Pump Restart Issue when COLD

[elsie]

(1) I have a Hayward sand filter pump, I think maybe a 1.5 HP, but don't recall off hand. I had the motor replaced in Spring of last year. Afterwards, like always, I ran the pump 24/7 (except for a few minutes here and there when I emptied the secondary strainer basket at the pump) until last September when I covered the pool and then, like now, I ran the pump half days until October when the water cools down more. Last winter, as I will do this winter, I then just run the pump those handful of times when the outdoor temperature goes below freezing (thus, I never really close my pool, rather just cover it).

The same thing is happening now that happened all last winter. When the pump is off for a half day or longer, and I turn it on, the motor sounds like it's groaning. I do have prime, however. The jets are going as I can see the pool cover moving slightly. The secondary basket's o-ring is always replaced each year and I lubricate it often and the basket cover is very tight (no leaks). It sounds as if the impeller is struggling. I doubt it's impeded, because otherwise it would stay impeded.

After 5-15 minutes, the groaning stops and the motor hums perfectly like it should. While the motor is groaning, the pressure gauge sits at zero. During the time it's groaning, it slowly starts to climb. Ultimately--when the pump stops groaning and hums like it should--the gauge reads its usual baseline which is 20. During the summer season when I turn the pump off to clean the strainer basket then restart the pump, there is no groaning, just the perfect hum, so the groaning only happens when the pump has been turned off for a period of hours. I only backwashed twice this past 4-month season, once in the middle and once last weekend when I covered. And in both instances, my pressure didn't indicate I needed to (I use a leaf rake and vacuum up only fine particles), but it just seemed that I "should."

Any ideas? I'm trying to ascertain whether I should call a pool servicing outfit.

(2) On another note, is it necessary to run my pump/filter at all now, even though we still have outdoor temps in the high 80's? If you're wondering why I covered it so early, it's because in late August my pool only gets a few hours of sunshine because the position of the sun shifts and a huge pine tree blocks it out much of the day (if it shines) and the nights cool into the 60's and it's no longer warm enough to swim. Ironically, with the cover on, it will actually warm up now before it cools down. When I covered last weekend the water temp was 82 (by end of this week with lower outdoor temperatures it would've been several degrees cooler than that, although with cover the water temperature may actually exceed 82. Algae needs sun to grow, no? Of course I got it up to shock level which is about 15 for my pool. By the way, that CL level of 15 will drift down to only about 5 when I open in 8 months. Amazing.

I appreciate any comments!

Elsie

[tenax]

my prior sta-rite (don't know old it was but at least 5 yrs, i bet longer) made a squealing noise when cold which i took to be something with the bearings related to cold temperatures..once warmed up, always worked fine..replaced cause i got a good deal on a sta-rite max-e-pro and was replacing other equipment..i'm keeping it as a backup (the old one) cause it still works, doesn't leak and nice to have around.

i could be wrong on the bearings thing but it definitely was startup related..i'm guessing now it's kind of like a cold car and the oil being thick type idea...and maybe some bearing replacement helping this out. my new one starts right away with no squeals.

[Poconos]

Elsie,
Strange problem. If it were just bearing or seal noise I would expect the pressure would be up immediately after starting as the shaft and impeller are turning at the right speed. If a bearing is seizing enough to keep the RPMs down and not pump water, 0 pressure, then in the 5-15 minute time frame there would be enough heat generated to burn up the bearing totally. Are you sure you have a full water charge? i.e. is the pump basket totally filled when the problem is present? Are there air bubbles out the return jets? Sure sounds like you have trapped air or air leaking into the suction side somewhere and it just takes that time to blow out.
Best I can think of for now.
Al

[South_Texas_Sun]

Hi Elsie,

We have Hayward pumps too and the "groaning" from ours is just the sound of temporary self-priming. There's water in the basket, but not a full basket chamber's worth, like when it's running properly and you can look at the basket window and see stuff swirling around.

Do you, by any chance, have a sloping yard for your pool? Our backyard is slightly sloped and the equipment pad is above the pool, so we're planning on adding checkvalves to all the lines that lose pump priming when turned off.

You mentioned the o-rings around the Hayward pump gasket being lubed regularly? I asked the Hayward rep how often to lube and replace them, and (surprise!) he said not to use them at all......They're only used for pump testing from the factory.

In any case, he took them out and they've been sitting on the equipment pad ever since, with the pumps working just fine.

If you have pump questions, you might try the Hayward tech support line. I've seldom seen such good customer support in end user products. :)

Hth,

STS

[Poconos]

STS,
I've got to be misinterpreting something in your post. Are you saying the rep told you they remove the basket gasket and don't use it? I believe the Hayward AG pumps usually have a circular basket lid thus the comment about an O-ring. Others are square or rectangular. I can't believe there would be an adequate seal without a soft gasket of some sort. I can't believe Hayward can economically mold parts to an accuracy that would negate use of a sealing gasket/O-ring. Take a close look at your lid and see if something is there. If it's just a plastic to plastic (or some hard material) seal then I just don't understand.
Al

[tenax]

i wondered about the seal as well. (i don't have hayward. a sta-rite man) further re: gasket..i have been told by pool store guys not to bother lubricating the o ring (they say it's self lubricating) i say bs...what..it has silicone inside it? whether it needs it or not, i spray with a silicon spray a couple times a season. i think it's just their way to reduce the life and make me buy rings more often. there is no way with lubrication that it should have to be replaced every season.

[elsie]

I'm wondering about misinterpretation as well. To the best of my knowledge the secondary strainer basket at pump location must have a rubber gasket and must be lubricated frequently, and I believe should be changed out with a new one every season. Without a gasket that's in good shape and lubed, I am quite sure the basket would not have a good seal.

Poconos, I, too, think that because of the strange behavior of the pressure gauge, that whatever's happening shouldn't be happening: that gauge should pop up to baseline immediately. Odd thing is that when I look in the strainer basket, I see no bubbles and, in fact, cannot even be sure there's water -- maybe there isn't. What I will do tonight is turn pump on, and I'm sure the motor will groan, and then turn off and immediately use my board to wrench the lid to the basket off and see if there's water. That will at least clear that question up one way or the other.

Because the cover's on now, I can't be sure I have full prime, although there again I could take a few water bags off and stick my upper body under it and put my hand in front of one of the jets. I'm very familiar with the strength of water coming from the jets so that may (or may not) clear up another question.

I think "at the end of the day," I will have to have a pool service come out. I'll keep you apprised, and appreciate everyone's input.

[Poconos]

Elsie,
Easy way to tell if there's water in the pump chamber is to turn the pump on for a second then shut it off. If it's empty the pump/motor will spin down slowly over several seconds. If there is a full water charge or a good partial charge it will stop almost immediately.
Al

[South_Texas_Sun]

STS,
I've got to be misinterpreting something in your post. Are you saying the rep told you they remove the basket gasket and don't use it? I believe the Hayward AG pumps usually have a circular basket lid thus the comment about an O-ring. Others are square or rectangular. I can't believe there would be an adequate seal without a soft gasket of some sort. I can't believe Hayward can economically mold parts to an accuracy that would negate use of a sealing gasket/O-ring. Take a close look at your lid and see if something is there. If it's just a plastic to plastic (or some hard material) seal then I just don't understand.
Al

Hi Al,

Sorry I didn't see your reply at first. (wish there was some kind of notification about new posts on a posted topic.)

No, you didn't misread that. The o-ring on my Hayward Northstar pumps stay out upon installation.

I'm talking about the large REDDISH o-ring that's a pain to put on. He (the Hayward rep) told me that it's not necessary for the enduser, and I believe him, because there's a fixed black gasket on the pump window deck that forms an excellent seal while the pump is running. (Just TRY to take off the windowed cover while the pump is running if you don't believe it....lol)

We may be comparing apples to oranges though, because the only experience I have is with the Hayward northstar pumps.

hth,

STS

[Poconos]

STS,
Thanks for clearing that up. Don't know what that reddish thing is.
Al

[tenax]

on't know about the red seal, texas, but yeah, the black o-ring is what i was thinking about.

elsie, there is no reason that the big black o-ring should have to be replaced seasonally..it won't hurt, but i would rather invest in a can of silicone lube spray for 4 bucks then buy a new seal for 15 to 20 every year. you also then have it to lube as you see fit throughout the season..one spray can will last for years. the added benefit i've had with it is if you are opening up connectors with the small black o-rings during close up for the season as i need to do, i have the spray handing to silicon lube those as well. it works great.

[South_Texas_Sun]

on't know about the red seal, texas, but yeah, the black o-ring is what i was thinking about.

elsie, there is no reason that the big black o-ring should have to be replaced seasonally..it won't hurt, but i would rather invest in a can of silicone lube spray for 4 bucks then buy a new seal for 15 to 20 every year. you also then have it to lube as you see fit throughout the season..one spray can will last for years. the added benefit i've had with it is if you are opening up connectors with the small black o-rings during close up for the season as i need to do, i have the spray handing to silicon lube those as well. it works great.

Hi Tenax, yes, the red seal was a puzzlement to me too.

It seems odd that Hayward would include the useless o-ring, because most customers (me included) would struggle with the thing for the life of the pump, unless (as in my case) there was a kindly Hayward rep standing next to me, pointing out my wayward Hayward ways. :)

STS

[Watermom]

Hi Al,

Sorry I didn't see your reply at first. (wish there was some kind of notification about new posts on a posted topic.)



Actually, there is a way to know when new posts have been added to a thread. Click on the name of the thread to open it. Then, near the top, click on "thread tools." Within the drop down menu will be a place to subscribe to that particular thread. You can choose to receive e-mail or private message notice of any new activity for that thread. Hope this helps.

[South_Texas_Sun]

Actually, there is a way to know when new posts have been added to a thread. Click on the name of the thread to open it. Then, near the top, click on "thread tools." Within the drop down menu will be a place to subscribe to that particular thread. You can choose to receive e-mail or private message notice of any new activity for that thread. Hope this helps.

Ahh....thank you, Watermom! :)

STS

[tenax]

i just use the "new posts" button all the time..that way i can haunt many threads quickly:)

[elsie]

Just thought I'd share my observations over these past few days.

But, first, Tenex, I'm still confused. The black o-ring that is the gasket for the secondary basket at the pump location, and which I was told should be replaced each season (and lubed regularly) only cost a couple of bucks. I thought that gaskets suffer wear that the eye cannot see, and so we replace them. In that you mention "15 or 20" (meaning bucks), I'm wondering if I'm not on the same page? I admit, while I can replace a rotted fence post, paint my entire house, put down an acrylic stain on my deck concrete, technical I am surely not, so I wouldn't be surprised if I am just not comprehending.

I did some experiments, and I have concluded--at least I'm fairly certain--that my pressure gauge simply isn't working. I can turn the pump off after running properly for hours, and it doesn't drop back back down to zero, remaining stuck at 15 or 20 or 10 (virtually, wherever it "decided" to be at the moment). I can turn the pump off then on immediately, and it would sit at zero, but maybe a half hour later it would be at 15, or 20, then later, perhaps slip down to 10. Since I don't really rely on the gauge to backwash--since I know my pool and how clean I keep it and that I don't have to backwash but once or twice a season--I'm guessing I haven't paid attention to it much this summer and hence didn't notice. I do know that not removing it during the winter when we do have a dozen times or so when it dips below freezing likely did it in as it always does, and I just forgot.

Another experiment: Instead of turning my pump on in the morning when the temperature's in the low-to-mid 70's, I turned it on at noon (for 4 hours) when it's in the high 80's and in direct sun. No groaning of the pump, interestingly enough -- none whatsoever! I did this three days in a row, and it hummed immediately just like it should. Would see a couple of bubbles in the basket but then poof! and they were gone, having gotten full prime.

Then this morning, I turned the pump on at 7:00 a.m. when it was about 66 degrees out. It groaned. A half hour later, when I got back from walking the dogs, it was humming like it should.

I can't help but wonder, as Tenex suggested, if this problem is related to bearings? I'm thinking it's not a self-priming thing, STS, because it appears to get prime immediately? And me, not being technical, have no idea if the bearings are in the motor or in the casing to the motor. I know, it's pitiful. Us girls just weren't taught these kinds of things growing up.

I do know that the motor is in it's second season is all, and that the groaning started last winter when it was cold. It does strike me as intriguing that it groans for a matter of minutes when it's a mere 72 degrees outside but not when it's in the full heat of the day.

I don't have the same service I used last year to install the new motor (they went out of business), but I did call a pool service in the area, and they're $85 an hour. So it could cost me a $100-$200 to have a guy disassemble things in investigation. In that the pump is running like it should, priming like it should, and everything else seems to be going as it should, I'm thinking of not concerning myself with the groaning of my motor. Maybe something was not quite right with the new motor in the first place, bearings or otherwise, but as long as it works...?

Now, onto yet another noise. There is an audible sound, but only if you're standing right next to the multiport, of a little rattling inside the multiport. Alas, can I ignore this as well? I haven't a clue what that might be.

[tenax]

elsie, i gave the price based on how much the pool store wanted when i had to buy a new one..15 bucks..i'm sure in the u.s. you can get them much cheaper. heck, if i had gone to a hydraulic parts supplier, i probably could have got it cheaper..but, i was already in the middle of a 50 dollar an hour service call..so, in for a pound:)

in regards to the pump guage, for the price, replace it and if in a climate where it can get cold, take it off during non pool season. they are easy to damage in the winter..i don't take mine in the house, but i do remove it during winter. it works fine.

if the pump fills with water when it is primed quickly otherwise, i would not worry about the sound if it were me unless it clearly becomes an issue of metal on metal sounding constantly..2 years ago, my old sta-rite started making the squeal sound on startup, even when primed. (or i thought primed)

2 things i found upon investigation.

a) i did have a plumbing leak that was allowing enough air to get in that my pump was not completely full of water at "prime". it would slowly leak during my 6 hour of no pump cycles. not leak completely, but would leak about 1/2 to 2/3 of the pump basket down. that was one issue that i fixed by simply fixing the pipe leak (i had thought maybe it was a seal leak on the pump..it was not) so clarifying where you may have leaks is important..whether at the pump, in the pipe system or even at the filter valve (i.e. multiport)

b) the other is i think my pump was simply getting old and upon cold startup, something is wearing out.

i did buy a replacement pump this year as i found a GREAT price on one from a guy who sells rebuilts on ebay...and because i was changing out pretty much everything else in my system and wanted no 'weak" links in the new system..but it was still running fine in spite of noise for 2 years past the time it started and is in my basement as a backup.

while it's a little bit of work, if you are concerned, take it out of the system and to a pump rebuild place..likely save you some money on an at the house the service call and they can bench test it there?

[elsie]

I didn't realize there would be such a large price variance. $20 for a simple rubber gasket? Unbelievable.

I guess I haven't taken the pressure gauge in during the winter because I need to drive 70 miles roundtrip to the pool store to get a plug to screw into the fitting when the gauge is on hiatus in the house. But, I should definitely do that. Are pressure gauges good for more reasons than knowing when to backwash? Or is it just to tell us when the sand filter has too much pressure? It wouldn't have anything to do with the pump motor?

When you talk about the "pump," you mean the motor, yes? I've always referred to the entire contraption--filter, motor, intake, discharge ports, etc. as the pump, and then call the engine of the works the motor. My motor was replaced with a brand new one in Spring of 2005, so it's not old by any means. It would seem a shame to rebuild it. I remember when I first inherited my pool 4 years ago and I used a guy on the side for servicing issues. He told me that a motor only cost $50. I think I paid a couple hundred in Spring of '05 to have it replaced as of course pool places triple the wholesale cost and then charge labor. If a motor is only $50, why not just buy a new one?

Any idea what would cause a small rattling inside the multiport valve? Does it have bearings?

With no technical know-how, I would never dare take the multiport off OR the motor. I have images of 20,000 gallons of water spewing everywhere, flooding the property and draining my pool: what a nightmare! Just don't have enough experience.

Thanks so much for your input/help.

[tenax]

elsei, answers below yours to the best of my knowledge:


I didn't realize there would be such a large price variance. $20 for a simple rubber gasket? Unbelievable.

that's what i say when the local pool stores want the $ they want for anything...(but as has been pointed out, pools in certain parts of canada including mine are very uncommon)

I guess I haven't taken the pressure gauge in during the winter because I need to drive 70 miles roundtrip to the pool store to get a plug to screw into the fitting when the gauge is on hiatus in the house. But, I should definitely do that. Are pressure gauges good for more reasons than knowing when to backwash? Or is it just to tell us when the sand filter has too much pressure? It wouldn't have anything to do with the pump motor?

while it's pretty, you don't need a plug...i just put a small bit of rag in where my pressure gauge screws in..it shouldn't have anything to do with the motor aside from if you're pump is not building pressure, in turn your filter won't be getting the pressure, right? i think the pressure gauge serves many purposes..almost more so whether it's up..or down from a normal pressure..i.e. depending on your pump size, 10 maybe the norm..or 20! i found that my "normal" pressure with my 3/4 hp pump was 15..it's 20 with my 1hp pump..if it varies dramatically (more than a few lb) from those norms, then i'm concerned...
When you talk about the "pump," you mean the motor, yes? I've always referred to the entire contraption--filter, motor, intake, discharge ports, etc. as the pump, and then call the engine of the works the motor. My motor was replaced with a brand new one in Spring of 2005, so it's not old by any means. It would seem a shame to rebuild it. I remember when I first inherited my pool 4 years ago and I used a guy on the side for servicing issues. He told me that a motor only cost $50. I think I paid a couple hundred in Spring of '05 to have it replaced as of course pool places triple the wholesale cost and then charge labor. If a motor is only $50, why not just buy a new one?

so if i understand your correctly, you had the "motor" replaced, but not the whole pump, right? so it is possible that there is something wrong with the pump forward of the motor..impeller, etc. again, if you're really concerned about the sound or it's not functioning properly, get it benchtested or someone in..whatever you are most comfortable with. i am assuming that you have unions (connectors) that allow the pump pipe to be detached at both ends on the pump (they can be screwed off?) and do you have a valve or valves (i have 2..one coming from the water feed from the main drain and one from the skimmer feed) to turn off the water flow coming into your pump if so, it's as simple to take off as setting your filter to "close" , turning off the valves for the pipes that feed water into the pump...basically, the pump is then isolated from the water feed..you won't get water all over, you won't have a bunch of air in your pipes.. you will get a bit of water between the valves and your pump that will run out..but it's not going to be a huge amount.


Any idea what would cause a small rattling inside the multiport valve? Does it have bearings?

i've had my multiport valve off to inspect it but i've never noticed any kind of bearing..but someone else could probably answer that better than i for sure
With no technical know-how, I would never dare take the multiport off OR the motor. I have images of 20,000 gallons of water spewing everywhere, flooding the property and draining my pool: what a nightmare! Just don't have enough experience.

you can only work with what you are comfortable with..but it really is simple..if you've isolated the water supply by shutting off the water inlet valve or valves i talked about from the pump (and in turn, the multiport valve)
there will be very little water to worry about


Thanks so much for your input/help.

[elsie]

Tenex, I'm going to print this off and bring it home and do some more sleuthing tonight before dark. So if I turn the water off and put the multiport position to "close," it sounds like I will not drain the pool. Good. When I clean out the 2ndary basket I always turn the water handle off, but water still keeps on coming, so I've never really trusted that it wouldn't keep pouring water. I'll bet that even though the water IS turned off, it's still gotta empty out what's there between the valve and discharge. I sure wish I understood all the plumbing. It would be nice to know it and have the confidence to fix things. If I decide to have a service guy out, heck I'll take an extra hour for $85 and have him take the thing apart so in the future I can do it. That would probably be a very good investment. Okay, so the pump is the impeller, I get it. The motor makes the impeller go. I suppose if I could stick my hand through the piping at the bottom of the 2ndary basket I would run right into the impeller. Not that I would want to. :)

You see, "old dogs CAN..."

[tenax]

yes, you are on the right track..actually, if you take your basket out of the "pump", you might be able to actually see the impeller..like a big plastic fan with fins (it would be right in that bigger size part of the pump housing just in front of the motor..that has cooling vents usually that cool the impeller on the shaft..where the impeller attaches to the shaft can wear out. (some use a keyway or groove) so that the impeller can make noise and slide back and forth a little on the shaft)

and you're right..if you have... and close the valves..(mine have red handles by the way..the ball valves as mine are called are pretty common you'll see on many pics) and shut off the multivalve by putting it to close (in effect..having the same "close the valve effect on the other side of the pump) then all that's left for water is what is in the plumbing and the pump that is between the the multivalve and the other valves..so yeah, you could well have a couple gallons of water. if you take off the pump, just carefully take it to wherever you can dump it by keeping it level of course..no point spilling anymore inside your shed or whatever than necessary. it should have a drainage plug or 2 on the pump so when you don't have to try to tip it upside down or anything..just put on concrete, take out the plugs and let it drain.

some people will try to drain it dry by simply running it with the drain plugs open.i cannot advise such a way.

[Poconos]

Elsie,
If you're sticking your fingers in the impeller area just make sure the pump cannot kick on. On the multi-port rattling noise, it is trapped air bubbles kicking around. Eventually they should blow out and it will be quiet. Depends on flow rate and pressures.
Al

[tenax]

yeah, that's a good point on the impeller..and make sure the power is foff at the breaker before working on a pump!

[elsie]

Well, on the coldest night of the season here in Alabama--when it was forecast to be in the teens overnight and I needed to run the pump--the noise in my pump upon start up was so loud I didn't dare run it. Fortunately I had wrapped all the pipes the week before in case of such an occurrence (or a power failure). Pool guy came yesterday. What it was all this time is that the inept pool service I used two years ago to replace the Sta-Rite motor did not replace the older seal, and it leaked water into the motor which destroyed the bearings. I did notice upon start up every time that a quick shot of water would shoot from the motor. So that was it. The wtaer killed the bearings. Apparently the Sta-Rite motor, made in Mexico, isn't of a real high quality, he told me, so I didn't bother with driving the old motor some 80 miles round trip to have it rebuilt at $70 for a back-up. Cost of replacement was $170 for the motor and I'm guessing $100 for the < hour labor (they'll bill me).

I was reassured by this service guy that in the event of a power failure in the winter on one of the nights it drops below freezing, that our freeze line is only a foot and even that never happens because our freezes are so brief, so not to worry about the skimmer or return lines. He said that wrapping the pipes and putting a blanket over the secondary trap will avert anything bursting. I'm relieved because it's so much easier not to have to deal with closing it each Fall. I can just do what I've been doing for four years which is wait for that perfect windless, dry day in early September to cover it and eventually take 10 minutes and $25 in various insulators to wrap pipes (I wouldn't cover it but for living on a heavily-treed lot). Have yet to find PVC foam that will fit over the 2" pipes, so it's piecemealed with that vertically and when I ran out and didn't want to drive to HD, a silver insulating wrap that I got at local hardware store. Then I used duct tape to keep everything hanging together. Looks like it belongs in the ghetto, but who cares in the winter?

I was also reassured to read recent posts on how long it generally takes for water to freeze. I can sleep easy now whether power or equipment failure.

[dawndenise]

If you're worried about your pressure gauge, you can put a styrofoam faucet/outdoor spigot cover over it. I use l-o-n-g bungee cords to hold it securely on the top of my cartridge filter. Knock on wood...so far, so good and our temps have dipped below freezing overnight almost every night since early December. During a cold week, we dipped into the single digits overnight and stayed below freezing during the day.