Newbie here...need help with startup

[Ready2swim]

We just filled our pool a couple of days ago and so far I havent seen anyone from the PB to come out and start things up. Last night I decided to at least start the waterfall pump to have some circulation but that doesnt run through the filter. I guess I have a few questions but the main question is in regards to checmicals so that is why I posted it here. Let me give you some background info...

Free form inground gunite pool 17,000 gallons 34'X18' with 3 1/2' depth in the shallow end and 6' depth in the deep end. Attached to the pool is an 8' diameter spa and 2.5 ton moss rock waterfall.

My equipment consists of the following:

1) 1 hp Pentair Whisper Flow waterfall pump

2) 2 hp Pentair Whisper Flow Pool Pump

3) Easy Touch 8 Controll system with Intellichlor IC40 SWG

4) Pentair MiniMax NT 400K BTU Gas Heater

5) Polaris 380 with Booster Pump

6) (2) Skimmers

7) (4) Return Lines

8) All 2" plumbing

I will get some pictures this weekend and attach them...

Now on to my questions...

1) What (If anything) will we need to do differently with regards to chemicals since we have the SWG? I know that we will need to controll the PH with Acid and the CYA...anything else I need to know or do I have it completely wrong?

2) How long should I wait until I go balistic on the PB for not coming out to start up our pool? Will it be OK sitting stagnant for a few days...I can run the waterfall but I am afraid to start everything else up since they may have a plug somewhere I dont know about and I am not exactly sure where all of the valves are going at this point. I think I have it figured out but until I see it for sure I dont want to take the chance by myslef.

3) Will it hurt the SWG if I start up the pool without adding any salt to the system? The reason I ask is I want to be informed if the PB tells me this is OK.


The PB is nowhere near being done yet, they still havent sprayed our SunDeck, our fence is still laying on the ground and even worse our Catch a Kid fence isnt installed yet. The gas line is not completed to the heater and there is still tons of trash in my yard...including about 6 tons of broken concrete from an exitsing patio. We are not pleased with the efforts so far but the workmanship has been great and at least we have water in our pool, even if we are in a vulnerable position with the fence laying on the ground.

Please let me know your thoughts and/or steer me in the right direction. Thanks in advance for your help!

[chem geek]

The differences in chemicals with an SWCG system are as follows:

1) They generally operate more efficiently with higher levels of CYA -- some manufacturers recommend 70-80 ppm, but this depends on the cell design so see what your manufacturer says.

2) They seem to be able to operate with lower chlorine levels, though this is hotly debated on this forum. Some users swear that one must still maintain levels according to Ben's Best Guess CYA chart (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=365), but most say that a level of 3 ppm works well even with 70-80 ppm CYA (which would normally require a minimum of 5 ppm from Ben's chart).

3) They require a minimum salt level in order to operate. The exact amount varies by manufacturer, but is typically in the range of 2500-3500 ppm of salt (NaCl) though technically it is chloride ion that is measured (and is what is relevant) even though it gets reported as ppm of sodium chloride salt.

If you do not have the minimum salt level in your pool, then the SWCG will simply not operate since there won't be enough condicutivity in the water without the salt to cause the electrolysis in the SWCG cell to happen (i.e. you won't generate chlorine). So don't bother turning on the SWCG until you add salt to your pool. In the meantime, use liquid chlorine or bleach and add CYA if it's not already there or else you'll lose the chlorine to sunlight too rapidly. Be sure that the TA and CH are up to the normal levels (around 100 and 300, respectively) since you have a gunite pool. Adjust pH, etc. -- all the stuff you would do with a non-SWCG pool.

Richard

[dawndenise]

Ready2swim, I went ballistic on your behalf after reading your post. Having that wonderful pool and spa filled "a couple of days ago" without your equipment on is an algae pool on the not-too-distant horizon :eek: , IMHO. Good to see you've got at least one pump going for some circulation.

A-s-suming you filled with some kind of municipal water, you at least have some low level of chlorine in it, but that will be gone very, very soon, if it's not gone already.

If that were my pool, I'd be on the phone to the PB today and get them to get the rest of your equipment started, but not the SWG. It really shouldn't take them that long if they just get your basic stuff going, including the filter. If they can get your pumps and filter online, that'll make your life a whole lot easier and then this forum can help you with the rest.

Get a good drops-based test kit, if you don't already have one and test your water and post your results back here. Could you also tell us what finish you have on the gunite?

Good luck,

[Simmons99]

Don"t totally freak out - we went 3-4 days with water and no pump (the electricians ran out of conduit and the plumber plumbed something backwards). I added about 1 gallon of bleach to my 14,000 pool every evening (starting the second day) AFTER THE sun went down and bought my own brush - brushed the pool to mix up the chlorine.

Also if the pool builder asks - tell him you used liquid chlorine instead of bleach - it makes them feel better:p

You can wait a few days - we had no problems and it was 95 degrees or higher - just get some bleach in at night.

Also - the pool builder had us wait 14 days before they would salt the pool - something to do with the finish. Once the pump was on we used tri-chlor pucks in a floater (to help counter act the rising PH and add some CYA) and then added bleach in the evening until the SWCG was online.

[Phillbo]

If it's a plaster pool, you need to be brushing it a couple times a day ... Get the filter running asap.


Put the PB number on speed dial in your cell and do not stop calling until they get the job done!!! It's sad but your problems are typical in the industry. My PB started to drag his feet late in the project and once the promised completion date arrived, I called and informed them I would be deducting 100.00 per day from the balance due for each day it was not completed. That got their attention.

[Ready2swim]

The pool finish is plaster...

I finally took the bull by the horns Friday night after deciding that I wasnt going to get any help from the PB...after all, why would they want to start providing good service now after a perfect record of being absolutley incapable for the last two and a half months?

I removed the plugs from the skimmers and filled the pumps with water. I walked around the pool one more time to make sure all of the plugs were removed and the main drain was clear of debris...I walked back to the Easy Touch controll panel and turned on the pool pump, said a couple of hail mary's and low and behold...we have lift off. Everything came on line perfectly. I had a few monments of trial and error trying to make sure that the valves all did what I thought they did. once I got everything figured out we were off to the races and at least i wasnt looking at stagnant water anymore.

I went down to the local pool store and took my beating like a man, since my PB has not delivered a pole or brush or anything else for that matter I decided to buy one for now and show them the reciept when they arrive to pick up their final check. I havent had a chance to test the water yet but I will do that tonight and post the results tomorrow. It was nice to have things up and running even if it wasnt "the real thing". I hope to get the start up company out this week to add the salt and help me program the Easy Touch.

One thing I noticed that I dont understand is the jets in the spa are missing...does anyone know when they are normally installed?

I took a few pictures on Saturday evening, sorry they are so dark. I will take more when I get a chance. Thanks again for all of the help, I will get the results of my tests posted tomorrow.

[SeanB.]

Well, it looks good anyway. I like the layout and the shape of the spa.

Just curious, did you get the landscaping package from them as well or will you be doing that yourself?

[ChuckD]

Sorry no one else has mentioned this but the most disturbing thing about this mess is that the fencing hasn't been put up yet and the pool's full. And then I see the little guy walking around there. This has to be some kind of code violation, or something.

I don't know who'd be held responsible in the event of an accident, but please don't underestimate the danger of the situation as it is. Having spent my younger years as a lifeguard, you never appreciate how fast things can happen till you actually see it and I have many times.

Chuck

[Ready2swim]

We have been VERY worried about the fence being down. My wife and I are wathcing like a hawk, I went out the other day and stapled some construction fence to the existing fence to at least plug the gap but I know that wont hold anything back that wants to get in like a curious kid. I know my son will be safe since we dont let him out of our sight for even a second but I worry about the neighbors.

I sent an e-mail to the PB again yesterday since I have not been able to get anyone on the phone to discuss it. Both the owner and the GM read the e-mail at 1:30 in the afternoon but neither one replied. I am at the point now where I am going to head down to their office this afternoon to find out if they intend on finishing my job or if they think they are done. We started this project back on 6-20-06.

I still dont have a brush from them...that brings up a question. What happens to new plaster if you dont brush it twice a day? I went and bought a brush and I have been taking care of my pool but they dont know that.

We just want our lives back, it has been 9 days since the last sub left (without finishing I might add)! I hate to sound like the preverbial "got screwed" pool owner but it sounds like I have been inducted into the club.

[eljefe281]

Has the entire contract price been paid?

[Ready2swim]

Has the entire contract price been paid?

No, I still owe them about $5K but they have been smart enough not to ask for it yet. When they do ask for it I plan to hold it back until they are done. I just spoke with our house keeper and she said the decking crew was at the house as we speak. Evidently she went out there and chewed some A$$.

I also received an e-mail this morning from the PB with another sorry excuse as to why things are behind. They say that they were shut down yesterday because of rain...unfortunately for them a freind of mine is having his pool built by the same company and the same decking crew did his SunDeck yesterday afternoon. By the way he just started his project 4 weeks ago and he is already past our stage...this is the SAME COMPANY!

I am at a loss, I dont know what recourse I have but the list of incompetence is LONG! I actually took the time to write a diary of the daily activities once I noticed we were having trouble. Maybe my attorney can do something with it?

[pcgeek]

I can't speak from experience as I'm 1 week away from filling my pool (PebbleTek gets put in on Thursday) but the start-up plan from our PB has them coming out to do an "acid startup" right after we fill it and we need to brush it for 7-10 days (after 5 days they want us to start bringing the PH up). The part that struck me as being the oddest is that they will not start the equipment until after the wash is complete.

Don't know if it's a valid concern or if it's even the correct procedure (or could just be because it's a pebble finish) but I don't know if starting the equipment was a good idea or not.

[Ready2swim]

I can't speak from experience as I'm 1 week away from filling my pool (PebbleTek gets put in on Thursday) but the start-up plan from our PB has them coming out to do an "acid startup" right after we fill it and we need to brush it for 7-10 days (after 5 days they want us to start bringing the PH up). The part that struck me as being the oddest is that they will not start the equipment until after the wash is complete.

Don't know if it's a valid concern or if it's even the correct procedure (or could just be because it's a pebble finish) but I don't know if starting the equipment was a good idea or not.

The main difference here is we arent doing PebbleTek, therefore we will not do an acid wash. I am not concerned about starting the equipment, actually the only thing that made me relax over the weekend was the fact that I had my pumps running through the filter so at least I was filtering my water.

[eljefe281]

One thing I noticed that I dont understand is the jets in the spa are missing...does anyone know when they are normally installed?

Do you mean that there is nothing coming through the gunite wall where the jets should be?

Or that the appropriate wall fittings are not yet in place?

[Simmons99]

If the jets you are refering to are really the eyelets - mine were installed the week after the pool was filled. Our start-up went like this

8/18: finish applied and started filling
8/19: completed filling - electrical came out to connect the pump - ran out of materials & left.
8/20: Nothing
8/21: Electrical came back and got the pump on-line and started. PB came to install lights in spa and pool. Found a broken conduit.
8/22: PB came back - fixed conduit - got the lights installed. Found SWCG was plumbed wrong. Installed eyelets.
8/23-24: Nothing
8/25: Got pool school - they added the rest of the chemicals and we got our brush/test kit/warranty info and we paid final payment. Items still not completed at this point were (1) the SWCG was still not started (2) some pavers were the wrong color (3) the covered area leaks by the house (4) the screen door on one side hits the pavers and is very difficult to close (5) paint overspray on tiles.
8/28 - fixed overspray on tiles
8/31 - started SWCG - added salt
9/08 - installed alarms on windows/doors
9/19 - final inspection. Still outstanding items.

This is normal punch-list type stuff. They are talking to me - I never call angery - no one wants to call someone back that is going to yell at them - so I only am a b**ch when I have tried everything else.

Take a deep breath - your scenario doesn't sound nearly as bad as some others I have heard (14 + months from dig to fill). Although it is never good business practices to lie to a customer - will get you in trouble everytime.

[SeanB.]

Simonn's that is kind of what I was thinking. I know pools are a pretty expensive proposition, and to tell the truth, very few people seem to be getting the kind of customer service you'd expect with that sort of expenditure.

However, it all seems very similar to the home building process, which we just finished. Despite spending many times the cost of the pool, we ran into the same sort of issues - things getting done slowly, sometimes wrong, but eventually all was made right.

In both cases, the builders are relying very heavily on contracted labor who in most cases (in this part of the country) are illegal and most barely speak English. I can see why communication and timeliness are big issues. However, the work ethic of these people seems to be fantastic. Once they start on a job, they are usually very skilled and do well.

Just as an example of how delays happen, we wanted to save some money on putting our fence back up, so I approached a laborer building a house next to us (lots of construction still going on) and asked him if he could repair my fence - about 15 foot or so. This would have cost me several hundred thought the builder and he agreed to do it for $75. The funny part is he didn't wait until the end of the day to come over, he came and started right then and did the job - took him about an hour. Now, I was glad to get my fence done, but I couldn't help but think that he was probably being paid to do another job at that same time. A job that was now delayed because of me and my fence. Now the builder certainly couldn't account for that sort of thing, but the guy buying that home is going to hold the builder accountable for those delays.

I guess, after my own experiences and reading about enough other builds, I was prepared for delays, so I'm able to just take them in stride as part of the process. Not to negate anyone's aggravation, because there is absolutely room for improvement across this whole industry.

[Ready2swim]

OK guys,

Here is my dilemma,

The test Kit that my PB provided with my "package" only measures CL and PH and it only does it with a color chart that is weak at best. I will have to run down and pick something up for now that will give me some true data.

Everything else seems to be going well, we are expecting final clean up tomorrow and that should be that.

[SeanB.]

How's about an updated picture? How are things running now?