The Great Tetraborate Experiment!

[chem geek]

I sent an E-mail to Taylor Technologies about creating a drop-based test kit for borates (ppm Boron). They said that they have just introduced a kit for testing Boron, but it is designed for industrial water as one drop measures 0.2 or 0.5 ppm (similar to their FAS-DPD chlorine test). I don't see this on their website yet, but it could still be useful if one were to do a 10:1 dilution and use the 0.5 test (to get within 5 ppm). It sounds like the ProTeam strips (or the ones from LaMotte) are still the way to go since they are close enough for accuracy and very easy to use.

Richard

[waterbear]

It sounds like the ProTeam strips (or the ones from LaMotte) are still the way to go since they are close enough for accuracy and very easy to use.

Richard
I have been using the Aquacheck borate strips which I believe are identical to the Proteam strips. Have not been able to find the LaMotte strips for sale anywhere either locally or on the net. I have ordered the Aquacheck strips from here
http://www.diywatertesting.com/
Cheapest price I could find, free shipping, and I got my oder in 3 days!

[chem geek]

waterbear (Evan),

I ran through some numbers on my spreadsheet assuming certain levels in your salt pool with borates and low TA. If I put in a pH of 7.5, TA of 70, CYA of 75 (for your SWG), CH of 300, TDS of 3200 (or salt of about 3000), 50 ppm Borates (Boron), and a temp of 85F, then this gives me a carbonate alkalinity of only 39 and a calcite saturation index of -0.47 (pool-store Langelier is -0.39). Now I know we don't give much credence to these indices and problems aren't normally seen until around +/-0.7 or even +/-1.0, but even so, the exceptionally low carbonate alkalinity in your pool plus the high salt level make the water more corrosive.

I just wanted you to know this and to be on the lookout for any signs of such corrosion, namely any dissolving or pitting of plaster/gunite/grout. If you notice your calcium hardness increasing (or not decreasing as much as it normally does, if it decreases from backwashing), then that would be a sure sign of trouble.

Assuming your CYA is high for the SWG (at 75 ppm), then a TA of 100 (carbonate alkalinity 69 and relative outgas rate 6.0) shouldn't outgas that much carbon dioxide, though it would be at about double the rate of a TA of 70 (carbonate alkalinity 39 and relative outgas rate 2.9). A TA of 100 would bring the "index" to -0.22 while also increasing the CH to 500 would bring the index to -0.01.

Richard

[waterbear]

Richard,
I run a adjusted TA of about 70 ppm (which means I run a TA of about 90), pH of 7.6, salt about 3400 ppm, Cal around 220-250 ppm, and temp around 82 when the heater is on. See what those give. BTW, I have seen no corrosive action to the water. Try plugging those numbers in and see what you get.
Evan

[chem geek]

With the higher pH and TA, this increases the saturation index. The higher salt level and lower CH (235) decrease it somewhat. The net result I now get is -0.35 which is better than the -0.47 I was seeing before. The actual carbonate alkalinity is 57.0. If I remove the Borates and keep the measured TA the same, then I get a carbonate alkalinity of 64.4 so though the Borates do not have a large effect, they do have some effect on alkalinity and therefore any "adjustment" calculation.

I'm glad to hear that you resolved your rising pH issue by lowering the TA only to 90 instead of 70, especially with the high CYA levels needed for the SWG. That makes this "lower TA" recommendation more reasonable for people combating rising pH without having to adjust too much of the other parameters.

If you increased your CH to 300, the saturation index would be -0.21; increasing it to 400 would make the index -0.09. Of course, raising the pH by 0.1 raises the saturation index by the same amount and is another alternative. Since you're not seeing any problems, you could of course just keep things as they are. Raising the CH to 300 or 400 wouldn't be hard now that you've stabilized your pool with all its parameters tweaked the way you want them (i.e. borates, salt, CYA). Just FYI.

Richard

[waterbear]

Just a quick update to anyone interested.
I have not needed ANY acid in my pool for the past 3 months. pH has been steady at 7.6 and ALK at 80-90 ppm. (We has some rains so that might account for a need for less acid and I have had to top off the pool and my fill water has a TA of between 80-110 when I have tested it on various times so this might account for some of the stability but not all of it!)

[salinda]

Can we get an update on this? My acid demand this year has been atrocious. I go through 4 gallons every 2-3 weeks.

[mas985]

I just added 50 ppm to my pool a few weeks ago but I have not had a change in acid usage yet. I have four strikes against me when it comes to PH drift:

1) Plaster pool
2) SWG
3) High PH fill water > 8
4) High TA fill water > 220 ppm

I am not sure if the Borates are going to help my situation much but it is probably too soon to tell. I still have to get my TA down since it sits at about 110 ppm. After I do that I will report back if I see any changes.

EDIT: I actually have 4 issues

[waterbear]

My pool has been holding fairly steady at pH 7.6-7.7. My acid use is very low and I am running my SWG at about 8% output compared to the 15-20% I was running it at before the borates. I keep my TA at about 80-90 ppm before stabilizer adjustment.

[vgg659]

I will soon install a SWCG, and am very interested in this experiement.

To verify, my optimum target readings should be...
TA 80-90 ppm (before stabilizer correction)
TA 70 ppm (after stabilizer correction)
CH 220-250 ppm
Borates 50 ppm?

Correct? Am I missing something?

[waterbear]

I will soon install a SWCG, and am very interested in this experiement.

To verify, my optimum target readings should be...
TA 80-90 ppm (before stabilizer correction)
TA 70 ppm (after stabilizer correction)
CH 220-250 ppm
Borates 50 ppm?

Correct? Am I missing something?
Every pool is different and your calcium level is also important in where your TA is. Stabilizer correction will subtract between 20-30 ppm from your TA, depending on your CYA level so you want to have your TA between 80-110 uncorrected or between 60-80 corrected. (The borates also add a bit to your uncorrected TA.
Keep the pH at 7.6-7.7.
Borates between 30-50 ppm.
Calcuim should be slighly higher if you run the TA lower. If your TA is at the higher end then run the calcum arourn 220, if your TA is at the lower end then run the calcium higher (300 or so). If your calcium is higher because of your fill water or new plaster then you can get away with running your TA at the low end. (maybe as low as 70 uncorrected.)
I have not plugged these values into Richard's spreadsheet but from my experience with my customers pools they work! It's a pool, not a recipe for Angel Food Cake!:D

Every pool is different. Get the system up and running and get the borates and pH in range. See where your calcium is to get an idea of how low to go with your TA. If your calcuim is on the low end put your TA around 90-110 before stabilizer correcton and see how your acid usage is, then lower it about 10 ppm at a time and see if the pool becomes more stable. If your calcium is high (above 300 ppm) start your TA at about 80 uncorrected. I have found that if you add acid as soon as the pH hits 7.8 and bring it back to 7.6 you will have much less acid usage than if you let it rise higher. A vinyl or fiberglass pool is going to be much more pH stable than a plaster pool in any case.you will find a point where your pool seems to 'lock in' to a pH around 7.6 or 7.7 and stay there for a while. It will climb but not as fast.

[ccr-n-ia]

Does the borate affect ORP sensor readings? Sorry if this is an ignorant question (I'm ignorant!). I'm converting from BAQ (started yesterday). I wanna try everything, being an experimenter.

So (1) I want to finish converting from BAQ to CL;
(2) boost the borate;
(3) build a liquid CL dispenser that is controlled by a PC along with an ORP sensor

Thus the question.

[waterbear]

For what a peristaltic pump. controller, and orp and pH electrodes will cost why not just install a SWG?

[ccr-n-ia]

For what a peristaltic pump. controller, and orp and pH electrodes will cost why not just install a SWG?

Great question! I had every intention of doing so (would love to do so) but then I read that SWG is not recommended for AG pools due to the metal structures corroding due to salt buildup over time.

[waterbear]

Goldline Controls makes the AquaTrol SWGs specifically for AGPs! The pump plugs into the controller (straight plug and twist lock available) and they make cells that either fit into the return or are plumped inline with either flex or hard plumbing.

[ccr-n-ia]

Goldline Controls makes the AquaTrol SWGs specifically for AGPs! The pump plugs into the controller (straight plug and twist lock available) and they make cells that either fit into the return or are plumped inline with either flex or hard plumbing.

I want to be convinced. But is the Goldline Controls AquaTrol SWG OK for older above-ground pools with metal frames / walls? I understand that salt buildup over time can corrode the metal. I tried to google up their web site, but just found sales sites (impatient).

[waterbear]

www.goldlinecontrols.com
You can email them and ask. they have contact info on their website.

[ccr-n-ia]

www.goldlinecontrols.com
You can email them and ask. they have contact info on their website.

I tried it; the web site seems to be down.

[waterbear]

I was just on their website and it seems to be working fine. Here is their contact info page:
http://www.goldlinecontrols.com/Contact/Default.aspx

They are part of Hayward so they are a major company! I would try calling their support number and asking about the AquaTrol. You don't want to contact one of their distributors, you want to talk to them directly for your questions.

Edit: Here is their support webpage:
http://www.goldlinecontrols.com/Contact/Support.aspx

I just tried calling tech support and they are there!

[Ciscokid]

Hi ,
Today I started my quest to get my borates up to 50 ppm. I went to home depot to get some muriatic acid. The first thing I noticed is that it looks like water. I haven't purchased acid since last season. The acid I had from before was yellow in color. I looked at the ingredients and it has 14.5% acid. Unfortunatly I didn't have any left over acid jugs from last season to see if they lowered the percentage of acid. I know the acid I had before would almost knock you out if you caught a smell of it. This stuff doesn't do a thing. Has anyone else noticed any difference? I am in California Modesto area.
Chem Geek when you calcualted the amount of acid per box of borax what percentage was it for? Maybe this is the reason why I am having to add so much acid to my pool to get a change. If in fact the percentage has changed. Well off to add some borax and acid to the pool. cya

[waterbear]

They are selling acid that is weaker in strength now. Don't know if it's a safety issue or what but regular pool acid would be 20 Baume or 31% by weight. This stuff they are selling is about 10 Baume so it is half strenth. I've noticed the price is the same!

The borax calculations for acid are for 20 Baume or 31% Muriatic acid!

[chem geek]

Yes, my calculations (in the spreadsheet) are for Muriatic Acid that is 31.45% Hydrochloric Acid that has been a standard for a very long time.

[mas985]

Hi ,
Today I started my quest to get my borates up to 50 ppm. I went to home depot to get some muriatic acid. The first thing I noticed is that it looks like water. I haven't purchased acid since last season. The acid I had from before was yellow in color. I looked at the ingredients and it has 14.5% acid. Unfortunatly I didn't have any left over acid jugs from last season to see if they lowered the percentage of acid. I know the acid I had before would almost knock you out if you caught a smell of it. This stuff doesn't do a thing. Has anyone else noticed any difference? I am in California Modesto area.
Chem Geek when you calcualted the amount of acid per box of borax what percentage was it for? Maybe this is the reason why I am having to add so much acid to my pool to get a change. If in fact the percentage has changed. Well off to add some borax and acid to the pool. cya


I had the same problem. Lowe's still has the strong stuff but who knows for how long. The thing that burned me about HD was the price was the same as before but half the strength. Lowe's has the same price but 29%.

[cgc2]

$221.00 for the Boron Test Kit from Taylor KIT NUMBER: K-1541
Kinda pricey....looks like strips for me as I convert my pool

[ccr-n-ia]

An additional benefit to adding the borax is that it wiped out all of the water bugs in my pool.

[waterbear]

$221.00 for the Boron Test Kit from Taylor KIT NUMBER: K-1541
Kinda pricey....looks like strips for me as I convert my pool
NOT the test kit you want. It will only test up to 15 ppm boron.
Proteam has a similar titration test kit that is designed to test Supreme (their brand of borax for pools) that is about $70. Any pool store that is a Proteam dealer should be able to order it. I have not been able to find it online. I have ordered one from our Proteam ditributor at work (it's backordered until July 19) so when it comes in I will post how it works. I have also talked to tech support at LaMotte and they told me that their borate test strips have a better color differentiation than the AquaChek. I have not been able to find the LaMotte test strips anywhere yet since they are a relatively new product but I am trying to find them so I can check them out. Perhaps if enough people contact LaMotte about the unavailability of the strips they might get them more widely distributed.

The Proteam test strips are rebranded AquaCheks. I do not know what the Bioguard ones are but I suspect they are the same since both strips are used in the repective companies strip readers for their in store water testing and all the strip readers I am familiar with use AquaChek strips.

[leejp]

Here in the Northeast we always have to raise the ph because the rain is so acidic. Would I get the same benefits simply using Borax to raise the ph after each rainstorm over time?

[waterbear]

probbaly not since it will take about 97.5 lbs of borax (each box is 4.75 lbs so that is about 20.5 boxes) to raise your 26k gallon pool to 50 ppm borates if you are starting out with no borates in the water. You would also lose a little each time you backwash your DE filter. Using borax to raise pH will add a small amount of borates to the water but you will not get anywhere near the 30-50 ppm range that is required to see it's other benefits.
EDIT: you would also need just over 6 gallons of muriatic acid to neutralize the pH rise from the borax addition and create the boric acid/ borate buffer in the water.

[cgc2]

[QUOTE=waterbear;34007]I will continue running my pool with the ajusted alkalinity at 97 ppm and see how long the pH remains stable and if I can repeat the results before I lower the ajusted alk to around 80. then I will see how it goes with the lower alk. I intend to post my results weekly. So far I think the addition of borates is a good idea. It certainly is not an expensive experiment when done with 20 mule team. It has only cost me about $35 for the 6 boxes of borax, 2 gallons of acid, and borate test strips!


In process of converting a 29k pool now...figuring close to 20 - 23 boxes for a 50 ppm...I will start with 15, and work my way up from there. Test strips should be ready for my pickup on Monday.

So far, 10 boxes, 2.5 gallons acid in pool that had readings of ph 7.4, TA 80 (unadjusted..69 adjusted), ch 360, cya 40 and building up to 70ppm, Salt 3000ppm and may add another bag.

Water sparkles and is very clear...going to take a test dip.

[bizbad]

Waterbear I really dont know how you keep the borates high enough, every time I add Borax it rains and I need to add more. I have given up. I would be adding Borax twice a week and it would just take the place of the acid I have to add every two days. I am glad it seems to be working for some of you, but I have had no luck. I get to the 50 ppm and it rains and I am back down again. I think I will just keep adding acid and occasionally buy some polyquat 60. I think its an even trade.

[waterbear]

If you are draining water when it rains then the borate levels will go down, along with the rest of your water balance going 'off'. If you just let the water evaporate then the levels will go back to where they need to be. If your pool is overflowing from the rain then you will lose not just borates but also other levels in your pool will be off, CYA, Salt, chlorine, TA, CH, all of them! How are you testing your borates. Also realize that they just need to be between 30-50 ppm so if they are not exactly at 50 ppm then I would not worry too much about it. If you had a SWG you would be having exactly the same problem with your salt levels, btw. You would also have the same problem with CYA if you are using an unstabilized chlorine source and adding CYA to your target ppm so I don't really understand why you are having problems maintaining the borates.

[ccr-n-ia]

17K AG pool
pH = 7.6 (consistent for 6 weeks since adding borax)
TA = 140
BOR = 80 (oops)
CYA = 5 (low on purpose)
using 6% bleach with a peristaltic pump feed to maintain 3-5 ppm CL


Question - my TA is gradually floating upwards (started out at 120, now at 140 - I have a heater, so want to drop it a bit).

Anyway, I'm prepared to lower the TA (and pH) using muriatic acid, but want to know if the strategy for reducing TA is the same as posted elsewhere on this forum - use aeration?

[waterbear]

drop the pH to 7 nand aerate. Also, the test strips are hard to read above 30 ppm. Try doing a dilution 1 part pool water and 1 part distilled and testings and see what you get when you multiply the results by 2 then try 1 part pool water to 2 parts of distilled and multiply by three. If the dilutions confirm that your borates are high I wouldn't worry too much about it.