Cheapest source for muriatic acid?

[dafletcha]

I felt like I hit the jackpot a few weeks ago when I wandered into FoodMaxx and found Muriatic Acid selling for around $2.50/gal. I should have bought their whole stock then and there. But how was I to know that they would soon stop carrying it? :mad:

ACE sells it for about $5/gal. Haven't checked Home Depot yet. Any suggestions? (Maybe chem_geek can instruct us on how to make it from common household supplies ;) )

Thanks.

[joelq]

The Lowes in the Dallas area sells a two-pack of Muriatic (2 gallons total) for $9.56 (or thereabouts).

[chem geek]

(Maybe chem_geek can instruct us on how to make it from common household supplies ;) )
Sorry, but HCl is typically produced from electrolysis of a salt solution, similar to what your SWCG salt cell does except it's done in a much more concentrated salt solution that is much more acidic. It produces chlorine gas and hydrogen gas that combine in a hot reaction to from HCl gas (an SWCG salt cell produces chlorine gas that gets dissolved in the water and should not outgas much because the pH is higher and the salt and chlorine concentrations are lower). Both chlorine gas and HCl gas are very, very toxic and destructive. Not something for the home-brew chemist to do!:eek:

If you find yourself adding lots of muriatic acid because you have a large pH rise, you might consider significantly lowering your TA level to at least 80 if not lower (but not lower than 50). This has helped many people reduce their pH rise. You could also use a pool cover. If you are using an SWCG system, then Evan (waterbear) found that adding 50 ppm of borates (Borax) to your pool does in fact significantly lower chlorine usage and lowering the SWCG output reduces the pH rise and the amount of acid you need to add. See this thread (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=4712) for more info.

Richard

[dafletcha]

Thanks, Richard. I was jk about the home-brewed acid. I figured it had to be a dangerous process.

I have been an avid reader of the "rising pH" thread and others, and I've successfully lowered my TA from 280 to 120 using Ben's aeration method. But it's a continuous battle because my fill water (from a well) has a TA of 320. I've found that if I add 2 pints of acid each time I top up, I can keep the TA steady. Unfortunately, because of a leak, I'm topping up twice a week.

[cygnusecks]

If you find yourself adding lots of muriatic acid because you have a large pH rise, you might consider significantly lowering your TA level to at least 80 if not lower (but not lower than 50).

Richard

What? I thought if you lower your Alk, your pH will be able to move much more easily, and that higher TA means pH won't move so much.

[chem geek]

What? I thought if you lower your Alk, your pH will be able to move much more easily, and that higher TA means pH won't move so much.
This is one of those counterintuitive aspects of pool water chemistry. It is true that lower TA means that an amount of acid or base will make the pH move more compared with higher TA. However a high TA (especially in combination with low pH and/or high aeration) will result in a greater outg***ing of carbon dioxide. Essentially, a pool is intentionally "over-carbonated" (sort of like a soft drink) and contains more dissolved carbon dioxide than the air, so it will always be outg***ing. However, this is a relatively slow process but the rate of it is a function of TA, pH and aeration. The outg***ing causes the pH to rise with no change in TA. If you then add acid to lower the pH, this will lower the TA as well so the combination of carbon dioxide outg***ing plus adding acid results in a reduction in TA (this is how Ben's Lowering Your Alkalinity (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=191) procedure works and he accelerates the process by lowering the pH and increasing aeration).

This chart (http://richardfalk.home.comcast.net/pool/CO2.htm) shows the relative carbon dioxide outgas rates where I have roughly color coded in red the combinations of TA and pH where most people will find noticeable pH rise. The green combinations are where most people do not find a noticeable rise in pH. The orange area is mixed and in any event the amount of outg***ing is a function of aeration which is not easily calculable. I hypothesize that Salt Water Chlorine Generator (SWCG or SWG) pools have an increase in pH due to higher aeration from the hydrogen bubbles that are produced, but this has not been proven.

The lowering of TA will cut down the outg***ing of carbon dioxide and reduce the pH rise in pools that have a lot of such outg***ing, but it won't help and will actually make worse (as you pointed out) a pH rise that is due to some other external source. If you notice a reduction in TA over an extended period of time after you add acid to restore pH, then outg***ing of carbon dioxide is at least part of the source of pH rise, but this change in TA is very slow so has to be measured over weeks or a couple of months to be measurable.

The simplest way to reduce or virtually eliminate carbon dioxide outg***ing is to use a pool cover. For people with SWCG systems, another option is to add 50 ppm of Borates (Borax) to the pool (see this thread (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=4712) for more info) since this appears to lower the chlorine consumption and therefore generation with the result that there is less of a rise in pH (partly from the increased pH buffering from the borates) and acid demand (from the lower chlorine generation and therefore lower aeration).

Richard

[fcfrey]

[QUOTE=dafletcha;37282]I felt like I hit the jackpot a few weeks ago when I wandered into FoodMaxx and found Muriatic Acid selling for around $2.50/gal. I should have bought their whole stock then and there. But how was I to know that they would soon stop carrying it? :mad: QUOTE]

Next time you find a bargain like that should you take advantage of it (a s s uming you can safely store it)?? My question is -- will it degrade in time -- I don't seem to use much acid at all.

[chem geek]

My question is -- will it degrade in time -- I don't seem to use much acid at all.
Muriatic Acid (31.45% hydrochloric acid) has a multi-year shelf life so you should be fine. It also has a much lower freezing point than pure water (-50.8F or -46C) so unless you live in the Artic, you can leave it outside.