How much is the TDS increased if Borax is added to 50 ppm

[smallpooldad]

How much is the TDS increased if Borax is added to 50 ppm in a 9000 gal pool?

Looking forward to your replies.

Aloha

[chem geek]

You shouldn't need to worry about TDS. When you add 50 ppm Borates (via Borax) to your pool AND add enough Muriatic Acid to restore the pH, the TDS increases by about 417, but much of this increase is with neutral Boric Acid, B(OH)3, so only an increase of about [EDIT] 139 [END-EDIT] will register on a conductivity meter (mostly as sodium from the Borax and chloride from the acid you need to add to lower the pH since the Borax raises it). So, the added TDS is just salt and Boric Acid, which is nothing to worry about.

If you are using the spreadsheet to calculate CSI and other parameters, you'll notice that the increased TDS barely nudges the index so is nothing to worry about.

Richard

[catnip]

Richard, I've seen several posts that indicate your spreadsheet is available and being used by others on this forum? Is this true? I've searched but can't find a reference / download location. Thanks.

[chem geek]

A couple of items. First, adding 50 ppm of Borates also increases the TA by 6.1 ppm. However, the buffering of pH from Borates is more than would be implied by this small TA increase because most of the Borate "buffer" is in the form of the neutral Boric Acid species that does not get reported in TA. Technically, at normal pool pH, the Borate buffer is more effective at resisting a rise in pH than a lowering of pH while the Carbonate buffer is the opposite, though the Carbonate buffer is closer to being equal in its resistance in both directions. The TA only measures the buffering capability to resist a lowering in pH (i.e. to resist acidic changes) and does not measure any buffering capacity to resist a rise in pH.

As for the spreadsheet, it may be found at the end of the first post in this thread (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=4236) in The China Shop under the heading "Spreadsheet for Detailed Calculations" where there is a link called PoolEquations.zip

This spreadsheet is in The China Shop for a reason. It is very complex, highly technical, and will scare away vampires. Nevertheless, if you ignore the lower part of the spreadsheet where the detailed calculations are performed and ignore all the chemical equations in the descriptions, it might be OK to use. There are no instructions with it and it is not designed for public consumption. My plan was to someday try and distill into simpler though somewhat less accurate formulas some of what is done so that it could be included into Michael's BleachCalc (he already has a lot of it -- though his acid/base calculations are only accurate at a fixed "typical" starting pH and TA) and also into a simpler spreadsheet form for Mac users (since BleachCalc is only for the PC). This is a large task that I have not gotten around to yet.

Richard

[smallpooldad]

Chem Geek,

Thank you, and yes you were correct I did have some (maybe lots according to the Chlorine usage) black and mustard algae which the chlorine is eating at an alarming rate.

My credit card is now up to over $50 for Wal-Mart's Ultra Bleach. I keep going back there so often they are beginning to look at me strangely. The plaster is beginning to look like the day it was put in, although the pool is still cloudy. Maintaing the level at 40 ppm. Did have to use a stainless steel brush to break it up as the nylon did not work; lost about 10 lbs scrubbing my little pool in full sun, would hate to do this to a larger pool.

Will let you know the full story once it is over; summize several dozen Ulta Bleach bottles more!

Aloha

[chem geek]

Thank you, and yes you were correct I did have some (maybe lots according to the Chlorine usage) black and mustard algae which the chlorine is eating at an alarming rate.
Well, keep at it. Remember, patience, patience, patience. Also remember that the chlorine loss during the day isn't the thing to look at since that's due to sunlight. It's the overnight loss that is key -- and of course seeing how your pool clears up. The cloudiness will go away as your filter removes what was in the pool. You might need to clean your filter (backwash if sand or DE -- spray clean if cartridge) if you had lots of this algae in the pool (you can monitor your filter pressure to see if it has gone up due to the filter capturing this algae).

Richard

[smallpooldad]

Chem Geek,

Will do, have backwashed it once for two and half minutes of whitish-grey powder. Patience you say don't you remember I am half-German, that word is not in our vocabulary

Getting dark in an hour so will pump up the chlorine and check in the morn. Hope that it will be the same; if it is, sell Wal-Mart's stock, as I will not be shopping there for a while!

Aloha

[catnip]

Richard, thanks for the pointers on the spreadsheet. I presumed it would be complex, but your very lucid explanations of what seems to be happening with pool water has rekindled my long-lost chemistry interest (lost after too many late evenings studying for quizzes). I'll use at my own risk!

smallpooldad, I've found that directly applying (rubbing/scrubbing) tri-chlor onto black algae patches seems to work quite well. And I've been using a stainless steel brush on mustard algae with good success also; the stainless brush seems to work better than a synthetic bristle brush.....but just my experience.

[smallpooldad]

Catnip,

I agree a stainless steel brish works better.

Aloha

[smallpooldad]

Well it was not black or mustard algae.

Chlorine remained stable over night, for 3 days, at 40 ppm, pumped it back up to 40 ppm every night for 3 nights. So me thinks maybe adding Yellow Treat (Sodium Bromide) will do the trick, as these two types of algae are thought to be chlorine resistant.

Added 5 oz of Yellow Treat and pretty much nothing happened. Chlorine got used up and went down to 30 from there it has been a very slow descent to 12 ppm of chlorine. At 12 ppm of chlorine last night and 12 ppm chlorine this afternoon at 3 pm, it has been very overcast and humid today and yesterday.

The stains were primarily lightened when I initially added Borax, and then when I scrubbed with a wire brush. However, since then really no change still some light stains in the plaster maybe from 9 years of not knowing the Pool Forum. Why did you not call me in those 9 years?

The Borate is around 70 ppm and this is why the chlorine stubbornly refuses to go down any faster. What are your opinions?

If that is the case, I will report back, and then maybe Chem Geek you have found the answer to controlling chlorine use.

Chem Geek, if this is true then be careful if you see any guys dressed in black suits with violin cases and wearing a yellow Wal-Mart smock!

Finally the pool is crystal clear, clearer than it has ever been.

Here are the figures:

Cl 12 ppm
Alk 80 ppm
pH 7.4 ppm (seems to be stuck at this number/has not moved for days and yes I neutralized the chlorine for a good reading)
Calcium 350 ppm
CyA 50 ppm
TDS 740 ppm

Aloha and thank you one and all.

[smallpooldad]

Well it was not black or mustard algae.

Chlorine remained stable over night, for 3 days, at 40 ppm, pumped it back up to 40 ppm every night for 3 nights. So me thinks maybe adding Yellow Treat (Sodium Bromide) will do the trick, as these two types of algae are thought to be chlorine resistant.

Added 4.5 oz of Yellow Treat and pretty much nothing happened. Chlorine got used up and went down to 30 from there it has been a very slow descent to 12 ppm of chlorine. At 12 ppm of chlorine last night and 12 ppm chlorine this afternoon at 3 pm, it has been very overcast today and yesterday.

The stains were primarily lightened when I initially added Borax, and then when I scrubbed with a wire brush. However, since then really no change still some light stains in the plaster maybe from 9 years of not knowing the Pool Forum. Why did you not call me in those 9 years?

The Borate is around 70 ppm and perhaps this is why the chlorine stubbornly refuses to go down any faster. What are your opinions?

If that is the case, I will report back, and then maybe Chem Geek you have found the answer to controlling chlorine use.

Chem Geek, if this is true then be careful if you see any guys dressed in black suits with violin cases and wearing a yellow Wal-Mart smock!

[smallpooldad]

Now I'm worried, just read your other reply on the TGT Debate stating that bromide never goes away. If this is so why is the Chlorine holding? Or, is it possible the bromate can get eaten up?

Looking forward to your reply.


Aloha

[chem geek]

Bromide (and bromates) and Borates are two completely different things. You have Borate, Boric Acid, Borax or Boron (take your pick as all terms could be used) in your pool, not Bromide or Bromates. I know this is confusing -- just focus on the first three letters -- Bor... is the stuff that helps prevent and kill algae and helps stabilize pH (and makes the pool sparkle) while Bro... is the alternative sanitizer to chlorine, often used in hot tubs, and should not be used in a pool unless you permanently want your pool to use Bro... (i.e. you have to drain your pool to remove Bro...).

The high level of Borates in your pool will help prevent algae and kill some of it as well. That means that the chlorine won't have to so chlorine usage will be less because of it, at least in terms of killing new algae. However, the chlorine will still try to oxidize the algae that is there even if much of it is dead and could get somewhat consumed because of that. If you find that it isn't dropping, then the algae is dead and the easy-to-oxidize stuff has been taken care of so all that is left is to filter out the dead solid cells and you are done. It sounds like your water finally turned clear so that's that!

As for recommending anything different than chlorine, I would say that isn't true. Though the Borates (Borax) may have helped speed up the killing of the algae, the decision to use Borates is a yes/no decision for whether you want your pool to always have borates or not. You cannot get rid of the borates in your pool except by dilution (not that you'd want to get rid of Borates as they generally do no harm, but I suppose if you built up more than 100 ppm you might want to dilute to cut back). So using Borates isn't something to tell people to do when they have an algae problem -- it's a separate decision and yes, if they already decided to use Borates then it appears that they will have less problems with algae.

And yes, using Borates reduces chlorine consumption (as waterbear found to be true), but that won't put Wal-Mart out of business. You'll just need to buy less chlorine...I'm sure Sam's folks will find other things to sell to you.:D

Richard

[smallpooldad]

Thank you for your reply.

In the last message above I should have typed "is it possible the bromide", sorry for the confusion.

Until Wal-Mart sells "Marmite", Britain's gift to the culinary world (Vegemite in Australia) I will not be going back, except for chlorine.

But I did put Yellow Treat 4.5 oz (Sodium Bromide) in the pool. Will this, or has this gone away, due to the large amount of chlorine I used? Or do I have to drain it? Please say no.

Lastly I will not add any more Borax (Borate) to the pool until it shows 50 ppm. Now have the AqauCheck test strips, they arrived two days ago.

Aloha from a hot and humid Hawaii that only the mosquitos could love today.

[chem geek]

But I did put Yellow Treat 4.5 oz (Sodium Bromide) in the pool. Will this, or has this gone away, due to the large amount of chlorine I used? Or do I have to drain it? Please say no.
Well, I'm sorry to tell you this, but the Sodium Bromide indeed adds Bromide to the pool and the disinfecting chlorine (HOCl) in your pool will "reactivate" the bromide (Br-) to hydrobromous acid (HOBr) converting the disinfecting chlorine (HOCl) into chloride (Cl-). And unfortunately there isn't much you can do to get rid of it. It's not horrible having the bromide in your pool, it just means that you've got a secondary sanitizer that is less effective than chlorine and that whenever that sanitizer gets used, the chlorine will get used up to regenerate it. Not terrible, but not great either.

Perhaps someone else can tell you more and maybe find a way to get rid of the bromide/hypobromous acid or give you better news than I just did.

Richard

[waterbear]

If my understanding of the chemistry involved is correct then inorgainic sodium bromide will eventually form bromates (which do not 'reactivate' into hypobromous acid) and then you will have a chorine pool again. It is the organic form of bromine found in bromime tabs that contain dimethylhydaytoin that sticks around forever.
Ben (PoolDoc) summed it up on this PoolSolutions page
http://www.poolsolutions.com/tips/tip10.html

Hope this helps.

[chem geek]

Thanks Evan. OK, according to Ben's post it sounds like the bromide can be removed with shocking on a sunny day, perhaps repeatedly. The organic form would have the organic part stick around and be hard to get rid of, but the Yellow Treat was just sodium bromide so didn't have the organic part. So that's good news.

So, smallpooldad, the fact that you were at high shock values after adding Yellow Treat probably means you got rid of most or all of your bromide, especially if your pool had exposure to sunlight. Wheh! That was a close call!

Richard

[smallpooldad]

Gentlemen,

Yes that was a close call and I thank you both for the detailed follow up.

This morning the chlorine is down to 10 ppm. Would agree with you that the bromide most probably got used up by those previous high levels of chlorine, thank goodness.

Aloha, and the weather is sunny with a few clouds at 78 F, relatively low humidity thanks to the trades at 10-15 MPH.

[smallpooldad]

Well it has been a whole month since borates were added to 70 ppm.

Here are the results:

The pool is very clear.
No algae but then I shocked the living daylights out of it.
pH increases slowly rising from 7.4 to 7.6 every 4th to 5th day, compared to daily or at best every second day.
Chlorine usage has dropped by 1/3rd, it is maintained at 6 on the high end, to 4 on the low.
Adding the "Yellow Stuff" has helped remove the yellowish stains, albeit very slowly. Will add as directed every 60 days. This it seems is a long slow process.

Any results Chemgeek on your trial with "Jack's stuff", reference post

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=2771 ?

So borates definetly help with clarity, lower muriatic acid usage, and lower chlorine usage. Walmart has downgraded my Platinum status to Peasant, as I now no longer shop there as often. But my wallet is a lot happier.

Hope this helps.

Aloha and thank you all for your kind help.

[chem geek]

Any results Chemgeek on your trial with "Jack's stuff", reference post

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=2771 ?

Neither of the two places that Jack's told me would have their stuff truly carried Jack's Magic. So I either have to order directly from Jack's or just use what I believe he is using which is an oxidizer (probably sodium perborate, but I'd rather use potassium monopersulfate) followed by a dry acid (probably sodium bisulfate). The weather is getting too cold to swim now so unless we have another warm spell (doubtful) I'll probably wait until spring before doing anything about this.

For now, I'm just going to measure my CYA and see how it does over the winter (to see if I get the same drop as others report -- I'll measure my calcium as a proxy for dilution rates).

And congratulations on the success using the borates. It would appear that it does take over a lot of the algaecidal usage away from chlorine while also acting as an additional pH buffer. I plan to add salt and borates to my pool in the spring.

Richard

[chem geek]

Adding the "Yellow Stuff" has helped remove the yellowish stains, albeit very slowly. Will add as directed every 60 days. This it seems is a long slow process.

Jack's Magic "Yellow Stuff" is 98% Sodium Bromide (see this link (http://www.focuspools.com/products/JacksMagic/Algaecides-THE-YELLOW-STUFF.asp) or look on the bottle for verification). Adding bromide to chlorine pool is a bad thing since once your pool is a bromide pool, it stays a bromide pool (unless you shock with chlorine repeatedly in sunlight). What you have been doing by adding "Yellow Stuff" is replacing chlorine in your pool with bromine just as you did earlier with "Yellow Treat".

Chlorine converts bromide to bromine, but uses up chlorine in the process:

HOCl + Br- --> HOBr + Cl-

Unfortunately, bromine is not as good an oxidizer nor disinfectant as chlorine which is part of the reason the above reaction occurs in the first place. When the bromine then disinfects or possibly oxidizes something, it does the following:

3HOBr + 2NH3 --> N2(g) + 3H+ + 3Br- + 3H2O

but then the bromide uses up chlorine as shown before.

The only plus side to having the bromine is that it will not break down in sunlight the way that chlorine would (even with CYA it breaks down, but more slowly) and it doesn't outgas as quickly which is why it is often used in hot tubs. It theoretically kills yellow/mustard algae, hence "yellow" in the product name, but chlorine shocking and borates kill algae too.

Read this post (http://www.poolsolutions.com/tips/tip10.html) from Ben for more info (the same link Evan provided earlier). Apparently, repeated shocking of your pool with chlorine in the sunlight may remove your bromine. The "Yellow Stuff" is an algicide, NOT a stain remover, but your Borates and PolyQuat would do a much better job at preventing and killing algae. Either the stains are fading on their own or the oxidizing of bromine and chlorine are fading them (in which case simple shocking of chlorine should do the trick over time) or the Borates are fading them (killing algae). If you put a Trichlor tablet on the stain and it fades, then it was likely algae; otherwise if it's a metal stain, then you need to use one of Jack's Magic other products for stain removal, but not The Yellow Stuff.

If some algae stain doesn't come off with chlorine shock plus possibly brushing, you can try using PolyQuat. At least with PolyQuat algicide, it won't interfere quite as much with the chlorine though we have found that it does consume some of the chlorine but apprently converts to a byproduct that still inhibits or kills algae (see this post (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?p=40356#post40356) for more info).

If I were you, I would just stick with the Borates and forget adding other chemicals to your pool such as the "Yellow" stuff. If the stains continue to fade, then you just need patience. If they don't, then try PolyQuat first and then the Jack's Magic stain removal products (but NOT "The Yellow Stuff").

Richard

[smallpooldad]

Chemgeek,

Thank you for the quick reply.

I think I am going a litlle "Cuckoo" as we say in the UK, I actually added Universal Chemical's Stain Treatment which I believe is 100% Oxalic Acid not Yellow Treat. This does seem to be helping along with the chlorine and borates.

If you move to Hawaii then you can do your pool chemical testing year round!

Aloha

[mbar]

This thread is great. There is a lot of great info. Next year when I open my pool I plan on running it with high borates. This way I will be able to keep the chlorine very consistant, and low, without getting algae and having to shock. Having a fiberglass pool I have found through my own experience that high chlorine along with high ph will stain the surface of the pool. This way with the borates, even while using the bleach, the ph should not drift up easily. I have also found that the easiest way to keep a stain free fiberglass pool is to add as little as possible (in the form of different chemicals) to the water. It is tough to follow how all of the different chemicals will react with each other. Therefore the less is better. You should be able to maintain a safe and stainfree pool by keeping the water balanced with Bleach, borax and baking soda. Of course you need stabalizer if you have an outdoor pool. Keeping up on the water testing will keep you from getting any algae, so you won't even need to shock. If you keep your chlorine in line with the "best guess" chart, you don't even need algacide. I would suggest a metal sequesterer if you have a fiberglass pool, or if you have a well. Keeping the ph at the low level, along with the right amount of chlorine for the amount of stabalizer will keep any metals from falling out of the water onto the surface of the pool. Many pools get stained when shocking - if the stains are caught early, bringing the ph down to 7 and adding a metal sequesterer will fade the stains. Rust is different than other stains. I have found that using a very fine sandpaper on fiberglass will remove the rust easily - using a pumace stone on plaster will do the same thing - and using a "Magic eraser" will do the same on vinyl. I am sure there are other chemicals that will remove rust, but my suggestion would be to try these first, because using these tools would not put any chemicals in the water. I love this forum, because it offers so much imput - It is great to learn from each other's experience. I have learned so much - I can't wait to add the borates next summer - Well besides that, I can't wait till the warm weather again:) Smallpooldad - send me a little sunshine through your thoughts, while we "enjoy" the frozen north:)

[waterbear]

Just want to add that the borates are still working great for me! I have had no downside to using them and a LOT of benefits!