Electrical Question

[y0manda]

I'm going to install an outlet for a friend in his backyard and he is going to run a 15amp pump for his koi pond. My question is can I use 12AWG wire for the 130' run from the panel off an unused 20 amp circuit? Also he may use the new outdoor outlet for other things like a 300 watt low voltage lighting transformer. If you do recommend a 10 AWG wire what size circuit breaker should be used. Thanks.

[CarlD]

Whatever you do, be SURE the circuit is ground-faulted AT THE BREAKER BOX IN THE HOUSE! Do NOT rely on a GFI outlet--it needs a GFI breaker.

[matt4x4]

12 awg for 130 feet is fine.

[CliffTex]

Carl,

What has been your experience to recommend not using the GFI at the outlet? I thought that as long as the outlet was well protected from weather that it would be good enough. I have an electrician friend that said the breakers were a pain and the outlet type would be fine. Granted he climbs poles and deals with high voltage everyday but I trust his word. Please tell me your reasons as I sure don't want the kiddo's to fry by accident.:eek:

[MarkC]

I think the idea of the breaker is to protect the whole system from the main breaker panel all the way out to the outlet. If you just use a GFI outlet and have a problem in the wiring (digging accident or whatever) your GFI outlet won't sense that and the wire will still be hot.

[CarlD]

Let's be precise. By breaker we don't mean a regular circuit breaker, but instead a GFCI circuit breaker. Given that clarification MarkC's reasons are the same as mine. The WHOLE circuit is ground-faulted, not just the outlet.

But I'm not a bonded electrician, not even an electrician. Why does your friend call them a pain? Is it that they are a pain to install or that they are unreliable? If it's the former, well that's too darn bad--I've installed them myself and they usually take up 2 slots for one GFCI breaker, instead of one. If it's that latter, I'd like to hear about the problems.

But he/she is your friend. You have to choose who's advice you take, and why.

[CliffTex]

Mark & Carl,

I appreciate your answers. I didn't even think about the 125' run underground and the GFI not working the whole distance. We have already had our doofus Golden Retriever dig up the wire once and start chewing on it. If nothing else it could save the bonehead from being fried if he does it when no one is home to catch him.

Thanks again and as always the input from the board is AWESOME!

Cliff

[Poconos]

The copper wire resistance for 130' would be about .42 ohm (1.62 ohm per 1000') for 12 gauge. With a 10 amp load that would be about a 4.2 volt drop. For 10 gauge this drops to 1.02 ohm per 1000'. The 12 gauge run should normally not be a problem. As for the run itself, when you bury it consider burying a PVC pipe for a conduit and making it big enough to handle anything else you may want to fish at a later time. A lesson I've learned over the years is if you dig a trench to bury something once, chances are you'll dig again later for something else. Do it once. Pipe is cheap and it would give your dog another obstacle.
Al

[CliffTex]

Thanks Al!

I had thought of using PVC at 1st but that would require me to dig a "Real" trench. Being I live on 3" of topsoil with rock below I couldn't afford the type of ditch digger to cut a large trench. So using the high pressure nozzle on my power washer, I was able to cut a perfect trench for the gray 12ga romex. The other bonus for this method was there was little disruption and tearing up of the lawn. The only drawback was some shallow spots due to the rock.

Can't wait for summer!

Cliff

[tribe_fan]

You need to find out what the code is in you area - I cant imagine getting deep enough with a pressure washer to satisfy the "depth rule" of outdoor wire that is not in PVC. I think it is 12 -18 inches. (note: I hope you used outdooor rated wire !!)

With PCV you can go much less. I want to say 6 inches, but I'm not sure.

I also agree with the other posters - I think the whole outdoor run should be GFI protected. But a GFI outlet offers just as much protection (to devices "downstream" as a GFI breaker).

[Poolidiot]

I will throw my 2 cents in on this topic, I am a Master Electrician and my advice would be for wiring around a pool you protect the WHOLE circuit not just the outlet(if the GFI outlet does trip then the outlet is dead NOT the wire, the wire would still be hot at the outlet, with the whole circuit protected with a GFI breaker then when it trips the whole circuit from the breaker is dead). 3" is NOT deep enough, code wise or saftey wise and you did say kids were involved right? I would also put the wire in conduit (PVC) also for safety reasons. Think of it this way...what cost more? renting a ditcher that will dig rock or having a small child or anyone for that matter getting hurt all because you didnt want to rent the equipment to do it right?

[CarlD]

I will throw my 2 cents in on this topic, I am a Master Electrician and my advice would be for wiring around a pool you protect the WHOLE circuit not just the outlet(if the GFI outlet does trip then the outlet is dead NOT the wire, the wire would still be hot at the outlet, with the whole circuit protected with a GFI breaker then when it trips the whole circuit from the breaker is dead). 3" is NOT deep enough, code wise or saftey wise and you did say kids were involved right? I would also put the wire in conduit (PVC) also for safety reasons. Think of it this way...what cost more? renting a ditcher that will dig rock or having a small child or anyone for that matter getting hurt all because you didnt want to rent the equipment to do it right?

Amen to that! Pools are darn dangerous things--you can't cheat or cut ANY corners on ANYTHING!

If anything goes horribly wrong, at a minimum 2 lives will be ruined--the person hurt, and yours--Plus everybody in both your lives. It's just not worth it.

I love my pool--I LOVE pools, but you gotta respect them.

[huskyrider]

3" is NOT deep enough, code wise or saftey wise and you did say kids were involved right? I would also put the wire in conduit (PVC) also for safety reasons. Think of it this way...what cost more? renting a ditcher that will dig rock or having a small child or anyone for that matter getting hurt all because you didnt want to rent the equipment to do it right?

I COMPLETELY agree with this.

I don't just apply this to underground near pools or ponds, I do it to all underground installations.

I've never ran, and never will run, UF Romex underground without placing it in conduit. The only wire I'll ever run without conduit is low voltage lamp wiring.

You could easily take a flat head shovel and waller your little trench wide enough for some 1/2" A&U (Grey sch 40 above and underground) electrical conduit without impacting the yard.

The risk of your install may seem slight but it isn't. I've hit more unprotected underground wire, with a shovel, in a lifetime of building pools than you could ever imagine. It always seems to be that the current homeowner had no idea where the electrical devices outdoors wiring laid in the yard.
Your friend may know where the energized wire is today, but I'm sure that they won't be telling the new buyer of the property at the title company during closing the sale to a new owner.


just my .02

see ya,
Kelly

[CliffTex]

Thanks for all the input! Looks like I have a spring project coming up...

[Steamer]

If you are going to go with 10 or even 12 gauge wire I would recommend using at least 3/4 inch PVC conduit, I just finished pulling 10 gauge wire through 1/2 inch PVC and it was a royal pain.