Raising PH

[hancop]

In the sticky on the beginners guide to pool chemistry needs it says to use 20 mule team borax to raise ph, or soda ash. The bleachcalc program only does calculations assuming you are using soda ash. Where do you get soda ash ? The sticky says that you can use arm and hammer washing soda which is soda ash (sodium carbonate). I have never heard of arm and hammer washing soda, only arm and hammer baking soda. I can't find anything on the arm and hammer website that mentions anything about washing soda, only baking soda. Is washing soda and baking soda the same thing ?

Should I use Borax or washing soda to raise the PH ?
If washing soda is the same as baking soda, adding baking soda will also raise the alkalinity.

Which is better to use to raise PH, washing soda or Borax ?
Does Borax also raise alkalinity ?
If i was to use Borax, how much to I need to use to raise PH .2 ? The bleachcalculator does not calculate this.

Thanks

[duraleigh]

The majority of people on the forum use only Borax. It will not raise your Alk much.

Because of some variables, pH rise using Borax was never included in bleachcalc.

Test for pH, add about 1lb per 10,000 gal, and retest. That'll tell you how much rise you'll get if you need to redose.

[chem geek]

My respones are in bold below. [EDIT] I wrote this while Dave (duraleigh) sent you his response so some of this is redundant. [END-EDIT]

In the sticky on the beginners guide to pool chemistry needs it says to use 20 mule team borax to raise ph, or soda ash. The bleachcalc program only does calculations assuming you are using soda ash. Where do you get soda ash ?
Click on this underlined link (http://www.amazon.com/Arm-&-Hammer-Super/dp/B0006M64XE) to see the Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda sold on Amazon. Interestingly, on the Arm & Hammer website I could only find Baking Soda so I don't know if Arm & Hammer still makes this product themselves or if they sold their "brand" to someone else.

The sticky says that you can use arm and hammer washing soda which is soda ash (sodium carbonate). I have never heard of arm and hammer washing soda, only arm and hammer baking soda. I can't find anything on the arm and hammer website that mentions anything about washing soda, only baking soda. Is washing soda and baking soda the same thing ?
No, Baking Soda is Sodium Bicarbonate and is what we use to raise alkalinity in pools. Washing Soda is Sodium Carbonate and is one of several different chemicals we can use to raise pH in pools and yes, Washing Soda raises alkalinity as well as pH while the other chemicals (Borax, Lye/Caustic Soda) do not raise alkalinity as much (they don't add any carbonate to your pool). You can get Sodium Carbonate in Washing Soda, but this is also what is in most pH Up products at pool stores (and hardware stores).

Should I use Borax or washing soda to raise the PH ?
You can use either one, but Borax will not raise the alkalinity as much as washing soda will. The "BBB" method talked about on this forum refers to using Bleach, Borax and Baking Soda".

If washing soda is the same as baking soda, adding baking soda will also raise the alkalinity.
Washing Soda and Baking Soda are not the same, though they are closely related. You are correct that both will raise the alkalinity, but Washing Soda will also raise the pH while Baking Soda will not (at least not very much -- it does a little).

Which is better to use to raise PH, washing soda or Borax ?
Both raise pH, but as mentioned, washing soda will also raise alkalinity. So it really comes down to price and to whether you need to also raise alkalinity. If you are losing alkaliinity (i.e. your TA is getting lower over time), then using Washing Soda will handle both the pH and alkalinity at the same time, but most users on this forum seem to use Borax for raising pH and Baking Soda for raising alkalinity.

Does Borax also raise alkalinity ?
It does a little as anything that increases pH would, but it does not increase very much and does not add carbonate so this means that after adding Borax and having the pH rise, if the pH then later falls the TA will fall as well and you'll end up right where you started. With Washing Soda, your TA will end up higher unless it gets reduced another way, say from outgassing carbon dioxide.

If i was to use Borax, how much to I need to use to raise PH .2 ? The bleachcalculator does not calculate this.
This depends on your starting and ending pH and on the TA level (and your pool water volume). Refer to this thread (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=5493) for more info.

Thanks

[waterbear]

My respones are in bold below.
Interestingly, on the Arm & Hammer website I could only find Baking Soda so I don't know if Arm & Hammer still makes this product themselves or if they sold their "brand" to someone else.


Nope, it's still made by Church and Dwight. Here is the link
http://www.thelaundrybasket.com/Our_Products/Our_Products_Super_Washing_Soda/our_products_super_washing_sod.html

[chem geek]

Nope, it's still made by Church and Dwight.
Thanks Evan. I seem to recall you told me about this before on another thread. Sorry for not remembering that.

It's interesting that the www.armandhammer.com (http://www.armandhammer.com/) website only talks about baking soda. Had I had the presence of mind to click on the "Contact Us" link on that website, then I would have been sent to a Church & Dwight (http://www.churchdwight.com/consumer_info/index.asp?source=WEBBS) website that lists all the brand names. It's interesting how they've split up all of their products onto individual websites (including the link you gave) rather than have them as links on one master corporate site.

Richard

[waterbear]

Glad I could help....no one can remember everything in all the posts on here!:eek: There is just so much information!
Church and Dwight even has a different page for their baking soda packaged for pool use under the Brand Name Alkalinity First!
http://www.ahperformance.com/pools.asp