Electrical Shock

[hsdancer]

Help. I've got a problem with my pool that is baffling me. When I reach out from the pool and touch the pavers (wet) I get a mild shock. I have measured the voltage from the pool water to the sand in the cracks of the pavers and get 4.5vac. I checked the bond wire at the pump and it is connected properly to the lug (The bond wire, #8 solid coper, goes all the way around the pool and attaches to the coping every two feet). In my attempt to trace the problem to its source, I turned off the main power at the house (which feeds the house as well as the pool house and pump), and I still get the 4.5vac. I have no other source of power in the house, so I assumed that the problem was coming from the SMECO (our power company). They came out and took some measurements and said that the problem was not on their end.

When I disconnect the bond wire from the pump lug, the shock goes away, but there is a potential difference of 4.5vac between the pump case and the bond wire. I ran an additional #8 ground wire between the pump lug and the electrical ground box, and the shock is still present.

Basically, I think that I have a 4.5vac potential on my entire house ground, but have no idea of what to do.

Is it possible that our saltwater pool (with lots of iron in the soil) could be a generator?

Any ideas?

Thanks.
Cliff

[duraleigh]

Hi, Cliff,

I am ignorant about bonding but JohnT gave me some good advice. He is particulary knowledgeable and may be able to help. (There are others on the forum who have a handle on it as well but I can't think of their usernames right now)

I'd PM him so he doesn't miss this post. As you obviously realize, it's a problem that needs resolution.

[huskyrider]

The few times I've seen situations (except in ours you felt a very mild shock when touching the water) like yours the problem ended up being the neutral. I don't know what the power company did to fix or where they found the problem with the neutral wire.
Good luck!!!

See Ya,
Kelly

[JohnT]

Stray voltage is pretty common, but not always easily explained. The most common cause is less than ideal grounding practices on transmission lines. Other possible sources are non-code wiring by neighbors, malfunctioning electric motors, and defective neutral wires in the area.
Bonding should keep you from feeling the stray voltage at the pool. The effect you are seeing is probably a result of your deck being unbonded. Normally, the deck of an inground pool is bonded via the rebar in the concrete. In your case, this is not possible.
What I think might be causing this the fact that the pool deck is grounded by contact with the earth at the pool, but the pool equipment is grounded via the pump bond lug at the house's service entrance. Even without a stray voltage situation, the voltage of the ground varies quite a bit over even short distances.
Before doing anything, I would suggest you verify that your electrical service is properly grounded at the service entrance, and that the neutral connections are tight in your box. Then contact your power company and tell them you are having stray voltage issues, and ask if they can come out and verify the connections in their equipment. They may not be much help, but if you happen to live in an area that experiences this regularly, they might be a big help.
With all of that said and done, if it were my pool, I would try adding an 8 ft copper ground rod near the pump, and connecting it to the bond lug on the pump in addition to the existing bond wire. Although this is not required by code, it isn't disallowed either. My hunch is this will solve your problem of being shocked.
I've never thought about the issue of using pavers for a deck as it relates to bonding before. There is new version of the NEC in the works, and it appears it will require a copper mesh under the entire pool area as part of the bonding system. I would suspect that to be safe, a paver deck should have this mesh under it as well, and that technically it isn't to code without it now, since the wet pavers are condcutive.

[MarkC]

A coworker of mine also had this issue and in his case it was found to be caused by some problem with the cable TV wiring on his site.

[cleancloths]

I would suggest you go back to square one. Turn off the main breaker to the house and see if you still measure a voltage - that will rule out your electrical system. If you still do, then turn the main on and all the other breakers off, is it there? If not, turn on one breaker at a time and take measurements. It might be an open neutral on one circuit or a ground/neutral reversal somewhere.

[South_Texas_Sun]

Hi hsdancer,

You didn't give enough info about your pool to "diagnose" the electrical fault, but you did mention that disconnecting your "bond" wire (I assume that's another name for the ground wire/lug) stopped the voltage flow.

If I were you. I would get an 8' copper ground stake from the electrical dept. at Home Depot/Lowes (about $13) and pound it into the ground near your pool and equipment pad, then connect the chassis ground lugs on your equipment to the copper EARTH GROUNDED stake.

Many times, the "service ground" wire from the power company has a potential voltage above earth ground and a potential can develop on anything connected to the power company ground but grounded WELL to earth ground.

I can't THINK of a better way to ground YOURSELF than being immersed in SALT WATER and touching a source voltage! (lol.....sounds dangerous, doesn't it?

Also, I would worry about being able to physically "feel" 4.5VAC. Normally it takes a larger voltage than that to be able to feel a shock. (for example, the low 12vdc voltage but nearly unlimited instantaneous current flow available from an ordinary car battery.)

What I'm saying is....it may be a MUCH larger voltage that you're just unable to measure for some reason. (autoranging meter? wet spot not salty, etc.)

So I would also check that you have the electrical equipment connected correctly with matching "hot" and "return" lines connected the same way on all equipment.

You may have heard of rock stars who have been electrocuted by touching the microphone in wet weather (which is usually caused by plugging the sound reinforcement into ungrounded or reverse wired outlets) and you MAY be in a similar situation here, so I would check it out before you have a real accident.

Any indication of stray voltage like this is potentially EXTREMELY HAZARDOUS and is an accident just waiting to happen to someone who unwittingly makes a "better connection" and sits or somehow touches the wrong spot on the pool. Fortunately, it's a simple fix even if we don't completely understand why the problem exists.

Hope that helps :)

STS

[johnm92627]

I would suggest you go back to square one. Turn off the main breaker to the house and see if you still measure a voltage - that will rule out your electrical system. If you still do, then turn the main on and all the other breakers off, is it there? If not, turn on one breaker at a time and take measurements. It might be an open neutral on one circuit or a ground/neutral reversal somewhere.

I am an electrical contractor and I would have to agree this is the best way to start. If it doesn't locate your problem (but it should) then drive the ground rod.

[JohnT]

Sure hope it isn't a sign of problems to come!
Good luck!

It is a sign of problems. Your pool deck isn't bonded, and if it were to come in contact with a higher voltage source, you could be electrocuted when you touch the deck. Your pool company screwed up. Your electric company fixed a symptom, not the root problem.

[South_Texas_Sun]

I'm an EE by training and home/pool wiring is not rocket science. I joke with my brother in law about being a "4 wire technician" because that's pretty much what he does as an electrician.

But you absolutely.....no way around it.......need a good earth ground! That means 1-3 8' copper stakes in the ground and tied securely to your pool ground lugs and equipment lugs.

I wouldn't let anyone GO NEAR the pool, let alone SWIM in it, when you feel ANY ELECTRICAL SHOCK WHATSOEVER!

Sorry about the "yelling" but this can be much more serious than you realize until someone dies as a result. Then the blame game begins.

Pool "code" is weak or non-existant in some states, so don't depend on your contractor to know proper building codes. I caught our electrical contractor trying to install 12 guage wire for 100ft of 100 amp 230VAC supply line to the equipment pad subpanel!

There's more misinformation on the internet than good information, unless you err on the side of caution and check your sources. Do a google search on fatal ground loops......if that doesn't scare you, nothing will.

Don't do electrical work "on the cheap". Especially on a salt water swimming pool!......lol

I'll shut up now. :)

STS

[tenax]

and that's why i'm hiring an electrician..i've done the new wiring for a basement myself and it worked out well..but i'm not playing with water, electricity and breakers!

[JohnT]

But you absolutely.....no way around it.......need a good earth ground! That means 1-3 8' copper stakes in the ground and tied securely to your pool ground lugs and equipment lugs.


I'm an EE as well, and you absolutely do not need an earth ground on a pool system. 2005 NEC had a footnote added to clarify this. The addition of a ground rod can cause stray voltage issues under certain circumstances.

The lugs on the pool and equipment aren't called ground lugs, they are called bonding lugs, and they are used to create an "equipotential plane" which prevents anyone in the pool from coming into contact with any two things that are at significantly different voltages. Ground doesn't enter the equation until the bonding wire is connected to the bonding lug on the pump motor housing, which is grounded via the service lead to the house's service panel ground. Look at NEC 2005 680.26.

[South_Texas_Sun]

I'm an EE as well, and you absolutely do not need an earth ground on a pool system. 2005 NEC had a footnote added to clarify this. The addition of a ground rod can cause stray voltage issues under certain circumstances.

The lugs on the pool and equipment aren't called ground lugs, they are called bonding lugs, and they are used to create an "equipotential plane" which prevents anyone in the pool from coming into contact with any two things that are at significantly different voltages. Ground doesn't enter the equation until the bonding wire is connected to the bonding lug on the pump motor housing, which is grounded via the service lead to the house's service panel ground. Look at NEC 2005 680.26.


No offense, but this is what I mean by bad internet information. The NEC revision IS AN EARTH GROUND, but in grid form for pools that have conductive construction elements that can be separate from a central earth ground, but connected to improperly grounded equipment.

This won't exactly work for someone who's already built the pool! ....lol

Bottom line: Use proper EARTH grounding or get a group funeral plan.

Here's the section:

1. Revise 680.26 (C) & 680.26 (C)(1) as follows:

C) Equipotential Bonding Grid. The parts specified in 680.26(B) shall be connected to an equipotential bonding grid with a
solid copper conductor, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG or rigid metal conduit of brass or other identified
corrosion-resistant metal conduit. Connection shall be made by exothermic welding or by listed pressure connectors or clamps
that are labeled as being suitable for the purpose and are of stainless steel, brass, copper, or copper alloy. The equipotential
bonding grid shall conform to the contours of the pool and shall extend within or under paved walking surfaces for 1 m (3 ft)
horizontally beyond the inside walls of the pool and shall be permitted to be any of the following:
Exception: The equipotential bonding grid shall not be required to be installed under the bottom of or vertically along the walls of
vinyl lined polymer wall, fiberglass composite, or other pools constructed of nonconductive materials. Any metal parts of the
pool, including metal structural supports, shall be bonded in accordance with 680.26(B). For the purposes of this section, poured
concrete, pneumatically applied (sprayed) concrete, and concrete block, with painted or plastered coatings, shall be considered
conductive material.
(1) Structural Reinforcing Steel. The structural reinforcing steel of a concrete pool or deck where the reinforcing rods are bonded
together by the usual steel tie wires or the equivalent. Where deck reinforcing steel is not an integral part of the pool, the deck
reinforcing steel shall be bonded to other parts of the bonding grid using a minimum 8 AWG solid copper conductor. Connection
shall be per 680.26(D).

[Poconos]

Say What? Since when are concrete, paint, and the others considered conductive? Too many variables to make that statement in my opinion but being just a dumb EE I would like to hear some details and an explanation.
Al

Quote from post above.

"For the purposes of this section, poured concrete, pneumatically applied (sprayed) concrete, and concrete block, with painted or plastered coatings, shall be considered conductive material."

[JohnT]

Where does that say to ground anything? The FPN clearly states that no ground electrode is required, and the word ground does not appear in the quoted text.


680.26a Fpn: The 8 Awg Or Larger Solid Copper Bonding Conductor Shall Not Be Required To Be Extended Or Attached To Any Remote Panelboard, Service Equipment, Or Any Electrode.

There is no requirement in the 2005 NEC for grounding anything to do with a pool except as is normal for all electrical wiring. 680.26 establishes the requirement for an equipotential bonding grid, not a ground system. Although the FPN is not enforceable, it indicates the intent of the code, and a proposal changing that text from an FPN to part of the code has been accepted by the TCC for inclusion in the 2008 NEC (proposal 17-114a), while a numerous proposals (most if not all by the same person) requiring the bond wire be connected to a ground rod have been rejected (17-116).

[JohnT]

Say What? Since when are concrete, paint, and the others considered conductive? Too many variables to make that statement in my opinion but being just a dumb EE I would like to hear some details and an explanation.
Al



It is because of "water intrusion", e.g. wet concrete is conductive. The rest of the statement just refers to the method of concrete application.

[mas985]

Sorry to butt in on this one, but having a masters degree in EE myself, last time I checked it did not qualify me to be an electrician. Having said that, it does help to understand electrical theory and with a bit of experience you can do most of what an electrician does. I just don't see the relevance on pointing out you are an EE. In fact, I think I learned more about house wiring and grounding in my shop class in high school.

Also, forgive my arrogance STS but how does one become an EE through just training and not a degree? Technician yes, engineer, I am not so sure.

Now back to the topic. Hsdancer, you mentioned that when you reach out from the pool and step on the pavers you get the shock. Does that mean you are also holding on to a railing? If so, it could mean the railing is not bonded as well. Was it added later?

Regardless of what the code says or does not say, it probably would not hurt anything to try an extra grounding rod near the pad. If it does solve your problem, then the problem is probably with the grounding in the house or power company.

Also, turning off the power in your house does not change the grounding or neutral only shuts off the hot leads so you may not detect it doing this.

[DONNIE]

Don't mean to jump in the middle of your conversation but it sounds like you guys can answer a simple question. I am planning on adding a wood deck, outward from the concrete around my pool. Do I need to ground the deck in any way? Posts will be poured in concrete. Deck may or may not attach to the concrete around the pool.

Donnie

[South_Texas_Sun]

That's NEC text Al. I didn't write it. But if you stand on wet concrete in bare feet, and grab a leg of 220, don't say they didn't warn you!......lol

EVERY material, including your body, pool water, even the air you breath is conductive. Some are more resistive than others, but when you BURY a metal mesh, you have an EARTH GROUND whether you know it or not. (And you EE's should certainly know that!)

ANY resistive element will create a voltage drop across it's length when connected to a source e, so relying on a utility co. "service ground", depends on the conductivity/current carrying capacity of the wire and the connection quality of EVERY TERMINAL in between you and the generator. Lose connection quality at ANY POINT and you've created a voltage drop across that point and in series with the load. And bingo, you've got yourself a ground loop. (just remember, on the murphy side of the equation, we're talking about little people standing in pools of ionized water and carrying long metal poles around)

I'm not here to make enemies, but to learn about pools and make a few friendly acquaintances. I'm not going to take the other side of posturing that will put someone's family in jeopardy, so this'll be my last post on the topic.

I stand behind everything I've written and practice what I preach :) My family is too important to me, not to take the best precautions.

STS

[South_Texas_Sun]

Sorry to butt in on this one, but having a masters degree in EE myself, last time I checked it did not qualify me to be an electrician. Having said that, it does help to understand electrical theory and with a bit of experience you can do most of what an electrician does. I just don't see the relevance on pointing out you are an EE. In fact, I think I learned more about house wiring and grounding in my shop class in high school.

Also, forgive my arrogance STS but how does one become an EE through just training and not a degree? Technician yes, engineer, I am not so sure.

Now back to the topic. Hsdancer, you mentioned that when you reach out from the pool and step on the pavers you get the shock. Does that mean you are also holding on to a railing? If so, it could mean the railing is not bonded as well. Was it added later?

Regardless of what the code says or does not say, it probably would not hurt anything to try an extra grounding rod near the pad. If it does solve your problem, then the problem is probably with the grounding in the house or power company.

Also, turning off the power in your house does not change the grounding or neutral only shuts off the hot leads so you may not detect it doing this.

Devry Institute of Technology BSEE

[mas985]

Devry Institute of Technology BSEE

Ah, I stand corrected.

[mas985]

One thing I never quite did understand is the logic behind bonding the rebar in a concrete deck since all of the rebar is surrounded by a fairly good insulator (concrete). I guess it is in case the rebar comes in contact with other metal that is exposed but I cannot think of any other reason.

Also, I think I remember from one of my power courses that ground, the dirt kind, can and does have changing potential from the house to the power company although they work pretty hard not to have that problem. So it is not inconceivable that the ground near the pool is at a different potential than the ground of the house/pad and both the house and the pool are not at fault.

The source could be from a neighbor's problem or a burried line that has become exposed. One possibility is 12v landscape lighting. It could be close enough to the pool and exposed to the soil to create some potential difference to the bonding wire. One way to confirm this is to test the voltage between ground at the pad and the soil near the pool vs ground at the pad and the grounding rod for the house. Unfortunately, you will need a lot of extra wire to make the runs.

It will certainly take some detective work to find the source.

[JohnT]

One thing I never quite did understand is the logic behind bonding the rebar in a concrete deck since all of the rebar is surrounded by a fairly good insulator (concrete). I guess it is in case the rebar comes in contact with other metal that is exposed but I cannot think of any other reason.


Wet concrete is a pretty good conductor. Connecting the rebar to the bonding grid or putting a bonded metal mesh in the concrete does a fairly good job of connecting the concrete to the bonding system when the concrete is wet.

[mas985]

Wet concrete is a pretty good conductor. Connecting the rebar to the bonding grid or putting a bonded metal mesh in the concrete does a fairly good job of connecting the concrete to the bonding system when the concrete is wet.

I agree that wet concrete is a good conductor on the surface, but when concrete gets wet, I could be wrong but I would not expect the moisture to get all the way down to the rebar which is 2-3" below the surface. The concrete surface is somewhat porous but not as much to allow moisture to get down 2". What I could imagine is that when the concrete cracks it could allow some of the moisture to reach the rebar and then it would make a difference.

[South_Texas_Sun]

I agree that wet concrete is a good conductor on the surface, but when concrete gets wet, I could be wrong but I would not expect the moisture to get all the way down to the rebar which is 2-3" below the surface. The concrete surface is somewhat porous but not as much to allow moisture to get down 2". What I could imagine is that when the concrete cracks it could allow some of the moisture to reach the rebar and then it would make a difference.

Mark, in one of my past "lives" I worked in a government building where they would periodically test the concrete conductivity as an indicator for the corrosion to the rebar embedded in the concrete.

As it turns out, much of the world's population housing and the existance of skyscrapers, bridges, and even nuclear power plants, rests on the natural "miracle" of nearly exact coefficents of thermal expansion between rebar and concrete. Move over, Fibonacci. :)

But what worried me about ....(shading eyes to avoid embarassing direct eye contact of thread-hijacking complaints)......dsamples VINYL pool problem was that his vinyl liner is possibly masking some greater electrical fault that would normally trip a breaker, but doesn't because of the insulation-to-ground properties of the vinyl liner.

I'm not an electrician, but I would imagine that the newly required NEC "grid" requirements mentioned by John are a response to some poor soul's accidental electrocution by a situation very similar to dsamples current dilemma.

I hope it gets fixed, if only for the peace of mind.

STS

[haze_1956]

From original post -


When I disconnect the bond wire from the pump lug, the shock goes away, but there is a potential difference of 4.5vac between the pump case and the bond wire.
If I understand this correctly,

The pool is being enegized with a 4.5 vac current running from the pump case to the pool via the bonding wires. Then when the pavers are touched, the current grounds and gives a shock. Hence the code requirement for a bonded grid below the pavers.

Might running a bonded wire below ground, around the entire outer perimeter of the pavers work?

[Poconos]

Wow, what an interesting thread. Funny too in a way. In the electronics world we don't consider concrete a conductor but yes...you can get shocked bad given the right conditions. Cracks me up sometimes when I go into an electrical supply store and they start rattling off 100 amp wire etc.....I know what I want...Ohms law tells me that. Not criticizing Electricians or the professon but there are those that just follow codes and those that understand the theory. Never read the full NEC but some of the rules don't make sense.
An interesting exercise for those in an urban or suburban location is to take a clamp-on ampmeter and measure currents on water pipe entrances, ground lines off power poles, phone grounds, and anything else you can find. You can totally disconnect your house by dumping the two hots and still find potential differences and currents. BIG difference in rural areas with large distances between sources and many fewer problems.
Someone commented about degrees....from what I've observed in the industry, an engineer is degreed. we all know the definitions:
BS -- Bull ****
MS -- More ****
PhD -- Piled Higher and Deeper.

I'm full of Bull from the place voted the ugliest campus in the U.S. on a Princeton survey per the national news in the last couple days.

I needed some humor today.
Al

[JohnT]

dsamples VINYL pool problem was that his vinyl liner is possibly masking some greater electrical fault that would normally trip a breaker, but doesn't because of the insulation-to-ground properties of the vinyl liner.



There has been a move to add a requirement to code to put a plate in the pool for vinyl and fiberglass pools to bond the water. It has been rejected so far because there isn't an agreement on the need, and the size requirements etc. are unknown due to the variety of water conditions and pool sizes. Realistically, the ladder SHOULD function as a bonding electrode for the water, and any current from a household line should clear its ground fault via the ladder--bond wire--pump housing--panel ground path.
Most of the time, the source of such voltage is the poor neutral wiring practices of the utility, so there is no fault to clear.

[South_Texas_Sun]

Wow, what an interesting thread. Funny too in a way. In the electronics world we don't consider concrete a conductor but yes...you can get shocked bad given the right conditions. Cracks me up sometimes when I go into an electrical supply store and they start rattling off 100 amp wire etc.....I know what I want...Ohms law tells me that. Not criticizing Electricians or the professon but there are those that just follow codes and those that understand the theory. Never read the full NEC but some of the rules don't make sense.
An interesting exercise for those in an urban or suburban location is to take a clamp-on ampmeter and measure currents on water pipe entrances, ground lines off power poles, phone grounds, and anything else you can find. You can totally disconnect your house by dumping the two hots and still find potential differences and currents. BIG difference in rural areas with large distances between sources and many fewer problems.
Someone commented about degrees....from what I've observed in the industry, an engineer is degreed. we all know the definitions:
BS -- Bull ****
MS -- More ****
PhD -- Piled Higher and Deeper.

I'm full of Bull from the place voted the ugliest campus in the U.S. on a Princeton survey per the national news in the last couple days.

I needed some humor today.
Al

I graduated from "Durvee Tech" as we used to call it, in 1974....the first of 3 degrees. Back then we used slide rules instead of calculators for trig functions because the 4 banger calculators wouldn't do sin, cos, tan etc, and besides.......the instructors (correctly, I feel) thought that doing the powers of 10 in your head left less room for error. You actually had to THINK about the (im)probability of your numbers. My dad had a this huge Tektronix storage o'scope that did a paper strip chart of 30 seconds worth of 1 channel data. I used it to get myself hired as a TV tech to put myself through school.

FF to now......I can't do math anymore because I lost my HP in the RV at the river. And I can't read the tiny printing (because of multiple language instruction manuals) of my other calculator, so I just use it as a four banger. Everything else is software.

The Tektronix is a family "heirloom", permanently awaiting long-discontinued tubes, while my Fluke DSO (that can be held with one hand while talking on a cell phone at the same time) has a hall-effect DC current clamp accessory that will run a 24 hour strip chart and let me see an AC+DC waveform and display peak and "lo" RMS or instantaneous transient values. Like you mentioned (Al) it's suprising how durable today's gadgets are, given the vagaries of local power utilities and their aging infrastructure. Our line freqs aren't even constant out here. (Tx hill country)

Everything has changed except the time it takes to get finished with work.The only thing I can think of that is pretty much the same, then as now, is the fun of going swimming. :)

STS

[South_Texas_Sun]

There has been a move to add a requirement to code to put a plate in the pool for vinyl and fiberglass pools to bond the water. It has been rejected so far because there isn't an agreement on the need, and the size requirements etc. are unknown due to the variety of water conditions and pool sizes. Realistically, the ladder SHOULD function as a bonding electrode for the water, and any current from a household line should clear its ground fault via the ladder--bond wire--pump housing--panel ground path.
Most of the time, the source of such voltage is the poor neutral wiring practices of the utility, so there is no fault to clear.

Ladder?????

(slapping forehead)......I knew our new pool was missing something! :)

[JohnT]

How do I get the electrical issue fixed?
What steps do I have an electrician/engineer follow to find the problem with our pool? No rebar or wire was put in our concrete decking before or during the pouring of the concrete. The ground wires are in the couping as far as I know.
How do you get a non-responsive pool company to fix the problem?
HELP, Please!
I do live in a rural area. The pool is vinyl 20x40. Mineral Springs system. Sand filter.

Gayle, you are in a difficult situation. The power company may be able to help with the stray voltage, if the will. Being in a rural area may help in that regard, as they may have some familiarity with stray voltage. As to getting an electrician, good luck. Virtually none of them know anything about pool wiring.

You have two distinct issues that probably aren't related. First, you have a stray voltage issue with your property. Second, your pool installation wasn't properly bonded. If you didn't have both, you wouldn't be aware of either.
Fixing the stray voltage problem won't make your pool any safer, just less annoying. Normally, the low level voltage isn't a safety threat, although if you don't know the source, you can't be sure. The real safety issue is the bonding problem. As easily as it allows the stray voltage to be felt, it could allow you to be electrocuted if something like a backhoe or TV tower or grain auger were to touch a power line and the ground at the same time while someone was in the pool.
The only solution is to connect the deck and the metal of the pool together electrically. There is just no easy way once the concrete is in. If it were my pool, I would consider boring into the concrete from the outside edge to where you can hammer in pieces of rebar horizontally every few feet, and connect the ends with #8 wire and connect that to the bonding wire. I don't think that would meet code, but it might fix it. You'd probably have to dig holes so you could get the drill in place.

Good luck.

[hsdancer]

Thanks for all the feedback. I have not gotten a chance to do any troubleshooting in the past several days, but I thought that I would provide a little more information about the pool and its surroundings:


-We live in southern Maryland on 6.5 acres at the end of the road.
-All of the power lines are underground and we are the last house one the line. Basically, we are the last house on a ridge line and the electircal transformer is 300 ft away from the house, on the opposite side of the pool. On the other side of the ridge is a horse farm.
-Our closest neighbor is more than 800 ft away and our house lies between the pool and our neighbor's house.
-There are no power poles or electical lines through our property, or anywhere within sight.
-We have a well between the house and the pool.
-We have no ladder or handrail in the pool, so there is no metal connection between the pool water and the bonding wire that runs around the pool. The coping does not come in contact with the pool water either. Basically, the pool water is insulated by the liner.
-All piping is 3" PVC; we have 3 aqua-genie's and no drain.
-The bonding wire lies in sand/dirt/compacted gravel as it travels around the pool and into the pool house where it connects to the pump lug; the bonding wire is about 180' in length and connects to the aluminum coping every 18"-24".
-The pool is a liner pool with polymer walls. The bottom is vermiculite/ cement (upon which the liner rests).
-The coping is "C" coping and the pool has a 6" wide and 6" deep concrete (w/fiberglass) collar around the top with no rebar.
-The pavers are level with this concrete, and sit on a bed of sand and 6" of compacted CR6.
-The pool is L shaped 44'x20' & 36'x16'.
-The pool has a Salt water generator (220vac) which is connected in parallel with the Hayward pump (2hp), wired for 220vac, i.e., both are on the same ckt breaker and swithed on together. There is no timer.
-My understanding is that the only way the copper bonding loop ever connects electrically to the pool water is through the pool pump.

I will try to attach a picture of the set up (no luck).

Again thanks for all the help. I will be performing a few more measurements this weekend to see if I can isolate the problem. I thought that the 180' of bonding wire would also serve as a ground, but since it lies mostly in sand, that may not be the case. I like the idea of a second bonding loop and an additional copper ground....

[Poconos]

Back to the original poster HSDANCER, Cliff. Read most of this long thread again and either I missed it or you didn't say if you live in a rural area or someplace with close neighbors. Like LA where neighbors can be feet away. If you're very rural it should be pretty easy to isolate the problem because power poles are more widely spaced and once you come off the transformer it's only your house involved. If you have close neighbors it could be a problem on one of their properties. Of course then you have the added complexity of transformer sharing, neighborhood phone lines, cable TV, water and sewer pipes etc. Wish there was an easy button.
Al

[JohnT]

-We have a well between the house and the pool.

-We have no ladder or handrail in the pool, so there is no metal connection between the pool water and the bonding wire that runs around the pool. The coping does not come in contact with the pool water either. Basically, the pool water is insulated by the liner.

-The pool has a Salt water generator (220vac) which is connected in parallel with the Hayward pump (2hp), wired for 220vac, i.e., both are on the same ckt breaker and swithed on together. There is no timer.

-My understanding is that the only way the copper bonding loop ever connects electrically to the pool water is through the pool pump.



I extracted a few things that might be worth thinking about:

Wells can contribute to stray voltage issues if they have any wiring issues. Sometimes they are wired by people who aren't electricians.

Your pool is somewhat unique in that your water is truly insulated from everything by the polymer walls and lack of a ladder.

Is your SWCG connected to the bonding system? This is a system designed to electrically contact pool water, so it could be a source.

The water should never come into contact with the electrical system ground via the pump unless there is a seal failure in the pump.


When you pull the bond wire from the pump case, barring a leaking pump, you are only disconnecting the pool bonding from your electrical system ground. It would appear that in your case, your bond wire is actually energizing your paver decking. That's not too surprising since you are somewhat remote. Your utility's service is probably poorly wired allowing significant difference between the ground and neutral.

Based on what you've said, I have to assume you don't have a light in the pool either, as this would tend to bond the water as well. If you do have a light, I'd bet it isn't bonded.

[hsdancer]

I forgot. I do have a niche light (wet) and it is connected to the same bonding loop around the pool, so the pool water is electrically connected to the bond wire.

[mas985]

From everything you have posted, it sounds as though the bonding wire has a potential difference from true ground and your pavers are not bonded. From your first post, I assume your know how to use a volt meter so do you think you know how measure the voltage between your house neutral and ground? This can be dangerous if you do not know what you are doing so please be very careful. But this can confirm the power companies contention that ground and neutral are fine. There should not be more than 0.5 vac between ground and neutral in the house. I just measured my and it is less than 40 millivolts. [TYPO]

Again, if you do not feel comfortable doing this test, then please don't. But if you do then you can do this measurement at the house breaker box or at an outlet. Newer outlets use the larger of the two long slots for neutral and the center round prong is ground. Rember that the short slot is hot.

If your ground and neutral are ok, then the power company was correct and something must be wrong with the pool ground. You can then repeat the test at the pool breaker box and see if those ground and neutrals are ok.

If those are ok then the soil around the pool must be at different potential then the bonding wire meaning the problem could be in the well as John suggested or another underground wire.

[South_Texas_Sun]

(deep breath) At the risk of starting the brouhaha all over again....(and I SWORE I wasn't going to get back into this, dang it) Cliff said that when he lifted the ground wire from the pump motor, the shock went away, right?

Why not TRY a ground wire to an 8 foot copper stake (pounded into the ground) that's connected to the same lug on the pump motor? Or am I missing something? The worst case scenario is that he'd have a better ground and a starting point to measure voltage if it doesn't solve the problem.

Also, you probably can't feel a shock (and this from someone who's been shocked more times and ways than a porn star's grandma) from a 4.5 vac, 40ma "leak". It's probably much higher than this, but can't be displayed on the meter because it's too cheap, or the "ballistics" too slow (digital), or the sample rate too slow, or it's autoranging and doesn't "see" the peaks, or all of these.....SO BE CAREFUL :)

On a lighter note, I think I found what my pool's electrical contractor does in his spare time:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=402250&in_page_id=1770

STS

[mas985]

STS,

I agree that will probably solve getting shocked at the pool but he should really find out the cause of the problem to make sure it is not a symptom of something more serious.

[huskyrider]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770


What an IDIOT!!!

See ya,
Kelly

[haze_1956]

Cliff,

Did you finally find a solution to the electrical issue?

I hate not knowing how a story ends !! :D
-

[tenax]

-My understanding is that the only way the copper bonding loop ever connects electrically to the pool water is through the pool pump.

I will try to attach a picture of the set up (no luck).

Again thanks for all the help. I will be performing a few more measurements this weekend to see if I can isolate the problem. I thought that the 180' of bonding wire would also serve as a ground, but since it lies mostly in sand, that may not be the case. I like the idea of a second bonding loop and an additional copper ground....

fyi, my pump, heater and swcg are all connected to the bonding wire. if i recall correctly, my autopilot says that it must be connected to a bonding wire..and my heater had a nice yellow sticker with big letters saying it had to be bonded:) all have water going through them and are electrical, so i wasn't going to argue:)

[gdavis2535]

I am having the same problem and wondered if you fixed your problem?

You said "The bonding wire lies in sand/dirt/compacted gravel as it travels around the pool and into the pool house where it connects to the pump lug; the bonding wire is about 180' in length and connects to the aluminum coping every 18"-24"."

Does the bonding wire just connect to the pump lug or does it also connect to your electrical ground?