Frog mineral systems

[Waterworks]

I was reading through the Aqua Magazine site today and noticed this:

http://aquamagazine.com/render_site.asp?sectionpath=173/183&processor=content

It says that King Technology's mineral system has gained EPA registration as a pool disinfectant and has been proven to allow for lower chlorine levels. I've never been impressed with mineral systems, especially after reading the feedback posted on this site. This seems to lend at least a tiny bit of credence to the system.

I figured I would start a discussion here about whether or not this registration will change anyone's mind about the product, or if it even proves anything.

Brad
www.waterworkspools.com

[CarlD]

The "mineral" is almost always copper and silver--like Nature2. Copper and kill algae but it's not a disinfectant. That means you cannot count on them to kill bacteria and viruses--you still need chlorine.

Will this help? Well, if you don't spend your chlorine killing algae, more can be devoted to sanitizing the pool. Maybe. Plus you are adding copper and silver to your water which fairly quickly is NOT a good thing.

Here's my analysis: You need one Nature2 cartridge per season. They run approximately $100 (some lower, some higher). How many gallons of bleach can you buy with that? Usually you can get plain bleach for $2 a gallon, so that's 50 gallons.

Now a good sized pool like mine, I may have to add a gallon every other day--so 50 gallons is good for 100 days of swimming. Where I live, the pool season is basically June, July and August, plus some give and take on either side. Approximately 100 days. So the cost of the N2 cart is just about the same as my TOTAL cost of bleach for the summer. I'd have to be using TWICE as much bleach (or 100 gallons), and have the N2 cut me back to 50 gallons just to break even. I'm not going to use 100 gallons because I'm testing my water every day or every other day and FIXING PROBLEMS IMMEDIATELY!

Notice I haven't even figured in the cost of the N2 unit, just the cart, and I'm STILL losing money on the deal.

My take? Waste of time and money.

[chem geek]

Presumably, copper is better at killing algae and silver does kill or inhibit the growth of some bacteria. Neither kill (deactivate) viruses. The idea that having a mineral system or an ozone or UV system require lower chlorine levels is only half-correct.

The reasoning is correct if talking about the total amount of chlorine needed IN RESERVE so that it doesn't get consumed too much and drop too low. The same thing could be said for having Borates or another algaecide in your pool.

The reasoning is incorrect if talking about the amount of chlorine needed to properly disinfect and kill bacteria and viruses. A certain minimum concentration is needed for this. So even if every single bug were killed in a perfect ozone or UV system (or SWG), you would still need a minimum chlorine level in the main body of the pool to kill bugs that stayed stuck to pool surfaces in biofilms and to kill them quickly before the water eventually makes it through the circulation system. [EDIT] If you brush the sides and bottom (all surfaces) of your pool regularly (weekly), then an ozone, UV or SWG system could probably be run at bare minimum disinfection levels and not experience algae -- users running 3 ppm FC and 80 ppm CYA seem to be in this category while other SWG users seem to require 5-6 ppm FC to avoid mustard/yellow algae. [END-EDIT]

Now in practice, it takes less chlorine to achieve a minimum disinfection level (corresponding roughly to 650 mV ORP or to 0.011 ppm hypochlorous acid) than it does to inhibit algae growth so in that sense one can indeed lower the chlorine level SOMEWHAT. So instead of needing a minimum of around 3.5 ppm FC at 30 ppm CYA to prevent algae (assuming 0.05 ppm HOCl is needed to prevent algae), you could have about 1.0 ppm instead (for 0.013 ppm HOCl), but this would be a bare minimum. Obviously, at higher CYA levels, more chlorine would be needed.

I agree with Carl that it's a waste of money -- not so much because it isn't effective, but because it is costly and has side effects (copper staining, mostly). Borates seem to have fewer problems and are not only an algaecide, but an additional pH buffer as well. If someone wants to spend money, then using PolyQuat 60% would be a better way to go and would accomplish much the same thing (PolyQuat 60% has some affect against bacteria as well, though it's better as an algae preventative and also as a clarifier).

Richard

[waterbear]

Frog is a silver/zinc system ( does not contain copper and is compatible with bromine too) but they have recently taken references to zinc off their website. Don't know why. Perhaps the zinc had no action. Silver is bacteriostactic but has very slow kill times. If you never used the pool then lower chlorine levels will work. If you use the pool then you need a FC reserve to handle what is introduced into the pool by each bather and you need fast kill times. Remember, every time someone enters a pool or hot tub they introduce sweat, urine and feces--no matter how clean they might be!
IMHO, it is not worth using!

[CarlD]

But the zinc means you won't have to buy Cold-Eze!

[myLABSpool]

FROG Report...
As an FYI this is my first full year with the FROG system and I have to say I'm pretty pleased with it. While a couple of my neighbors (without the frog) have each had a couple of rounds of algae and cloudy water and they've spent money and time clearing things up, mine with the FROG has remained crystal clear all summer. I've only had to keep the chlorinator full and I've added a little supplemental liquid cl (about 3 gallons between May 1 and July 5).

I only hope I can find the mineral pack for less than $100 next year. I also plan on using my own 1" cl tabs by refilling the empty packs that frog sells for $20 each.


18x36 IG vinyl
24k gallon
Sand filter

[SUNNYDAYS]

The main problem with the Frog system which I have is the it continually adds CYA (Stabalizer) to the pool. All the info on this site says the higher the CYA the higher levels of chlorine is needed to keep the water clean. I opened my pool this year with a CYA of a 100 and had to do a partial drain to lower it. Since I am still using the Frog system I am once again battling High CYA. Before coming to this site I did not know about high CYA levels, but I also never had any problems in 5 years (algae, pool turning cloudy).

Below listed is a website were I buy my mineral pack way under $100:


http://www.americasbestpoolsupply.com/view_cat.cfm?DepartmentID=2&CategoryID=210

Here is a link were I get my bac Pac Chlorine when you buy 12 it is about %13.32 a pac.

http://www.americasbestpoolsupply.com/view_cat.cfm?DepartmentID=2&CategoryID=210&PageNumber=2&StartRow=13

[myLABSpool]

SUNNYDAYS,
Thanks for the link on Americas Best Pool Supply regarding the FROG mineral cartridge. I just ordered my cartridge for the 2008 season on Sunday and it arrived on Tuesday. It was $76, which saved me about $45 instead of buying at my local pool store.

The Wx here in upstate NY has been great for 2 weeks, so we opened on April 19th!

Regards