Spa emptying out?

[mkelley]

I have an concrete IG pool and spa combo, with solar heat that has worked just fine for over a year. With nothing that I've changed suddenly when I turn the spa on the water empties out of it instead of the jets shooting stronger.

I have an Aqualink that controls the spa/pump/solar, etc, but even when I turn this stuff on manually (at the control panel near the pump) it does this.

When they first set up the pool/spa they set the valves so that some water would always come in through the spa (I think he said about 20-30%) when the pump is running to clean the pool. I know the solar diverts about 50% of the pump pressure (I have a 2 1/2hp pump for the 15x30 pool so it's rather oversized).

I don't even know where to start to look for the problem here -- does anyone have a clue or do I need to call a pool repair person in?

[waste]

m, sounds like the valve(s) to send water to the spa have been turned off, so your spa drain is still pulling - but no water is going back to the spa. I can only speculate as to why this happened:
1) At some piont, the manual switch on the actuator valve controlling spa return was pushed to the opposite position (thereby reversing the movement of the valve), or manually set to close the valve and then left in the 'off' (center) position.
2) The actuator valve has become disconnected from the control pannel, or the wire sliced (weed whackers do this on a regular basis)

The first thing to check is the physical valve that controls the flow to the spa jets (the handle points away from the closed port). Also, can you see the valve moving when you activate it via the system? I'm also assuming that this is a 'spill-over spa', does it 'spill-over' when in normal pool filter mode?

I'm trying to picture your setup and what may have possibly gone awry, the more info you can provide about the setup will allow myself, and the others here, to help you better - without a costly service call ;) .
(BTW - by getting my response, you have "called a pool repair person in" - I just can't be there physically). Please let me know what you can about my ?s, and I'll offer more suggestions :) - Waste

[mkelley]

Thanks so much for your prompt reply and questions to point me in the right direction -- I'm working for the next couple of days and won't be able to check on anything until after that, but I'll then repost with what I find out.

[mkelley]

All right, after experimenting this weekend I'm not sure I still understand any of this but I can give you more information.

There are a number of valves in the pool loop, but I can identify the workings of the solar and pump valves. As a year has passed the markings identifying the other two valves are unreadable, but they appear to be the ones routing water to the pool and spa in various ways.

I manually switched the various choices I have -- pool mode, spa mode, and spa fill (I didn't do spa drain since the spa mode effectively does this and I have no doubt the spa drain one would as well :>). The various choices I made along with what it does to the valve I took photos of and they are posted here:

http://www.kelleytown.com/pool_valves.htm

You can click on any image to enlarge.

When I turn it to pool mode water appears to come into the spa and spills over into the pool, and the pool cleaning system (in floor) operates. When I turn it to spa mode the water drains out of the spa and as it reaches the bottom water is still coming in from the spa valves (but obviously not enough to offset the drain process) but it comes in very slowly. When I turn it back to pool mode the water shoots back into the spa vigorously until the spa fills back up and starts spilling again. When I turn it to spa fill it does fill the spa until it starts overflowing but even in spa fill it appears water is being routed to the in floor cleaning system.

Hopefully this will make sense to you. I will greatly appreciate any direction you can point me to.

[waste]

m, I've looked at the photos, I've thought, I've looked again and thought some more ... (I saw this last night and looked again today - {I'm currently having to fight w/ DW for computer time - I made the mistake of giving her an Ipod for an aniversary present, I should have stuck with jewelry :p }.

OK, so the glaring thing that I see from the pics is that #1 and #3 show the same valve settings. From this I surmise that the topmost line is the 'spa fill' (pic #2 shows it as open). I am also figuring that the suction side has an actuator valve on it, I'm thinking that it only opens the spa drain when in spa mode or spa fill, otherwise it's closed. From what I can see in the pics, the 2 pipies on the 'un-actuated' valve (bottom in the pics) feed the in floor system (2" line - the left one)and the wall rets and spa rets(the 1 1/2" - right one).

The best I can come up with is that you have a nearly identical set-up on the suction side (a spa line comming into the actuator valve with 2 (or more) suctions comming from the pool with a 'manual' turn valve between them. This could explain what's happening to your pool, but won't explain why you used to be able to use it without the spa draining :eek: , I'm obviousely missing a peice of the puzzle :(

If you need to use the spa this week, call in the pool pro, if it can wait - please post pics of the whole system, and we'll save you $ (if not time) :D

Sorry I can't be more help, but if you're willing to give me an 'e-tour' of your set-up, I can probably help you. With the pics I got a much better idea of what's going on, unfortunately not enough to tell you exactly what has happened (or is happening) - sorry

[mkelley]

Thanks for looking!

We're in no hurry to use the spa -- while we'd like to get in we haven't been able to for nearly a month now so a few more weeks won't hurt. I'll try this weekend to shoot all the images to give you a complete look at everything so you can make more sense out of it (I wish the labels hadn't rubbed off on the pipes, though).

Thanks again for helping out -- by next Monday I'll repost here the new image links.

[mkelley]

Well, at least I think I've nailed it down to where the problem is.

I rounded up a DVD I had made when the pool guy explained the entire system to begin with. The valves I imaged had nothing to do with this (well, nothing per se). There is one more automated valve located near the heater that is the spa/pool input controller.

This is an automated Jandy valve, and when I looked at it it was making an odd humming noise. I pushed at it and it moved like it was completing an operation and then stopped making noise. But nothing I do will move it further (automatically that is -- I can't even budge the thing manually).

So I'm guessing it has burned out, or gone bad, or gotten stuck or some thing I can't imagine. The wiring to the controller part looks okay (and is not in a place that could have gotten wrong) and it *was* making the humming so I'm guessing it still had power to it. But I'm going to have to call the pool guy$$$ into repair it, I guess.

Thanks for the offer to help, though -- it would have been nice to avoid the money but I'm pretty sure this isn't anything I could ever fix myself.

[hinejs]

The humming automated jandy valve, should have a toggle switch on the back-side. Flip it the other direction. Does the valve move? If yes, great, it may not need to be replaced, but adjusted. If no, then it will have to be replaced. A relatively simple repair. You could do yourself. The expensive part will be the automated valve itself. Youre probably looking for a JVA24 by Jandy ( a little more expensive), or a CVA24 by Pentair Water. Follow the black cord up and into the control panel and carefully remove the lead. Paying attention to where it was removed from. You'll also want to remove the actuactor itself (the motorized part) 4 screws hold in onto the 3 way jandy valve. Note the orientation of the actuator. You may also have to adjust the stops on the actuator. Open up the case on the old actuator and look at where the stops are located on the valve stem. Compare to the new actuator valve stem and adjust accordingly. By the way you're doing all of this with the power shut off to the entire pool / spa equipment panel. Its probably a 30 minture repair for a qualified tech, for you maybe an hour.

Holler if you need help. where are you located by the way?

[mkelley]

It has a switch on the side that's a three way toggle. It appears the center position is "off". Eventually, by switching it back through all three positions I was able to get the valve to move but not consistently. It moves and then stops and makes a sound like a gear stripping (which, come to think of it, is probably what is happening). I can get it to move further by nudging it manually, but then it does the same thing again. It will do this in both directions, never actually stopping until I flip the switch to off but sticking in one position while it "grinds".

I assume I'm looking for this kind of thing:

http://www.poolsupplydeals.com/Detail.bok?no=1299
or
http://www.onlinepoolsupply.net/automaticpool-controls/valveactuators-PEN263045.htm?id=10

at which prices makes me gulp (particularly considering this is only a little over a year old). Am I right in anticipating having to do this every year or two? Doesn't fill me with confidence (and I have at least two more of these automated valves in the system. Yikes!).

If all we're talking about is changing the wires and screwing this thing on (and perhaps dealing with the stops) I guess I could handle this myself. Just what would a tech charge for doing this for me, anyone got even a ballpark figure? And are there better places to buy these actuator thingees?

Thanks for the info -- I live in central Florida where it's actually going to be warm enough to swim by the end of the week.

[hinejs]

that's the one. remove tha actuator and see if it operates properly. it is possible that you have something stuck in the valve itself. the actuator retails $369 installed.

[mkelley]

Okay, I'll give this a shot (but it will have to wait until next weekend, as I'll be at work all this week). I assume I just unscrew it from the top of the valve somehow (valve handle just comes off?). I'll look more closely at it and see what gives.

The idea of something being stuck is interesting. And so if the valve can be purchased for $150 (or less) I guess you're saying a pool person charges $200 for 30 minutes of labor. I can see why you're in the pool repair business (<bg> actually, I truly appreciate you giving free help here. Also, I don't begrudge anyone making a living -- I used to make good money helping folks with computer problems, although I didn't make close to that per hour :>)

[mkelley]

Um, I'm back to this again (since I now have a lot more time to try and fix this as I retired "again").

Would this valve also work for this?

http://www.inyopools.com/Products/02100001004877.htm

As a rule I don't buy the cheapest thing I can find, but since the Jandy burned out in less than a year (with very little use) I'm thinking I'll get something cheap so if I have to I can replace it yet again. So does anyone know if this would be a good (or at least adequate) replacement for the Jandy?

[waste]

m, good to see you again, hope the holidays and new year were good for you - sorry it has to be about this same problem ;) The Goldline valve is the one I have most often seen and will fit the valve (the only thing I'm not sure about is whether the Jandy was 24v - a 5:1 step down transformer, but I'm pretty sure they're the same). I don't know if hinejs is still keeping an eye on the forum but I am here most afternoons and am more than willing to help as I can.

I wish you good luck with getting this thing finally fixed and will offer all the help I can.

[hinejs]

these actuators are all the same, pick your most affordable option. I've not found anyone to rebuild these units. but I've got about 8 of them on the shelf I was going to rebuild once I had a few more in the pile.

[mkelley]

Thanks, guys. I'll order one of these things tomorrow and as soon as it gets here (probably by the end of the week) I'll give it a shot on installation (hines was right on about the price -- I was quoted $370 for the fix and while I don't mind paying for someone to do it this time, I'm guessing this won't be the last time one of the three of these valves I have goes bad so I might as well learn how to do this myself).

[mkelley]

Just a final message to let anyone who might be interested (yeah, right) know how this came out.

I ordered and got the Goldline valve actuator replacement and installed it yesterday. It was actually simplicity itself, but it took a little longer than it should since the instructions were sketchy and I didn't quite understand the fairly obvious (now) part of the way the thing fit on the valve itself (there is one smaller tab/slot that is the only way a actuator or handle can fit properly, but if you don't know this you can spend a lot of time wondering why the @#$#! the thing doesn't fit on).

While I could have spent $140 and let someone else do it for me (and at my ancient age this isn't such a bad investment) I'm really glad I did it because I now understand the valves part of my pool *so* much better, including the electrical panel the stuff all wires to. And next time an actuator goes bad (and it *will* happen :>) I am confident I can replace it in just a few minutes.

Thanks to waste and hinesjs who helped on this thread -- you really helped a lot, guys, and I never would have tried this without your encouragement. It's nice not to be at the mercy of the Pool Guys (even though some of you *are* those guys <g>)

(And the wife and I enjoyed our spa time greatly last night -- the spa will tide us over until pool season starts in another two months).