Is It Normal For New New Ig Vinyl Pool To Be Slightly Unlevel?

[webfeet]

Pool is full. Close inspection of the water line on the liner border and the skimmers reveal that the water is about 1" higher on the deep end. I noticed it because the tile border pattern has a part of the pattern that is above the water line on the shallow end, but begans to get beneath the waterline near the middle of the pool, and finally disappearing at the end of the deep end. is this acceptable? The new pool is 40'6" long. It bugs me because I am paying a PC to install the pool, and I think the water should be even along the border.

[bobyoe]

That is not acceptable. Either the pools was put in un-level, or the liner was installed wrong. Is the liner in the track the same amount all the way around? If so, your pool is off, and I'd be very mad. Heck, I'd be mad either way!
Boby

[Waterworks]

Measure from your coping (where the liner actually beads into the track) down to the water level. If it is even all the way around, your liner has just stretched in a bad way and the tile border is just stretched more in some places than others. This is easy to fix.
If the measurement is not even all the way around the pool is off level. This could be very difficult to fix, depending on how far along the PB is.

Brad
www.waterworkspools.com

[webfeet]

I really think the pool walls are unlevel. The skimmers look the same distant below the coping, and I measured the waterline from the coping and it is about 3/4" different at each end. The deck has not been poured, but the PC has started the backfill. He plans on washing it in tomorrow and rebackfilling before he levels and builds the forms for the deck. He gave us permission to swim in it this holiday week end. The skimmers and filter are not working yet, but the pump is circulating the water. When ever I mention a concern to the PC he says that I worry too much. I have some other issues to address with him, but it is uncomfortable, and I feel like I am being hard to please. For example, I have been disturbed that the poolcrete surface is rough in several places, which I mentioned to him, and at his and Waste's advice I rubbed over the rough spots with my thumb, many of the rough areas do not flatten out, but remain. I have also found some small low areas, about the size of half dollars or a little bigger, under the liner. I mention the rough spots on a separate post, but if you have any advice on how to handle these issues, please tell me. I want to be fair, but I want what I paid for- a professional installation. Any input is more than appreciated.

[South_Texas_Sun]

I really think the pool walls are unlevel. The skimmers look the same distant below the coping, and I measured the waterline from the coping and it is about 3/4" different at each end. The deck has not been poured, but the PC has started the backfill. He plans on washing it in tomorrow and rebackfilling before he levels and builds the forms for the deck. He gave us permission to swim in it this holiday week end. The skimmers and filter are not working yet, but the pump is circulating the water. When ever I mention a concern to the PC he says that I worry too much. I have some other issues to address with him, but it is uncomfortable, and I feel like I am being hard to please. For example, I have been disturbed that the poolcrete surface is rough in several places, which I mentioned to him, and at his and Waste's advice I rubbed over the rough spots with my thumb, many of the rough areas do not flatten out, but remain. I have also found some small low areas, about the size of half dollars or a little bigger, under the liner. I mention the rough spots on a separate post, but if you have any advice on how to handle these issues, please tell me. I want to be fair, but I want what I paid for- a professional installation. Any input is more than appreciated.

Hi Webfeet, (love the screename:)

When it comes to pool contractors, we're all pretty much in the same boat. We are ALL at the mercy of the PB until the job is done, at which time we're either pleased with the ability to swim and enjoy the beautiful addition to our homes, OR.......ready to hire a "junkyard dog" lawyer and go for the PB's (usually non-existent) assets.

My wife.......(and I'm saying this tongue-in-cheek...honey :) ) is a pretty good "junkyard dog" when she doesn't get her way, and ......what I'm suggesting is:

Get a 3rd party to offer criticism about your objections, so that the PB has to offer the explanation to THEM while you look at him questioningly.. This could also be a neighbor, pool shop salesman, off duty building inspector, etc.

If this has no effect, your PB has the "siege mentality" that so many of them do, because they're fairly LOUSY at their profession and constantly get complaints.

In other words, do a "good cop, bad cop" on em......apologies to Mel Gibson, et. al. :rolleyes:

STS

[webfeet]

STexas,
Thanks for advice. Please explain your last two statements. I don't know what you mean.

Also, I am convinced my walls are not level. EDIT: DH shot pool with optical level and says the walls are 1/2" to 5/8" out of level- not quite 3/4". However, it will be a very difficult and expensive job ( if possible) to correct, since the walls are cemented into the ground. I guess what I want to know is - Will I have any mechanical or funtional problems because the pool is about 5/8" lower l on the deep end than the shallow end? I expect my PB to try to get me to accept it the way it is, and if the only problem with the slight unlevelness is with the appearance ( like looking at a crooked picture) then I will probably settle for an appearance damage concession from him. It really bugs me that part of the border pattern disappears underwater for the last 20 or so feet of the length of this 40'6" long pool. But if it may cause me problems in the future, then I want to have it fixed before I let him do anything else.
On the other hand, If it is an appearance problem only, what is a reasonable finanical concession that the PC should allow me? I am thinking $1000.00. I am paying about $27,000.00 bucks and I think I deserve a level pool. I could have put it in unlevel pool myself, and saved myself thousands of dollars. I bolded my main questions - hope this does not mean I am yelling, mad, or being rude. I need this specific info asap. Thanks for your help!

[tenax]

i would expect frankly compensation in the neighborhood of what it would cost to take out the liner and adjust the surface, if that's what would do it..i highly doubt 1,000 would even come close, but still far cheaper than replacing. given the compensation i would be going after, i'd be trotting off to my lawyer if the guy didn't agree to do it in writing with committed dates and such. you could also for refund money back as a "bond" to ensure the work is done. that way if he did walk away from it, you would have the money to correct (if that is possible)

i know what you are saying..to some people slight out of level would be "c'est la vie", good enough. i have a garage that was out of level at the roofline by about 1.5 inches over 40 ft span from sinkage at the corner..once i noticed it, it haunted me until i got it fixed.

[webfeet]

Thanks Tenax for the reply. I edited my previous post after your reply- because DH shot the pool with an optical level. Pool is about 5/8" lower on deep end. You are probably right, I bet $1000.00 will not touch what it will cost to level the pool, if it is possible to fix it. I am still wanting to hear from Waste and others that install IG liner pools and get their opinions concerning what is fair, and what I should do. PB didn't show today, but I called him and told him about the problem. (He has not seen the pool, since we completed filling it.) He didn't sound happy when he said he would "look at it tomorrow." I concluded with, " I need my pool leveled before you do anything else." I hope to get more advice before I talk to PB tomorrow.

[waste]

Web, when a 'damsel in distress' calls, and I can hear it in time, I will answer (to the best of my ability). What I'll do here is recount 3 jobs that I've been on in the past few years where a pool has been severely (more than ~ 1/8" out of level [a LASER level has a +/- 1/16" margin of error]) out of level. I can not criticise a job I've never seen nor the company that did the job, so I'll let you infer what's going on with your pool.
1) A few years ago I personally was responsible for the steps in a pool being ~ 1" higher than the rest of the pool (thankfully the 'rep' option is gone :) ). This wasnt noticed until the pool was backfilled. The fix we made was to excavate the step area (to ~20' either side) and jackhammer out the collar so that we could lower the affected pannels to their proper heigth and repour the collar and rebackfill - all by hand, guess who got to do all the 'drudge work'?
2) Last year, a portion of one of the walls, collar and all (after a week of very heavy rain) sank over an inch, causing the wall to actually buckle (and thereby be ~1 1/2" low at it's lowest) right at the skimmer. Our cure this time was to excavate and cut the 'tops' off of new pannels and attach them to 'recreate' the beam that had failed.
3) Similarly, on a 'rehab' job 3 years ago, the original pool was so badly out of level, we cut new pannels in half and attached them as to raise the entire pool to the level we wanted (they were getting a new deck, so we had the leeway we needed).
The comparitive expense of these, I don't know, but I'm sure none of them are cheep. Talk with your PC and see what he will or can do to correct the situation.
I wish you well, again, with your situation and hope all turns out fine.

[webfeet]

Thanks Waste. Although what I infer makes me sick. I think that you are saying that you believe my pool is 'severely' out of level, (granted that I am on target about it being about 5/8" lower at the deep end.. How unlevel does a panel, ect, have to be, to be "severely" unlevel? In our case, near the middle of the pool, the pool appears to begin getting lower until it reaches a max of 5/8" lower on the deep end. So it drops about 5/8" over about a 20' span. The PB will be here today. I've already told him I want it fixed, but like I said, I expect him to try to get us to accept it. I know you can't critique someone else's work, but I feel like you believe, (granted- I am presenting you a correct scenario) this should be repaired now. Is this correct? If so, I need to be sure that I get it fixed now, before the deck is poured. Do you think we could have problems in the future, like you described? Possible additional sinkage from heavy rains or shifting ground? We are (have started)backfilling with concrete sand (flume), following the PB's advice. Our yard is the clay, gumbo stuff that expands and shrinks a lot during wet/dry seasons. Either being very mushy, or drying out and cracking on the surface.
My husband is the non-confrontive, passive, peacemaking type. If I left this to him, he would probably just accept the unlevel pool. He would probably complain to me about it, but let the PB get away with it. Consequently, when we have to deal with something like this, it is usually me that does the dirty work. I can say whatever needs saying to anyone-but I want to be diplomatic, well-informed, reasonable, and on target when I have to be assertive. I don't want to take advantage of anyone, or be difficult. That is why I am relying heavily on the experience adviced from the kind folks of this forum. I do not have any other "voices of experience" to call upon. This is our first "real" pool, and I want what we are paying for- a professionally installed pool. I really appreciate everyone's input- and I do my best to follow advice from people that I feel are more knowledgable than m self. I know that you all have to "assume" that I am accurately describing the problems, since you are not here and cannot see for yourself. In different threads, different people, especially Waste, have eased my mind concerning what I thought were major problems. This time I am not eased- but I want the truth, no matter how much I dislike having to deal with it. P.S. Hubby just told me that he plans to called Hydra Pools, the manufacturer, today and get their input, too. I am proud of him! Yea! I had not thought of that. Duh. Will let you know what Hydra says.

[Snowymoon]

If I were in your shoes, the answer would be simple. I am paying for a service. It should be done correctly. If not, they must fix it or are responsible for paying for it to be fixed or having it fixed if they cannot fix it themselves; it is something they caused in the process of things, and they are respsonsible. If they scooted around the issue after a few good-faith attempts were made at getting the issue resolved, than they would hear from my lawyer. Nothing less than that would be acceptable, IMO.

If I am paying for something, I expect to get exactly what I ordered. In this case, it would be a 100% level pool.

[webfeet]

UPDATE:Hydra Pools technical serviceperson told my husband that we would probably not have any structural problems because of the 5/8" out of level. They did say,however, that the pool should be level, and that the problem cannot be corrected wtihout tearing out the walls and replacing and leveling new panels. Basically re-doing that end of the pool ( if not the whole thing). I think my builder would split, and I am not sure a Lawyer could do anything, but get a judgement, since you can't get blood out of a turnip. It boils down to this according to HYDRA- Either redo it to make it right ( Snowy- that's getting what I paid for). Or, on the other hand, I could settle for appearance damages ( getting less than what I paid for, but getting a refund). I'm not sure that I am convinced that we will never have structural problems down the road. Still leaning heavily on this forum's members that have specific experience dealing with IG liner pools.
I am waiting for another response from Waste- He is a jewel! Anybody else with personal experience with lIG liner pools, please chime in. What about you DIYers out there?

[duraleigh]

My pool ended up about 1/4" low in one corner. Structurally, I would put anything less than maybe 3/4" in the "no big deal" category.

Cosmetically, I don't think 5/8 would bug me but we all individually chose a degree of imperfection we can live with.

[waste]

Web, it's me (the jewel;) ) Let me set your mind at ease about the structural integrety, the materials used are fine and being out of level doesn't compromise them. The pool where the collar etc washed out was on the side of the pool that the retaining wall hadn't been installed yet (it was due to be done the week after the rain) (we built the pool on a sloped backyard, the side that failed was the 'exposed side' - hopefully my boss learned to let the retaining wall guys do their thing BEFORE we finish the pool). I believe that your pool is fully surrounded by 'virgin earth, so it's a problem you won't have to worry about:)
As for the stuff in your post this AM: I misspoke (mistyped?) myself by implying that 1/8" was the point of 'severity', the pools I mentioned were 1+" out of level, what I meant to imply was that 1/8" is very acceptable because the LASER transits we use have a margine of error of +/- 1/16". I can live with myself if a pool is out of level by ~1/4", anything over that falls into the catagory of "what the heck did we do? - over 1" is IMHO 'severe'. Your ~1/2" (sight transits can have a margin of error that much). Your issue is compounded by the tile pattern, if you didn't have the tile pattern to show you the 'unleveldness', you probably wouldn't be able to see it (unless you used Waterwork's advice and got out the tape measure).
It is ALWAYS easier to fix a problem before the deck is installed! However, this doesn't need to be the major fix you envision. A quick fix could involve draining ~1' of water, removing the liner from the affected area, removing the coping and somehow 'shimming' the coping up to level. The problem is finding a suitable material to do the shimming (cedar shims would eventually rot out, metal has to be ~impervious to the moisture found under a pool deck, etc and whatever is used needs to be able to go from ~0" to ~3/4"). But if you can raise the coping to level, the liner will follow.
Having offered a ?posible? solution to fix it, I will say that I would try to get $2000 for the (various) 'appearance damages' (I'd start at $2500 and let myself be brought down to 2000, but why not 'shoot for the moon' and start with $3000?) With that money you could get an SWCG and/ or take DH on a nice getaway (preferably when the deck gets poured - you're not supposed to walk on it for a couple of days right after it's poured). The 'unleveledness' is something only you will notice (your friends etc who come over to swim will just be impressed by the quality and clarity of your water, if you follow the advice posted here!! D) )
I hope I've been able to set your mind at ease and offer some helpful hints as to what to do. As always, if you need a little more on what I've said, just ask:)

[tenax]

well said, "precious"..i mean.."jewel":)

[webfeet]

Thanks Waste. We reshot the pool from several points. It is from 1/4" off to 1/2" off in places. PB claims that it is only 1/4" off with his level. Hydra Pools tech department feel as you do that structurally the pool should be fine. I agree, now is the time to do a quick fix, if we are going to, but hubby thinks the PB will walk off the job. PB told hubby today that we questioned and second guessed him more than any customer in 30 years, and that he has never wanted to walk off a job any worse than he has ours :rolleyes: . This intimidated hubby dear.:eek: So, I think DH plans to let PB continue to work and complete the job-- then address any complaints. I will try to change his mind and get him to ask about putting shims in the coping. DH doesn't want PB to quit before we get our mechanical equipment and 1000 sq ft of concrete decking. We will owe him a few thousand bucks when he is finished, but if my husband will let me, I will negotiate a lesser fee because of the appearance loss. :D If the liner didn't draw attention to the lack of level, it would be a mute point. But it does, and I think we at least need compensation for that. Thanks for giving me ideas on what is a fair amount. I will keep you posted. Anyone out there got any suggestions for what to use for shims? This forum is tops! :)

[bobyoe]

Maybe you could get them to put in a different style liner without a border so that the waterline difference wouldn't be so noticeable. Just a thought.....
Boby

[webfeet]

I have thought of that, and I think it makes a lot of sense. That is something that could be done after the project is completed- which is when DH wants to address the issue again. So maybe we will ask PB for a new liner or the 2500.00 and see what he says. He's afraid that if the PB gets to trying to shim the coping that he will get it out of whack even more.

[tenax]

can you "hold" the money you owe him subject to satisfactory conclusion? you might want to consult a lawyer to make sure you're covered..that's what i would do.

[hancop]

My pool was just completed and it is out by 1" from where the stairs are in the shallow end to the deep end. Does not look very good when you eye it along the liner. I talked to the builder about this and he said that he always raises the shallow end a bit and the stairs so that the pool will always drain into the deep end. Not sure if I believe this or not but I don't think there is anything I can do about it. I would not think that this would cause any structural issues as the pools are really strong these days. Therefore I am just going to live with it the way it is.

Cheers

[bobyoe]

hancop....Your PB's comment is the weirdest response I can imagine! Wouldn't you only need to slope the FLOOR? I guess that could apply if it were a preformed fiberglass pool, is yours that? Or does he think the water level itself would be sloping to the deep end? It reminds me of my lifeguard days... a story my kids and I laugh about to this day. I had a hose in one corner of the deep end to add some water and a mother came by and told her kids to swim only in the shallow end because "they're filling the deep end." Oh, my.....
Boby

[webfeet]

Tenax,
My thinking exactly! I plan to go that route, if hubby doesn't crumble in to PB. I am thinking that I will ask for a new liner without border installed, or accept a credit for that amount. As far as I am concerned, PB can walk after he finishes up, if he will not concede to an equitable settlement for me. I refuse to pay 'professionals' full price for below grade work:mad: . My PB acts as though he has never made any mistakes:rolleyes: . On the otherhand, if I had chosen a borderless liner, I would be happy. I wish the PB would have told me that my border might not turn out straight, because I would have made a different choice, not only in liner, but also in PB.

Hancop, do you have a border? Sounds like your PB and mine are related:D .

[tenax]

i'm no lawyer, but i do have a lot of experience in building new houses and it should be no different that a customer has the right to a holdback if work is not done satisfactorily. i'm very happy for you that you have money not paid yet. it can be an amazing motivator:)

[hancop]

Tenax-yes i have a border and you can see the one inch drop between the deep end and the shallow end. Unfortunately, I have paid the pool builder already.

[webfeet]

TO:Waste, Thanks for responding to my IM this date. Was unable to IM back. Nonetheless, the PB has agreed to pull back the liner and clean the pool crete from the walls. He will have to drop the water level about 1 and 1/2 feet .
To everyone: I wonder how many gallons of water will be lost? Pool is 40'6" x 20'6" grecian style. Anyone have any idea? I think I have about 800 sf of swim area, but I don't know to calculate the gallons. :confused:
Thanks, Webfeet

[cschnurr]

1' deep x 800 sqft= 800 cubic feet = 5984.416 US gallons

[webfeet]

Thanks, I really appreciate the calculation.