So, am I ready to ROCK???

[Pool_Mike]

Ok...since last Thursday (new pool and startup of all equipment) and even now. Pump on 24/7, water is still cloudy.

I decided to go to warehouse pool supply and get the water test done.

So they ran the test.

Here are the results:

total chlorine: 6.0 ppm

pH: 9.0

Hardness: 100 ppm

alkalinity 150 ppm

cyanuric acid: 10 ppm

total dissolved solids: 1400 ppm

~~~ end of test results they gave me ~~~~
========================

So, the guys at pool warehouse sold me: Muriatic acid & Naural chemistry Clarifier.


They said all I need is this to get the pool clear.
======================

So, as of today, my SWG is at 3200ppm @ 70 (setting); Filteration is "on".

I have all valves on: High and Low side outs on, main drain and suction. The filteration is on.


So by adding:4 pt/ 6 oz of muriatic acid and little bit of the Naural chemistry Clarifier, should my pool get clear in about 6hrs.

Last, but hope not a dumb question, but by putting in Muratic acid in my vinyl liner pool it is ok, right? Also where should I add the muratic acid at? By skimmer area?? Thanks 4 any input before I mess something up.

-Mike

[Phillbo]

Add the acid close to a return line so it gets circulated. You also need to get your CYA up a bit... Most SWCG mfg recommend a much higher level.. look in your manual. You might want to shock with bleach as well.

[duraleigh]

Mike,

Member of the forum since June and you don't have a test kit? That would be my first priority.

You need to retest pH ASAP and make sure you're down in the 7's. You need more CYA as well.

[Pool_Mike]

Well since 2:00pm, now 4 hrs later, pools still looks the same. This is horrid :mad:


BTW............ how do I boost the CYA and when you say add bleach, about how much???

Our pool is 22000 gallons.

Could I just super colornate by pushing the switch on our SWG system??

I am just not sure how long.

Oh reason why I ask is b/c our PBs never gave us and lost all of our manuals. Yes I know.................

````But thanks you all that would help take sometime on this topic to put my pool into clear status....-Mike

[jonv112]

I'm no expert, but I know that using the super-chlorinate function on your Aqua-Rite will generate chlorine non-stop for 24 hours, but will greatly reduce the cell life as well.

[aylad]

Superchlorinating via the SWG is possible, but will reduce the cell life, as jonv112 pointed out. You can use plain, unscented bleach--in a 22K gallon pool, approx. 1/2 gallon of 6% bleach will raise yourCl by 1 ppm. With a CYA of 10, your shock level is around 12 ppm. So test your current cl level, then add the amount of bleach necessary to get up to 12. Also, keep your pump/filter on 24/7, and it should help clear up the cloudiness if it's "stuff" suspended that's the problem.

To increase your CYA, go to Walmart/Home Depot/Lowe's/Poolstore and buy it--it's often also called stabilizer, conditioner, balancer, but if the ingredient is isocyanuric or cyanuric acid, it's the stuff. Follow label directions for how much to add to up your level to where you want it, but don't broadcast it into the pool like the label says.....most of us pour it into the skimmer, where it goes to the filter and dissolves SLOWLY--so don't backwash or re-test for a week or so to give it time to totally dissolve.

Janet

[Pool_Mike]

Thank you 4 everything.

As I type. We are getting heavy rain, at least an inch right now :( and still pouring.


I *think* tomorrow the PB will be out the check everything. I assume from all this rain right now :eek: that the reading I got from this evening are probably no good and the acid and condition I added was just probably a waste.

I have not gone out to buy my own test kit b/c the PBs suppose to bring us one tomorrow.

So new and I was really freaking out on how to pour the acid into the pool. So I just went to the deep end, run the drains (deep end) and poured slowing there. As of today, I have had no luck to getting the pool clear what so-ever :( . I guesss allot will depend on test kit, so I probably take all this from there.

Our PB said it will be 2nd nature to know all this and since this is all so new to us, that it is kinda stressing me out.
:(

But thank you all here to get me in the right position to get our pool to where it needs to be.

God bless

[dawndenise]

Unless you're having so much rain you've had to drain some from the pool, the muriatic acid and stabilizer you added this evening will not be a waste. A bit more diluted perhaps, but not a waste.

You can obtain a copy of the owner's manual for your SWCG at goldlinecontrols.com. That's where I got mine.

[Jeffski]

Reduce the cell life??? The SWG is made to do that. I think you need to shock your pool by turning the SWG up to 100% for two days and then you'll be good.

[Pool_Mike]

I checked the PPM on the SWG @ 60% it dropped to 3100 consistantly.

Seems like my swg to keep it at 3200ppm is @ 70%.

So this morning it still has a cloudy look to it.

I turned on filteration, skimmer and main drains. We'll see what happens when the PBs come out today for it's results.

Thanks

[Phillbo]

Reduce the cell life??? The SWG is made to do that. I think you need to shock your pool by turning the SWG up to 100% for two days and then you'll be good.


6 gallons of bleach is much cheaper than a new cell. SWCG cells have a set life span. Why get in a hurry to reach that point buy using it to shock? I run mine at about 40%. I have not had to shock my pool but if needed , I would not use the SWCG.

[SeanB.]

My thinking is that one of the reasons I am getting the SWCG is convenience. My unit will be over-sized so it should last the longer end of the range, say 4-5 years. If, by using it to shock, I shorten the duration by say 10%, then I will only have lost 4-5 months. If you calculate a cell's value as a dollar figure, that means that extra shocking and reduced life will cost me about $30-$40 (less if you subtract the cost of the bleach). To me, that is well worth not having to buy, store and handle bleach over a four to five year period. Even if you double the figure to 20% loss of cell life, I still think it's a reasonable trade off.

[waterbear]

From my understanding the biggest problem with superchlorinating with the cell is not the shortening of the cell life (although that IS a concern) but that the FC levels rise slowly over the period and during this certain types of complex chloramines can form when FC levels are high but below breakpoint that make it more difficult to reach breakpoint than if the proper amount of chlorine is added all at once to reach a desired ppm of FC. (Richard or anyone else please correct me if I am wrong on this, my research indicates this is true).

[SeanB.]

From my understanding the biggest problem with superchlorinating with the cell is not the shortening of the cell life (although that IS a concern) but that the FC levels rise slowly over the period and during this certain types of complex chloramines can form when FC levels are high but below breakpoint that make it more difficult to reach breakpoint than if the proper amount of chlorine is added all at once to reach a desired ppm of FC. (Richard or anyone else please correct me if I am wrong on this, my research indicates this is true).


I wasn't aware of that. I was under the assumption that shocking with the SWCG was as effective. If that is not the case, then I will have to reconsider my plan. Has PoolSean ever given an opinion on this?

[Pool_Mike]

PB went out and called me to let me know that he back washed and it was very dirty. He said in less then 1 hour, now the lower end of the pool , now that you can see the floor.

yah!! :D

[chem geek]

From my understanding the biggest problem with superchlorinating with the cell is not the shortening of the cell life (although that IS a concern) but that the FC levels rise slowly over the period and during this certain types of complex chloramines can form when FC levels are high but below breakpoint that make it more difficult to reach breakpoint than if the proper amount of chlorine is added all at once to reach a desired ppm of FC. (Richard or anyone else please correct me if I am wrong on this, my research indicates this is true).
I don't have a salt cell, but even at full power and running 24/7 you are right that the increase in chlorine levels attained in the pool will be much slower than dumping liquid chlorine into the pool. However, if one is starting from an existing free chlorine level then whatever chloramines that would have been formed have already done so. Free chlorine combines with ammonia very, very quickly to form chloramines. It is the next steps to breakpoint that are slow (and free chlorine oxidizing organics can also be slow). So from a chemistry point of view, I don't think the slow increase in FC from a salt cell would be an issue unless the FC were at or near zero for some reason -- perhaps if there were a major ammonia (i.e. urine) accident that overwhelmed much of the free chlorine in the pool, remembering that you need about 10 times as much FC to achieve breakpoint as there is ammonia.

Urine is about 2.5% urea by weight and urea is about 50% nitrogen (ammonia) so 2 cups of urine produces around 5 grams of ammonia and that requires about 50 grams of chlorine for breakpoint. A 10,000 gallon pool is about 38,000 liters fo 50 grams of chlorine in 38,000 liters is 1.3 ppm. So depending on size of pool, FC level, and size and number of accidents, one could use up all the FC in a pool. And certainly one uses up the FC in a local area rather quickly.

So if you need to superchlorinate because of an "accident", then I agree that quickly administering a large dose of chlorine is wise so that breakpoint is more easily achieved. If instead it's just a small amount of measured combined chlorine that has accumulated, possibly from slow combining with organics (not ammonia), then a slow rise in chlorine would probably be fine. Of course, the issue of the life of the salt cell is real and adding liquid chlorine is easy and relatively inexpensive.

[EDIT] In the presence of CYA, the breakpoint chlorination process is slowed down considerably since CYA reduces the disinfecting chlorine concentration. A normal breakpoint at an FC of 2.0 ppm with no CYA takes around 30 minutes to effectively complete so with 30 ppm CYA this would take about 11 hours if there was no sunlight. I don't know how much faster breakpoint goes with sunlight. [END-EDIT]

Richard

[waterbear]

I don't have a salt cell, but even at full power and running 24/7 you are right that the increase in chlorine levels attained in the pool will be much slower than dumping liquid chlorine into the pool. However, if one is starting from an existing free chlorine level then whatever chloramines that would have been formed have already done so.
If the organic load is higher than the chlorine available then more chloramine would form as the chlorine was increased, correct? From my understanding it is only after all the ammonia and organics present have combined that breakpoint can be reached.
Free chlorine combines with ammonia very, very quickly to form chloramines. It is the next steps to breakpoint that are slow (and free chlorine oxidizing organics can also be slow). So from a chemistry point of view, I don't think the slow increase in FC from a salt cell would be an issue unless the FC were at or near zero for some reason -- perhaps if there were a major ammonia (i.e. urine) accident that overwhelmed much of the free chlorine in the pool, remembering that you need about 10 times as much FC to achieve breakpoint as there is ammonia.

My understanding of the chemistry is that incomplete breakpoint (from a slow rise in chlorine) would favor the formation nitrogen trichloride (even at higher pH) and if the organics are from complex sources such as algae and not just ammonia (which is often the real world case when we 'shock') then it would cause the formation of other disinfection by products such as organochloramines, which are difficult to break down. Also reaction would not go to endpoint, which would be the release of nitrogen gas as the ammonia is broken down but cause the formation of nitrates in the water, which are a souce of food for algae.



[EDIT] In the presence of CYA, the breakpoint chlorination process is slowed down considerably since CYA reduces the disinfecting chlorine concentration. A normal breakpoint at an FC of 2.0 ppm with no CYA takes around 30 minutes to effectively complete so with 30 ppm CYA this would take about 11 hours if there was no sunlight. I don't know how much faster breakpoint goes with sunlight. [END-EDIT]
Once again this seems to indicate that the slow rise in FC caused by superchlorinating with the cell is not an effective way to reach breakpoint.
Richard
Your thoughts on this would be appreciated....perhaps in the China shop?

[chem geek]

I've continued this discussion on the pre-existing Breakpoint Chlorination thread starting at this post (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?p=38265#post38265). Please meet me there.

[Jeffski]

I checked the PPM on the SWG @ 60% it dropped to 3100 consistantly.

Seems like my swg to keep it at 3200ppm is @ 70%.

So this morning it still has a cloudy look to it.

I turned on filteration, skimmer and main drains. We'll see what happens when the PBs come out today for it's results.

Thanks

Mike - I don't think your numbers are right, and please someone tell me if I am wrong. The SWG doesn't control the salt level in the pool which is what the number 3200ppm is measuring. When you bump the SWG up to 70% it is producing more chlorine, not salt. 3200ppm shouldn't change much unless you add more salt or lose a lot of water. Make sense? I hope I am understanding that right because it's new to me also.

[Jeffski]

Also with regard to using the SWG for super-chlorination, I live in Michigan so my SWG is going to last a lot longer than one in a warmer climate. It runs 4-5 months a year. I won't hesitate to use it for that since the convenience is why I bought it.

[Simmons99]

Pool_mike -

Were you able to get the pool clear? It seems like your "cloudy pool" thread was hijacked by the "we should vs. should not use SWCG to shock" discussion.

One more thing that I didn't see mentioned was that with a PH that is high (like over 7.8) you will have a high tendency to have a cloudy pool. This is because calcium will start to precipitate and/or the chlorine will be less effective leading to the growth of organics in the pool.

Also - the SWCG only changes the chlorine level. The % setting determines the strength at which it works (like the cook % setting on a microwave). The ppm you see on the display is what the SWCG sees as the current salt level in the pool. The salt concentration level changes the "ppm" reading on the SWCG.

BUY a GOOD test kit - the pool builder will give you a crappy OTO/PH test kit only. You cannot maintain a good looking pool by using that and then going to the pool store. Also buy about 2-3 gallons of muriatic acid, a couple of boxes of baking soda from the store. Keep this around to adjust the PH and ALK.

Good luck on the new pool - have you posted pictures?

[Pool_Mike]

pool never has "yet" got clear. :(

The shallow area "we" started to see the bottom.


I did use the cheap'OL' test kit that was given to us by the PB, the cl was high, the ph was little high.

I am not sure what to do to lower the cl, but as for the ph, I just dropped two cups of muratic acid. The test kit I got, just shows color, I have no idea how much I need to add if I do need to add anything. Muratic acid was a guess. I am sure 2 cups is ok. :D

[Pool_Mike]

test kit says to test the alkalinity first. I ended up dropping 10 drops to get it to yellow. By what the instructions said, I need to add 1 gallon 1/4 cups of muratic to our 20K pool. So I ended up adding that amount.

Well see tomorrow what it does. Also my SWG dropped to 2900, kinda weird

[Pool_Mike]

Ok.....


My dad sent me in the mail the HTH interactive water test software, which works with the hth 6-way swimming pool test strips that can be bought at wal-mart.

Seems to me this is easy way to test my pool and just input the test strip results on the PC software and it tells me what I need, which it said I needed nadda/ lol

But here are the results:

FC / 2.0 ppm

pH / 7.5

TA / 120

CH / 200

CYA / 100

-----------------------


Nope the pool is not clear :(

I did however notice that my swg dropped to 2900ppm, which seems to be running really low.

Should I add more salt to the pool? Maybe one bag (40 lbs)?

Anyways, I boosted the control know to 80 and hope it gets back up, but as of 10:20 PM these are the results. Thanks guys and hope to get my pool clear inside.

Thanks!!

What do I need guys?

[dawndenise]

Pool Mike -

Your SWG's ideal salt range is anywhere between 2700 and 3400, so you're still in that ideal range, per the owner's manual for your unit (I have the same one).

The salt reading dropped from what you saw before probably because your PB backwashed your filter. Anytime you lose water through backwashing or splash-out, your salt reading may go down a bit.

As Simmons99 indicated, you cannot change your salt reading by moving the control knob. Boosting your control knob to 80% won't change your salt reading. Right now, it will stay at or about 2900 no matter where your control knob is set, 10%, 30%, or 100%, or anything in between. Where the knob is set makes no difference to your salt reading. The only way to increase your salt reading is to add salt in your pool water. I'm not saying you should add salt right now, I'm just saying that's how your system works. The only way to decrease your salt reading is to backwash your filter, splash water out of the pool, or drain some water out of the pool.

The control knob governs how much chlorine is "made" with that salt - how much chlorine is generated and put into your pool. In basic terms, the higher the percentage, the more chlorine that goes into the pool.

[Jeffski]

From what I've learned on this site over the last couple months with a stabilizer that high (CYA 100 which is too high) you need to get your chlorine levels really, really high in order to effectively shock your pool. My guess is the chlorine you're putting in is doing nothing which is why the water is still cloudy.

Now hopefully an expert can chime in with how to lower your CYA or if that's even possible.

[Pool_Mike]

From what I've learned on this site over the last couple months with a stabilizer that high (CYA 100 which is too high) you need to get your chlorine levels really, really high in order to effectively shock your pool. My guess is the chlorine you're putting in is doing nothing which is why the water is still cloudy.

Now hopefully an expert can chime in with how to lower your CYA or if that's even possible.



Sounds like I may need to then do a manual Shock? Bleach ??

Anyone confirm and if so, how many gallons you think? Thanks

[Pool_Mike]

Sounds like I may need to then do a manual Shock? Bleach ??

Anyone confirm and if so, how many gallons you think? Thanks

I called goldline and they said that I can use bleach or chlorine tabs/powder. I just not sure how much by the reading I posted above. Anyone help?? :eek:

[Jeffski]

I would first get an anwer to the CYA question and how to lower that. It's probably in a thread here somewhere if you look hard enough. I can't remember the answer, sorry.

[chem geek]

The CYA level may be more than 100 since that is the limit of the test (the black dot could disappear before one adds enough "cloudy" mixture to the tube to even get to the 100 ppm line).

Unfortunately, the only real way to lower the CYA is through dilution which means partial drain and refill. However, since this is near the end of the pool season and winter closing is approaching, the pool can just be made to have higher than usual chlorine levels until winter closing. Then the CYA may drop over the winter (for reasons that are not fully understood yet). If the pool is in an area where there are winter rains, then these can be used for dilution via overflow (but if it's in a freezing area, then that may not work as one usually lowers the water level below the skimmer and inlet returns).

Richard

[Pool_Mike]

The CYA level may be more than 100 since that is the limit of the test (the black dot could disappear before one adds enough "cloudy" mixture to the tube to even get to the 100 ppm line).

Unfortunately, the only real way to lower the CYA is through dilution which means partial drain and refill. However, since this is near the end of the pool season and winter closing is approaching, the pool can just be made to have higher than usual chlorine levels until winter closing. Then the CYA may drop over the winter (for reasons that are not fully understood yet). If the pool is in an area where there are winter rains, then these can be used for dilution via overflow (but if it's in a freezing area, then that may not work as one usually lowers the water level below the skimmer and inlet returns).

Richard


Hi ya Richard.

Summer still here in Central Sunny Texas.

:D

Water temp is 84 when I checked yesterday.

http://www.fox7.com/ftpcap/weather/5day1.jpg

We can actually swim till about mid October. If I remember last year on Thanksgiving day it was hot and I was wearing a tank-top.

[Pool_Mike]

.... Oh so I had the wife today go to wal-mart and add 3.5 gallons of bleach to the pool. We'll see what happens in about 3 hours or so.

[Phillbo]

Get a drop based test kit .. The test strips are not accurate.

[Pool_Mike]

Everything since the shock of bleach ( 3.5 gallons). Really cleared up the pool.

The shallow end I can see the bottom and sides.

As for the deeper-end, it still kind of dark, however I can see the two main-drains; unlike before, which to me is an improvement.