Under Water Vinyl Wall Stains

[CoffeeBean]

Hi,

I have a 16 X 32 AG vinyl Doughboy. Last winter I closed with shock & Polyquat. This spring I opened to pea soup. Once I got the water cleaned up and sparkling I could see a brownish greenish stain from where the winter water line was down to the wall/bottom angle.

I converted to the BBB method this year and spent the first 2-3 weeks in shock mode trying to see if it would bleach it away in case it was algae residue. Didn't phase it. I've tried brushing, using a scrubbie, etc., but nothing takes it off. It's below the water line so using anything on the sponge just washes away as soon as I dunk it in.

Over the summer I <think> that it has faded a little. It's more mottled in appearance than it was initially. It even might have disappeared from the top of the stain line down a couple of inches.

I use Ben's kit and, once I got the chems balanced, have been able to keep the water sparkling and clean.

I have read many posts that talk of Vit C, Jack's stuff, etc., but haven't seen anything related to under water stains in a vinyl liner.

I saw some that related to metal in the water but I don't have any way of testing for that and haven't seen any metal testing equipment in local pool stores.

I do have a heater but didn't run it at all last year. I have used it this last month or so.

I'm getting ready to close for the season (live in western PA. It was 40 degrees last night) so am wondering what I can do so that it doesn't get worse over the winter.

Any help gratefully appreciated.

CoffeeBean

[doggie]

I'm curious if you have a fiberglass step section. If so, did they stain too?

[CoffeeBean]

Hi,

During the winter I didn't have any steps in the pool. I take them out when I close up. This is an AG pool but I have a surround deck.

CoffeeBean

[doggie]

I'm thinking that you've got some metal staining happening. I've seen a few threads on how to get rid of those. Do a little searching here, you'll find the answers. (sorry, I don't have time at the moment) :)

[mbar]

You can test to see if they are metal by crushing up some vitamin C tablest and rubbing them on the stain., or use some ph down in a sock and rub it on the stain. IF the stain goes away with either of these, then it is from metals. Let us know how you make out:)

[CoffeeBean]

mbar,

Will this work underwater? I'm thinking that the Vit C or whatever will be washed away immediately upon immersion. OR will enough remain to use this as a test?

[waste]

I don't want to step on Marie's toes, but a small amount in a small area should indicate whether it's working.

[mbar]

Waste is right, you just need to put it on the stain for a while - you can even hold some in your hand and rub it on the stain. Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) will immediately lift the stain when it comes in contact with it. You will see a little clean spot where the vitamin c hits the stain if it is a metal stain. You can read through this stains and metals forum to read more about it. Feel free to ask any other questions you have:)

[CoffeeBean]

Well, I had a real "Aha!" moment when I put the Vit C against the stain. I came away clean as a whistle! That's why I love you all on this forum. I'd be totally lost about this pool without you guys.

An interesting thing also happened while I was in the pool trying out the vitamin C.

I have tried using a scrub sponge in the past with zero results. Today I accidentally brushed my foot along the coping edge and noticed that some of the stain came off so I tried the sponge on it.

I made my way all around the 16 X32 using my foot and the sponge (got lots of aquatic leg lifts in today!) and found that some of this stuff comes off down at the bottom of the pool. It didn't at all farther up the wall.

When I took the sponge out to look at it, there was rust colored stuff on it that rinsed out. Is this still metal too or do I have some algae?

[CoffeeBean]

I've been cruising the forum re: metal stains and see that I can order Ascorbic acid from a chemical company. I guess that beats crushing vit c tablets. Does anyone know how long it takes to get the stuff?

What happens to the water once all that ascorbic acid is introduced?

My numbers today are a little skewed since we've had a lot of rain recently:

FC - 6.5
CC - 0
TC - 6.5
pH - 7.3 or 7.4 (It's between the 7.2 & 7.5 marks on the container)
Alk - 100 (down from 120)
CYA - 30
temp - 82 F (I have a heater that keeps it at this)

What should I be doing first so I don't get things too out of whack?

Thanks.

CoffeeBean

[doggie]

Read about it here http://www.focuspools.com/store/productdetail.asp?product=NCI48

I have no idea if that's a good price or not. I just wanted to show you some info on dosage and usage.

[Simmons99]

You can also use a metal sequesterant (like Jack's Magic) and lower your PH - sometimes that will lift a stain without the absorbic acid - but some experts (like mbar) can help you better.

Also - you want to get your fill water tested for copper and iron and probably keep some sequesterant in the water to prevent this in the future. Good luck!

[CoffeeBean]

Doggie,

Thanks for the site info. I cruised around on the web a bit and couldn't find another source for the StainFree and the Metal Free was cheaper on your site than a couple of others I checked.

Simmons99,

Where can I find equipment for testing for metals or do I need to do that since my Vitamin C test was "positive"?

Must I take the water sample to my (gulp) local pool store to have it done?

Thankx.

CoffeeBean

[CoffeeBean]

Also, as I read and read other posts....

Smallpooldad posted back in June `06 that it's necessary to drain the pool after using AA and a metal sequesterant. Ummm...I don't think I can do that. It costs well over $500.00 for a tanker of water and that doesn't fill the pool.

Also I read somewhere that the water temp has to be low. Mine's at a steady 82 F because I've had the heater on.

I'm getting more confused and more reluctant to do anything for fear I screw things up royally.

Advice please?

CoffeeBean

[doggie]

I haven't read anything about lowering the temp. And if you drain the water, you might end up right back where you started if there's metal in the fill water. Just be sure your chlorine level is low while you do all this. Otherwise your water will get very cloudy.

Don't worry, things will be fine. :)

[mbar]

No, you don't have to drain the pool! Small pool dad did a different stain treatment. I will print the ascorbic acid treatment - ascorbic acid is vitamin C. The fact that the vitamin C took the stain off makes me believe that the stain is from metals. The stuff you were able to take off with a sponge was either algae, or metals that fell out of solution into more of a solid that was able to be washed off. You may have algae, because you need a minimum of 8ppms of chlorine in your pool at all times when you have a cya of 100 in order to have a really sanitized pool. Here is a copy of the best guess chart:

Ben's 'best guess' FC/Stabilizer table for algae free operation of OUTDOOR pools -- as of July 2003 --

Use the info in this chart to help you figure out what levels of chlorine you need to maintain in your pool based on the amount of CYA (cyanuric acid, also called stabilizer) that you have in your pool. (FC = free chlorine)

Stabilizer . . . . . . Min. FC . . . . Max FC . . . 'Shock' FC
=> 0 ppm . . . . . . . 1 ppm . . . . . 3 ppm . . . . 10 ppm
=> 10 - 20 ppm . . . . 2 ppm . . . . . 5 ppm . . . . 12 ppm
=> 30 - 50 ppm . . . . 3 ppm . . . . . 6 ppm . . . . 15 ppm
=> 60 - 90 ppm . . . . 5 ppm . . . . . 10 ppm . . .. 20 ppm
=> 100 - 200 ppm . . . 8 ppm . . . . . 15 ppm . . .. 25 ppm

Here are two links you can get ascorbic acid. The link from the "chemistry store" gets you the ascorbic acid faster, but the other link lets you get a smaller amount.:

http://www.chemistrystore.com/Ascorbic_Acid.htm

http://www.msm-msm.com/store/agora.cgi?cart_id=%%cart_id%%&product=Vitamins&user4=Ascorbic%20Acid

Here is the ascorbic acid treatment:

Here is the ascorbic treatment:
You will need about a half to one pound of ascorbic acid per 10,000 gal. I like to go lighter on it and see if all the

Put the filter on circulate.
Use a cup and go around the perimeter of the pool and drop it down the sides as you go.
Let the ascorbic acid circulate for 1/2 hour. You will be amazed how the stain just disappears before your eyes.

If the stain is not all gone, leave the filter in circulate and add more ascorbic acid close to where you still see stain. Leave it in circulate until all of the stain is gone. (add more ascorbic acid if it circulates for 1/2 hour and there is still stain)

When the stain is gone, add enough sequestering agent for the volume of your pool - more is better than not enough.

Put the filter back on filter and leave it on 24/7.

The ascorbic acid will bring your ph down, after 24 hours you can start to bring up your ph and alkalinity - use baking soda first, it will raise both ph and alk. Make sure you test in between, because you don't wantyour ph to go any higher than 7.2. If your alkalinity is in range, and you still need to raise your ph, use Borax to take it up to no higher than 7.2. After 48 hours you can start to bring up your chlorine. You want to do this slowly. It will take a lot of chlorine - I prefer to use bleach only at this time, and try to take it up to your minimum chlorine for your cya according to the "best guess chart" Do not shock! Do not shock for at least 2 weeks! Make sure you keep your ph low for (7.2) for a week or two - it won't be hard because the ascorbic acid will help it stay low. Once your chlorine starts to hold, it means that you have used up the ascorbic acid in the water and it will be easy to rebalance the pool back to your regular parameters.

If you plan to close your pool soon, I would suggest you wait till the spring to do the stain treatment. I have already closed with stains and opened to a stain free pool, so you may just want to enjoy your pool till you close and deal with it next year when you open.

If you have any other questions feel free to ask:)

[CoffeeBean]

Thank you so much mbar & everyone for your help!

Just a couple more questions:

Where/how do I get the water tested for metals?

mbar, you said:

"You may have algae, because you need a minimum of 8ppms of chlorine in your pool at all times when you have a cya of 100 in order to have a really sanitized pool."

My CYA is 30. It's been ranging form 20 to 30 all summer. Did you think mine was 100?

Unfortunately, when I ordered more CYA from Ben earlier in the summer I thought I was getting two 4oz bottles but got two 2 oz bottles instead. Now I'm out and can't test it anymore. It took nearly 4 weeks to get the last order. Is there any other really quick source for CYA reagent? Our local pool stores just looked at me strangely when I asked if they carried it.

Mbar, you mentioned waiting until spring to clean up the stains. So it won't hurt it any if I close with the stains on the walls?

Thanks again for your continuing support and help. By the time I get this all figured out my kids will have kids of their own! (They're 11, 15 & 16 now)

CoffeeBean

[mbar]

Oops! I read the cya as the alkalinity, down from 120 to 100:eek: Sorry. Yes, you can wait till next year to clean up the stains - they will come off then, and maybe they will go away over the winter. You can get your water tested at some pool stores, or you can sometimes get it tested by your city. Where does your water come from? If it is from a well, then you will need to get it tested on your own, if it is city water they should be able to tell you what is in it. You won't need anymore cya regent until next spring. If your cya has been running around 30, then you are at the low end of cya and even if you are using trichlor pucks you probably didn't come up much. If I were you, I would close the pool this year, and before you open next year get some ascorbic acid, sequesterer, and new regents so you will be ready to go. You can do the stain treatment before you get your whole pool balanced, this way you will only have to do it once. As soon as it opens, take care of the algae (if the water is green) first. Then check to see if there is stains - I have opened to a stainfree pool every year, even if I had some at the end of the summer before. If you do have stains, do the stain treatment with sequesterer. Then balance the water, then have a wonderful summer:)

[CoffeeBean]

Thank you so much, mbar and all the others who have responded to my plight. I feel much more confident about dealing with the stains - next spring. That takes such a load off of my mind.

Gratefully,

CoffeeBean

[kingbud]

Ahhh, the mellow, friendly vibe of the PoolForum. So nice to be back. Course, I wouldn't be here reading if there wasn't just the teensiest little problem of my own. Hmmmm.... Vitamin C tablets, eh? Wouldn't hurt to have a little stash of those around the house anyway, and they're certainly not very expensive. :)

[CelticDaddio]

What is a sequestering agent?
Ed


No, you don't have to drain the pool! Small pool dad did a different stain treatment. I will print the ascorbic acid treatment - ascorbic acid is vitamin C. The fact that the vitamin C took the stain off makes me believe that the stain is from metals. The stuff you were able to take off with a sponge was either algae, or metals that fell out of solution into more of a solid that was able to be washed off. You may have algae, because you need a minimum of 8ppms of chlorine in your pool at all times when you have a cya of 100 in order to have a really sanitized pool. Here is a copy of the best guess chart:

Ben's 'best guess' FC/Stabilizer table for algae free operation of OUTDOOR pools -- as of July 2003 --

Use the info in this chart to help you figure out what levels of chlorine you need to maintain in your pool based on the amount of CYA (cyanuric acid, also called stabilizer) that you have in your pool. (FC = free chlorine)

Stabilizer . . . . . . Min. FC . . . . Max FC . . . 'Shock' FC
=> 0 ppm . . . . . . . 1 ppm . . . . . 3 ppm . . . . 10 ppm
=> 10 - 20 ppm . . . . 2 ppm . . . . . 5 ppm . . . . 12 ppm
=> 30 - 50 ppm . . . . 3 ppm . . . . . 6 ppm . . . . 15 ppm
=> 60 - 90 ppm . . . . 5 ppm . . . . . 10 ppm . . .. 20 ppm
=> 100 - 200 ppm . . . 8 ppm . . . . . 15 ppm . . .. 25 ppm

Here are two links you can get ascorbic acid. The link from the "chemistry store" gets you the ascorbic acid faster, but the other link lets you get a smaller amount.:

http://www.chemistrystore.com/Ascorbic_Acid.htm

http://www.msm-msm.com/store/agora.cgi?cart_id=%%cart_id%%&product=Vitamins&user4=Ascorbic%20Acid

Here is the ascorbic acid treatment:

Here is the ascorbic treatment:
You will need about a half to one pound of ascorbic acid per 10,000 gal. I like to go lighter on it and see if all the

Put the filter on circulate.
Use a cup and go around the perimeter of the pool and drop it down the sides as you go.
Let the ascorbic acid circulate for 1/2 hour. You will be amazed how the stain just disappears before your eyes.

If the stain is not all gone, leave the filter in circulate and add more ascorbic acid close to where you still see stain. Leave it in circulate until all of the stain is gone. (add more ascorbic acid if it circulates for 1/2 hour and there is still stain)

When the stain is gone, add enough sequestering agent for the volume of your pool - more is better than not enough.

Put the filter back on filter and leave it on 24/7.

The ascorbic acid will bring your ph down, after 24 hours you can start to bring up your ph and alkalinity - use baking soda first, it will raise both ph and alk. Make sure you test in between, because you don't wantyour ph to go any higher than 7.2. If your alkalinity is in range, and you still need to raise your ph, use Borax to take it up to no higher than 7.2. After 48 hours you can start to bring up your chlorine. You want to do this slowly. It will take a lot of chlorine - I prefer to use bleach only at this time, and try to take it up to your minimum chlorine for your cya according to the "best guess chart" Do not shock! Do not shock for at least 2 weeks! Make sure you keep your ph low for (7.2) for a week or two - it won't be hard because the ascorbic acid will help it stay low. Once your chlorine starts to hold, it means that you have used up the ascorbic acid in the water and it will be easy to rebalance the pool back to your regular parameters.

If you plan to close your pool soon, I would suggest you wait till the spring to do the stain treatment. I have already closed with stains and opened to a stain free pool, so you may just want to enjoy your pool till you close and deal with it next year when you open.

If you have any other questions feel free to ask:)

[mbar]

A sequestering agent is a chemical that binds with the metals in the water to keep them in suspension so that they don't precipitate out and land on the surface of the pool making an ugly stain. There are many on the market - Jack's Magic, ProTeam, Metal Free, look for something that says it controls metals in the water, and it should say it is a sequestering agent. These are a few that I have tried, and they work. You need a sequestering agent in the water if you are getting rid of stains so that the metal that is lifted off the surface of the pool will not just precipitate out again. It is really hard to get rid of metals in the water completely:mad:, so just keeping them in suspension by having them bind with a sequestering agent is good:D. Let me know if you have any other questions

[CelticDaddio]

You may have algae, because you need a minimum of 8ppms of chlorine in your pool at all times when you have a cya of 100 in order to have a really sanitized pool.


Now I understand why I keep having algae problems.... I haven't been accounting for CYA levels when adjusting my chlorine. Duh!




Use a cup and go around the perimeter of the pool and drop it down the sides as you go.


I crushed about a dozen vitamin C tablets yesterday, put it in a sock, and rubbed it on the steps.... voila no more stain. So I want to try the ascorbic acid treatment. I have one question though....

Do I take a cup of the ascorbic acid and pour it in at the edge of the pool all the way around my pool and let it sink/disolve? I have a 20' x 40' vinyl IG, 30000 gal pool. That would be a perimeter of about 120'. Over what distance, should I distribute the cup of ascorbic acid? Or am I getting too geeking here...? How much do you think I would need? For the whole pool. I have look at some of the stuff to put on steps at the pool store but it seems very expensive ... I would need two bottles of StainStuff mentioned above and that would be around $60.

[mbar]

There are two links in the post you copied that are a cheaper way to get ascorbic acid - the second website you can get 5lbs for $45.
http://www.msm-msm.com/store/agora.c...scorbic%20Acid (http://www.msm-msm.com/store/agora.cgi?cart_id=%%cart_id%%&product=Vitamins&user4=Ascorbic%20Acid) you will need about 3lbs. I use a pound for every 10,000 gal. You can go around the perimeter of the pool, it doesn't have to be exact - that's why you put the pump on circulate for about an hour, so that it mixes well, and will take the all the stains off. Don't forget that once all of the stains are gone, you have to put in the sequestering agent, so that the metals can bind with it, so that they dont' fall out again when you start to add chlorine. Let me know if you have any questions. Don't feel like you should have known about the cya chlorine thing - the pool stores don't ever tell you that - and half of them don't even know it themselves:eek: Stick with this forum and you will be able to have a clean clear pool all summer by taking care of it yourself:)

[CelticDaddio]

Thanks for the info. Just order 4 pounds... As for a sequestering agent, is that something I have to buy at a pool supply store, or is there a grocery store equivalent?

Ed


There are two links in the post you copied that are a cheaper way to get ascorbic acid - the second website you can get 5lbs for $45.
http://www.msm-msm.com/store/agora.c...scorbic%20Acid (http://www.msm-msm.com/store/agora.cgi?cart_id=%%cart_id%%&product=Vitamins&user4=Ascorbic%20Acid) you will need about 3lbs. I use a pound for every 10,000 gal. You can go around the perimeter of the pool, it doesn't have to be exact - that's why you put the pump on circulate for about an hour, so that it mixes well, and will take the all the stains off. Don't forget that once all of the stains are gone, you have to put in the sequestering agent, so that the metals can bind with it, so that they dont' fall out again when you start to add chlorine. Let me know if you have any questions. Don't feel like you should have known about the cya chlorine thing - the pool stores don't ever tell you that - and half of them don't even know it themselves:eek: Stick with this forum and you will be able to have a clean clear pool all summer by taking care of it yourself:)

[kingbud]

made this post 5/10/07:

Ahhh, the mellow, friendly vibe of the PoolForum. So nice to be back. Course, I wouldn't be here reading if there wasn't just the teensiest little problem of my own. Hmmmm.... Vitamin C tablets, eh? Wouldn't hurt to have a little stash of those around the house anyway, and they're certainly not very expensive.

So. My pool man (me) did the ascsorbic acid treatment on 5/12/07. The stain did LITERALLY vanish before my eyes. Freakish, bizarre. I was slowly working around the pool edge dropping the powder in and I happened to look up before I was even finished going around and a large area opposite was already clear! So.

But today I wanted to say this: yesterday, May 24, was the first day I did not have to dump in chlorine (bleach), ie, did not have a zero reading. (I did follow instructions and put in the amount I believed correct according to the "best guess" chart - in my case about 8 ppm.) that means it took 13 days for the pool to stabilize with respect to chlorine. Does that sound right? Everything appears to be just as happy as a clam now. All the other values are fine. I should mention that my Ph behaved perversely according to what I read here - it never went down. I do not have a good tester, but the color on a test strip indicates a strong Ph, around 7.6 or higher. Now that the chlorine has settled down I plan to go to the pool store and have a test done. I'd appreciate any comments....

I still can't believe the way that stain disappeared:D

PS how do I lower Ph without lowering total alkalinity? would appreciate a helpful nudge from anyone on this question...

[mbar]

Yes, it could take that long to have the chlorine stabalize. Pools are very strang:D They all act a little differently:rolleyes: I had a very hard time balancing my water the first time I did the stain treatment - but I had the whole pool stained yellow, plus some really big stains on top of that. My ph was something that I had a really hard time keeping up too. As for how to lower ph without lowering the alkalinity - use muriatic acid, or ph down. THis may lower the alk slightly - but very slightly, because the only way to get rid of alkalinity is to gas it off by aerating the water, which will then raise your ph:eek: It is a really good plan if you have high alk with low ph:) Just use some muriatic acid (be careful with it) You can go to the bleach calc and do more calcs, and it will help you with lowering the ph. I suggest you invest in a good test kit - it will save you tons of money in the long run, and lots of trips to the pool store;) Feel free to ask any other questions you may have.