HELP! Hayward Cartridge Filter

[momof2grlz]

Hi, everyone. I'm a new pool owner. We have a 12'x 25' IG fiberglass with Hayward Star Clear Plus cartridge filter, Hayward Max-Flo 1 HP pump and Reliance SWG.

With the cartridge installed, the filter pressure jumps to 28 p.s.i., there's very little suction at the skimmer (not enough to vacuum), the SWG panel shows "Insufficient Water Flow, and we are getting constant air bubbles out of the returns into the pool.

If we remove the cartridge, the filter pressure drops to 10 p.s.i., great suction at the skimmer, the SWG operates fine and no air bubbles. I"ve cleaned the cartridge a half dozen times, so I know it's not dirty.

Any suggestions on why the cartridge being installed would cause everthing to go haywire? I've removed the cartridge for now so the SWG can operate, but I know it will have to go back in - and then all of the problems will return.

Any help will be appreciated.

Chris

[SeanB.]

Is there any chance the filter is clogged? Have you tried cleaning it before putting it back in?

[eljefe281]

Is there more than one orientation in which the filter element fits?

What I mean to ask is - is there any chance you have it in "backwards"?

[waste]

Mom2g, I'm with seanb on the cart being clogged. It definately sounds like a high pressure hosing (of the cart) is in order. If you haven't cleaned it before, we will offer advice on how to do it. :)

[momof2grlz]

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I've cleaned the filter with a jet nozzle twice today. I don't know how else to clean it?

Chris

[hinejs]

How old is your filter? Perhaps its time for a replacement. Life expectantcy on filters with proper care is 3 seasons. A lot of folks have a hard time getting them really clean. Not just the outside of the filter element, but deep within each pleat. It'll take some time.

[momof2grlz]

The cartridge is only a month old - the pool and equipment are new. The cart looks like it fits in either way and I've tried it both ways with no difference in the result. We've already had trouble with the pump leaking and I'm really wondering if the pump isn't working well enough to pump the water through the cart. The pump works great without the cart in, but add the cart and maybe the pump can't handle the extra resistance. Does that theory make sense to any of the experts here?

Thanks for everyone's help. I'm way over my head. The PB keeps saying the pump and filter are operating correctly, but if there isn't enough pressure to operate the SWG, there's gotta be something wrong somewhere. I just don't know what.

[eljefe281]

More ideas of a completely uneducated nature:

Are you sure it's the right model of cartridge?

Is it possible the builder plumbed the filter backwards? Maybe the flow going out-to-in works just fine with no cartridge in, but not so well with the cartridge in.

Is it possible that there is some type of internal support ring that's missing from the filter? That is to say, when you put the cartridge in, it rests on the floor of the filter housing, covering up the outlet instead of being supported up above the outlet?

I wonder if the downstream check valve may be sticking. Without any cartridge in, the pump can force it open. With the cartridge in, the pump output is restricted to a point below the threshold required to overcome the sticking.

[SeanB.]

Is this a new pool, or just new to you? If it's new, your builder should be able to assist you in figuring out the cause of the problem. I would call them and ask for someone to come and check it out.

[divnkd101]

If it is a new pool... Be certain to verify position of filter in tank. Verify as well that no small chips of plaster, rocks, mud chunks have settled at the bottom of the tank after start up and were dislodged when you pulled the filter loose. Make sure to fully vent the filter once pump primes and fills. FYI, if this is a new pool, your pool builder should have gone through all steps of pulling/inspecting/ cleaning the filter and gone through the re-install process. Good Luck and keep us posted.

[ehorn]

On thing to check dependingon your filter. I work with a guy who had a similar problem. The builder had to send out the plumber and the guy was so embarassed. They had the filter plumbed backwards. So he turned the filter 180 degrees, reconnected it, replaced the filter, and poof fixed.

[momof2grlz]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. My PB is stymied on our problem. He can't find any leaks and the problems seem to work themselves out after the equipment runs for several hours. Now he's thinking perhaps the pump is slightly undersized for the run it has from the skimmer to the filter. He's going to try increasing the pump motor to 1-1/2 HP. I sure hope that resolves our problems. I'm afraid to touch anything, clean anything, open anything for fear of starting all the problems again.

I'll post again after the motor is increased. Keep your fingers crossed.

[momof2grlz]

Well, after replacing the 1 HP pump with a 1-1/2 HP thinking the run from the skimmer may have been a little too long and having no luck fixing the problem. The PB decided the problem must be a defective cartridge. We received the new cartridge yesterday, put it in and everything is working perfectly! YEAH! And the 1-1/2 HP pump really moves the water much better than the smaller pump.

Thanks for your help everyone! I relayed any and all suggestions to the PB since I was totally without a clue.

[CarlD]

I cannot understand why, with a pool as small as yours, you need a 1.5hp pump, especially now that you KNOW you had a defective cartridge in the filter. Your original pump was full-rated so it's got virtually the same specs as mine.

My pool is 16x40, rectangular, and is about 20,000 gallons. I run a 2 speed 1 hp Hayward Superpump with 240 square feet of solar panels (equiv of 3 20x4 panels) with NO problem. In fact, 95% of the time I run on low speed, where it's putting out far less than the full speed 1hp.

You didn't say which model filter you had--just which line of Hayward, so it's VERY important to make sure that your pump and its output don't exceed the capacity of your filter--or your new cartridge won't last very long either.

Clearly I think your builder's solution to increase the pump was a terrible one--the original pump was probably far too big. It has two problems. First, as I laid out before, it may well damage your filter. Second it will burn a lot more electricity. A 3/4 hp pump will take a little longer to turn your water over, but will cost about 1/3 as much to do so as a 1.5hp pump.

Now I'm assuming that the new pump is the same model Hayward in the bigger size.

However, if you are happy with the results, that's fine. I simply would not recommend a similar solution to other owners--other than replacing the cartridge.

On the sister site to this one, PoolSolutions.com, there is an article called "The Bigger Pool Pump Scam!" Tip#83

This is by Ben (PoolDoc) and he wrote it a few years ago, but it is just as relevant:

The BIGGER Pool Pump Scam!
Men are sometimes really into how big their car's engine is. Or, their boat. Or, their biceps. Or, their whatever. Even some women reportedly have been caught up in the 'bigger is better' excitement.

But, as has been often observed, it's not size that counts, but how you get the job done.
This is especially true with swimming pool pumps. Flow genuinely affects how well your pool operates. But the only thing pump horsepower always affects is how large your electric bill is! What really counts is not how BIG the pump is, but how well matched it is to the rest of the pool.
A typically (not optimally) designed 18,000 gallon pool with 1.5" pipes and a 3/4 HP pump will filter about 18,000 gallons every 8 hours -- and cost about $40 per month to operate.
The SAME exact swimming pool, with a 1.5 HP oversized pool pump, sold and installed by an gung-ho dealer or salesman, will filter about 24,000 gallons in 8 hours -- and cost about $80 per month. Doubling the HP, in this case, only increases filtration by 33%. But doubling the HP does double your electric bill. Ironically, it will also worsen filtration, since the filter will be 'overdriven'! In fact, many problems with sand filters (and the sand in them) result from matching small sand filters with big pool pumps. So the next time a pool salesman tells you he'll put a BIGGER pump on if you sign now, ignore him, and ask how many gallons per minute flow he guarantees the pool to deliver -- and whether the filter is rated for that flow.

[momof2grlz]

Thanks for your input, Carl.

On one hand, I'm glad the PB traded out the pump. We had already had (3) service calls for the pump leaking and I was afraid we got a lemon. Now I think the leaks were possibly being caused by the excess pressure caused by the defective cartridge.

At this point, after finding out the problem was the cartridge (C1200), I'm a little displeased that they upsized the pump before checking the cartridge. I know this pump will turn the water over much quicker, but I already figured it would use more electricity and seems to be slightly noisier. It also makes vacuuming a little more difficult because now there is sooo much suction.

I'm hoping the trade-off will be that the run time can be less since the water will be turned over quicker. Is there any logic to my optimism?

Thanks again. I'm so glad to have found this board. I'm such a novice and it's nice to have somewhere to ask questions and not be treated like a total idiot.

[CarlD]

Yes, your water will be turned over more quickly. That is the plus.

Your leaks probably were caused by pressure, but good joints don't leak. To lower the suction you could slightly shut the valve between the skimmer and the pump's intake.

[Poconos]

Another option is to downsize the impeller but the savings in electricity won't be the same as downsizing the motor. Just made a measurement on my 1 HP Hayward Superpump (circa 1997) and under full load the motor pulled 7.4 amps. Running dry at no load it dropped to 6.1A which is no great saving. A downsized impeller would be somewhere in between. I can't easily measure the true power consumption but the ratio should be close.
Al