Cloudy Water & CL Going Going Gone

[Jakebear]

Can someone give me a hint at what might be happening?

During the last 10 days we have lost an average of around 5 ppm FC per day.
We have been trying to keep the FC over 5ppm because Ben’s BG Chart says to with the CYA at 60ppm.
On Sunday the FC was 4 so we put in 17 oz Cal Hypo By Monday PM the FC was 4 again.
We put 48 oz Cal Hypo in on Monday Evening (mistake should have been 39oz) to raise FC to 12 ppm with an expected loss of 6 ppm during the day. The water got very cloudy.
Tuesday Morning FC was 13 ppm and 7.5 ppm by dark --- Added another 22 oz Cal Hypo. Water was still cloudy.
Wednesday AM FC was 10.5 ppm and 7.0 ppm by dark.. --- Added another 14 oz Cal Hypo. Water is still very cloudy.

We are using up a bucket of 65% Calcium Hypochlorite we bought before we found this site and have not had any pucks in for about a month.

Air temp has been close to 95 in the afternoon every day.
Water temp 82 F in the mornings 87 F when the sun goes down – Running solar system at night to take some heat out. We run the robot everyday to gather up minor dirt and bugs + calcium dust that precipitates out. There is no algae visible.
The pump has been running 24/7 since it got hot.

This evenings test results are:
pH 7.5 Titration
FC 7.0 ppm (FAS-DPD)
TC 7.0 ppm (FAS-DPD)
CC 0 ppm (FAS-DPD)
TA 90 ppm (by titration)
CH 260 ppm (by titration)
Phosphates <100 ppm
EDIT --- CYA 60 ppm with R0013 kit
ORP = 698

These numbers have been consistent throughout except the CL that goes up and down respectively with the additions of Cal Hypo.

The two main questions are ---
Why is the water remaining so cloudy? We have never had this problem before even after shocking.
Why are we loosing so much FC over a 24 hour period?
Should I be worried?

26865 Gallon -- Inground -- Vinyl liner -- DE filter.

[duraleigh]

What is your CYA level?

[Jakebear]

My third sentence from the top states CYA 60 PPM --- but I will edit my results from today so nobody else misses it

[mbar]

You need to take your chlorine level up to 20ppms and keep it there. You are fighting something , that's why your chlorine is dropping overnight. You have to be consistant - get your chlorine up to 20ppms with regular bleach, and test 3x a day and bring it back to 20ppms. If you stay consistant, your water will clear faster. Everytime you see it under 20 - add more bleach. You can use the bleach calc to see how much to add.

[Jakebear]

So --- Shock --- That's it?

We're OK with that, but it seems like we should have some other indicator, like chloromines or something. Could the cloudyness just be from the heat or excess calcium?

We really don't want to shock with the temp near 100 and all the other indicators are good. We want to swim!!

[mbar]

You can shock and swim! Sometimes the water is cloudy, and the combined chlorine is 0, but the chlorine starts to get eaten up = this is because there is enough chlorine in the water to keep the algae from taking over, but not enough to completely kill it all, leaving you with cloudy water. The good news is that if you take it up to shock levels now, you won't have to continue at shock level because it should kill it all once and for all. If you wait, and the aglae takes hold, it will take a lot more effort to kill it - you will have to keep it at shock until it holds overnight. You can swim with shock levels of 20ppms, just wear an old bathing suit.

[Jakebear]

Surely you jest?????

I cannot even imagine swimming in anything above 7 or 8 ppm. There are many posts on this forum that relate to burning eyes and other ill effects when swimming at high CL levels.

Many web sites say nothing above 5 ppm and some state regulations close down the community pools if the Cl is above 10ppm.

Swim at 20 ppm?? ---- you can't be serious!!!

[Rangeball]

It's all relative with your CYA.

20 ppm shock for you is 10 ppm shock for me. The reason you use more is the higher the CYA the less effective the bleach.

I'd swim, but I'd wear older suits you don't mind fading a bit :)

[GraceByDesign]

........... There are many posts on this forum that relate to burning eyes and other ill effects when swimming at high CL levels. ........

I think perhaps what you saw related to CC, or combined chloramines. These are the baddies, not the free chlorine.

[Jakebear]

So when I take the FC up to 20 ppm ----- How long do I keep it that high??

I still don't understand how swimming at 20 ppm can be OK --- If it bleaches your suit it can't be good for the various exposed organs, the skin being the biggest and most exposed. I think I understand the relationship of the CYA and the effectiveness of FC but it is not like it's (the CL) not there.

Also I do not have any CC so again how does this figure into the need to shock equation.

[Simmons99]

Also I do not have any CC so again how does this figure into the need to shock equation.

You are using chlorine overnight? If so - it is because you have something alive in your pool that is using the chlorine. Right now it has not grown to a level that looks bad, but it will continue to grow and use chlorine until you kill it with high chlorine levels.

[Jakebear]

OK and thanks to all ----- BUT

How long do I maintain the FC at 20 ppm?????

I've been searching this site since my last post and have not found that information.

[mbar]

I would suggest taking it up to 20ppms until your water clears up, or you hold it overnight. It probably won't take long, because you have not shown any combined chlorine. You can tell it is all dead because your water will be clear, and there will be dead stuff on the bottom of the pool. Once the water is clear, or you don't use any chlorine overnight, you can let the chlorine fall back down to normal levels for your cya.

[Jakebear]

OK --- Here goes nothin' --- NO swimming tomorrow though -- I still don't buy it's healthy!!!

[mbar]

Read this post:

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=3920&highlight=dangers

Read them all, especially the one by Pool Doc

[duraleigh]

Hi, Jake,

Our family swims all the time at shock level. It has actually improved my son's grades. He's (we call him "three-hands") at the top of his class in Computer Science....his keyboard proficiency is astounding.:D

Seriously, no one should do anything they're not comfortable with but the ppm of chlorine in pools is amazingly low. When you wash your clothes and add Clorox, the chlorine ppm in the machine approaches 200ppm as nearly as I can figure.

[KurtV]

I think you've gotten sound advice from Marie (mbar) and Dave (duraliegh) on shocking your water because of the high overnight chlorine consumption you're experiencing, but I wouldn't overlook the cal-hypo as the possible cause of your cloudy water. Cal-hypo can cause cloudy water temporarily and because you've been adding it regularly, it could well be the culprit here (for the cloudy water only, not for the chlorine consumption). Try bleach as your chlorine source instead and see if the cloudiness problem is ameliorated or eliminated.

[duraleigh]

Hmmm. Good catch, Kurt....that's a good thought.

[Jakebear]

Dave --- last time I climbed into my washing machine, I “Got all shook up” so I don’t do that very often any more.:D

Thanks to all for the responses.

Just for grins we visited three pool stores today (See my post on CC testing) and believe it or not one of them mentioned the Cal Hypo and told us to turn off the pump over night to let it settle and then vacuum.

My free chlorine level only dropped .5ppm last night but was still cloudy this morning. We put 5 pounds of K-MPS in before we went to town. It was pretty clear after 5 hours of circulating while I was gone. I will probably shock tomorrow anyway --- bought bleach today.

[CarlD]

Yes, good catch Kurt. I hadn't been really following this thread but when I saw cloudy and cal-hypo and suggesting swimming at 20ppm...well, I had to look.

Quite frankly, I would NOT swim when keeping the pool at shock levels. If you look at Ben's writing, he's kind of iffy about it. What he's very CLEAR about is that higher levels of chlorine aren't an issue if they are the residual level for the CYA put you there--if your CYA is 120 and your FC is 12, go swimming. But at shock levels? I don't think that's what he meant.

I noticed the calcium level wasn't posted. I'll bet it's now through the roof. Each time you add a mass of Cal-hypo you may get clouding. If that IS the cause and NOT an excessive calcium level then a good dose of muriatic acid should clear it.

Meanwhile, switch to bleach/liquid chlorine instead.

[Jakebear]

Hi Carl and all

My results for last evening were:
pH 7.7 by titration
FC 7.5 ppm (FAS-DPD)
TC 7.5 ppm (FAS-DPD)
CC 0 ppm (FAS-DPD)
TA 90 ppm (by titration)
CH 280 ppm (by titration)
Phosphates <100 ppm
CYA = 60
ORP = 755

I have noticed the CH has risen from 240 – 280 in the last week but didn’t give it much thought since this forum kind of ignores CH in a vinyl pool.
The pool looks good this morning after letting the pump off for the first time in 10 in days. I did add some K-MPS yesterday which did its part to clear it up too.

Still have some Cal Hypo left but will probably leave it there for now.

Thanks for the opinion and your interpretation of Ben's intent of the CL/health issue. I read the entire China Shop series about three times but never found any real conclusion to the original question – BTW do you really have dust bunnies??:D

Also please see my other post on CC testing. I am really confused with that.

27000 inground vinyl DE filter