Experts, I Need Help w/ First Pool Purchase

[webfeet]

Hi, I really enjoy this forum. My first post and pool - so I am nervous. Actually, I accidentially deleted first post. So, here I go, again. Please advise and comment on this proposed pool job:
Hydra Brand 28,000 gal, 40'6" x 20'6", grecian style w/polymer walls, vinyl liner (20 mil)3'-8' deep, full 5ft concrete deck
1 hp Haywood Super Pump w/ 24" 300# sand filter, 2 skimmers, 2 returns, 8' steps (4 step) w/rail, ladder, 8' diving board,pool crete bottom, rock bed under liner w/tube (for water removal, if needed) safety cover, overflow line, 500 wt light. All for aprox. $26,000.00.
Can add SWG Aquarite for 2000.00 more. Offered us the Polaris 280 for $1400 extra, but I am thinking a Blue Diamond Robotic cleaner. I found a similar DIY kit online w/out robotic and SWG for about $8,000.00. We are not DIYers -when it comes to an inground pool. We have recieved the installed price from 2 recommended PC that will travel 75 miles to do this job. (PC's within $500.00 of each other)
Concerns: pump size/filter,returns/ water turn over w/ 1 1/2" pipes. Will this pump take too long to cycle the 28,000 gals ? What about a larger 2 speed pump? More money, more efficient? What filter to match? Safety cover is $2,000 of the $26,000, and both it and SWG looks like it could be DIY job on our level. Both PC's say I need 2 jets in steps to aid cleaning at $350.00. Thanks for your input and suggestions -will be making decision soon. What a great site!

[Simmons99]

I am not a vinyl pool expert - but I am in the process of builsing a pool. Other things you need to consider are:

References - those who have used the same company and you should try to get references provided by the building department (from permits) - not from the pool builder
Any company you are considering - that they install vinyl pools all the time (not just a few a year)
If you have neighbors that you will need to use their land for access - get a use agreement signed and also get pictures pre-pool installation of EVERYTHING


As far as the size of the pump - with a sand filter you can get a pump that is TOO large and it will actually force dirt through the sand (bad). I'm sure an equipment expert can help you determine how long it would take to turn the water over once. You want to turn the water over twice in a day. Also - I didn't see anything about solar or water features - those would impact the pump size as well.

Good luck!:)

[webfeet]

Thanks for the response and the pointers. I read one of your threads about some difficult neighbors, I think? So, I spoke with mine, but I don't think I will need to get on their property for installation :D. Still need help- any pump experts out there? Also, the returns -are 2 enough? Certainly don't want any problems later on. Will add jets to steps, if I really need them to keep them clean. Will add water slide later, and may add fountain, later, too.

By the way, I have a new thread with a new question. If you have time, please respond to it. I need all the help I can get :confused: . It deals with contract clauses. Again, thanks for the input.

[GTakacs]

I'm not familiar with vinyl pools, they are not popular around here. However I can tell you that both the Polaris and the SWG are way overpriced. You can get a Jandy SWG for $850 on-line and the Polaris 380 with booster pump is still under $800. I would pass on the safety cover also, I think a fence is a lot safer.

As for the builders, I would call several references and have a look at their pools. Ask about their post-purchase experience as well as their construction. Get references from several timeframes. Preferable some from 5-6+ years ago and some from last summer.

[jbhogfan]

First time poster here as well and I see that you're located in Arkansas as am I. I haven't seen many Arkies on the board (if any) so it's nice to see someone. I had a question regarding the gallons on your pool. Did that estimation come from the pool builder or was it specific to that particular vinyl pool? The reason I ask is that with the dimensions you have given, I'm coming up with about 34,000 gallons. Maybe I'm doing something wrong or maybe I've calculated my own wrong. I took the length x width x average depth x 7.5 (for the approximate # of gallons per cubic feet). This gave me 34,499 gallons. I posted the other day on another board regarding a similar question on piping and pump size as I hope to someday build a gunite/shotcrete pool with similar dimensions. That # of gallons jumped out at me since it was so different than what I was calculating. Vinyl pool and gunite pools may differ, though, in the way the volume is calculated. At any rate, just wanted to ask. Arkansas is apparently an unregulated state with pool builders so it definately pays to be informed. Keep us posted.

JBHogfan

[mas985]

Why are you going with the super pump? The Northstar has more GPM and uses the same electricity. Also, I think you could turnover your pool in 8 hrs with a 3/4 HP Northstar pump. You only need 60 GPM and for the 3/4 HP Northstar that is 55-60 feet of head which is more than your likely to have. So for 50 feet of head, which is more likely, the pump will produce 70 GPM for a turnover of < 7 hours.

Also, I would go with at least 2" pipe if possible as this will increase the flow for a given pump.

[webfeet]

Thanks Mark for your comments. The super pump was what the PC recommended. I was wondering about 2 speed pumps. Today I was offered a Pentair Challenger and 600# sand filter for a similar pool set up- 28,000 gal 40'6" x20'6" . I don't know if this is a 2-speed, but I don't think so. To be honest I dont know anything about pumps, head or pipe sizes, or filters. Thats why I have asked for help. How much better flow with 2" pipe that with 1 1/2" pipe? What type and size filter go together? My fear is that I will get the wrong size pump, filter, or piping and be stuck with it for several years. I was thinking that the right 2-speed pump, although more costly, would save electricity. Your thoughts and any suggestions about them? ( Is a super pump a 2 speed? a northstar) I don't care what hp, (just want a good pump) as long as I have water turnover often and can add slide and fountain later if I want to. I don't understand head and all that technical stuff. I need specific advice, and I will certainly talk to PC about the things that you suggest. Thanks again

[hoffmans]

Hello!
The pool you are looking at sounds like a pool we are looking at from http://www.nationalpoolwholesalers.com.
Are you buying your kit on line?

~Hoffmans

[Poconos]

Webfeet...love the name. Sounds like about the right pump size and I would go for a 2 speed. I know a lot more now than I did 9 years ago when I got my inherited pool redone. Can't knock the Hayward superpump...9 seasons now. One thing to consider, enclose the equipment in a poolhouse or something if you can. Keeps the sun and elements like rain off the equipment. Maybe that's why my stuff is lasting so long.
Al

[y0manda]

I too am not familiar with vinyl liner pools although your pool is probably 2x the size as my gunite pool. I have four (4) 2HP northstar pumps for my pool. with a spa spillover, which has 9 returns in spa and 4 in pool. I run my pump twice a day for 3 hrs and has a dedicated vac line. just One pump filters both spa and pool into my DE hayward filter. I get a nice whirlpool effect that all gets sucked into my skimmer when filters running. Can't be more happier with my set up. BTW the three other pumps are for water features. So for me bigger is better :)

[CarlD]

I'm with Poconos on this--get the SuperPump, but get the 2 speed. You'll LOVE a 2 speed.

I have the 1hp 2 speed Superpump with a 200# T210 filter and it's FINE. The 300# will work even better--no chance of over-pumping your filter.

The two speed is INCREDIBLY quiet in low--as Poconos-- he's seen /heard mine. So has Watermom, my fellow moderators.

[hoffmans]

CarlD- or Poconos-

Could you please explain why a 2speed pump is better than a one speed?
What are the advantages?
And what does head size mean?

Webfeet, not trying to highjack your thread, but we might in the same boat here, I don't know anything about pumps/head/speeds ect. either. And we are looking at getting a very similiar pool to yours.

Thanks
~Hoffmans

[webfeet]

Hi everyone and to the Hoffmans- don't worry. We are all trying to learn! I am not ordering a pool kit. We are not diyer's on project like this! However, we do intend to install a SWG ourselves and built our own waterfall. I want my pool water to turn over every 8 hours or so and I want an energy efficient pump. However, the size of the plumbing affects the flow. I believe that a larger horsepower pump with a high GPM ( gallons per minute) flow rate is only effective with the correct size plumbing lines. I understand that my builder uses 1 1 1/2 lines, and the GPM for these are about 44. So even if my pump will push 65 gpms, it can only do it through pipe that can handle it. I am going to talk to my builder about 2 inch lines. I have not found a 2 speed superpump, but I am still looking. Once I choose the correct pump and size pipe then I need to make sure that I have a filter that is over-sized a little. Good luck and keep us posted on pool progress. Thanks to everyone who continues to give input. Webfeet

[webfeet]

Moderators and experts- what do you think about the info on the page below?
http://www.poolplaza.com/two-speed-pumps.shtml

I tried to fix the link. If it still doesn't work, just go the home page (www.poolplaza.com) and you can choose the link directly below where it states Pumps-One Speed or Two Speed, What's the difference?

Is it correct? I also found the 2 speed super pump at this same site. Thanks, Webfeet

[CarlD]

There are two big advantages to 2-spd pumps.

1) They are INCREDIBLY quiet at low speed.

2) It will take 50% to 100% longer to turn over your water at low speed, but will burn 1/3 the electricity doing so.

A third advantage I have noticed is that my sand filter, even though it's sized correctly for full speed, STILL cleans the water better at low speed. I guess there's more time and less water pressure allowing the sand to catch more.

Sorry, but I can't do the feet of head calculations--others are better equipped to do that. Couldn't get your link to work, either. Hayward SuperPump is only one brand and model. There are others just as good, maybe even better, but I've been very happy with mine.

[mas985]

Moderators and experts- what do you think about the info on the page below?
http://www.poolplaza.com/two-speed-pumps.shtml

I tried to fix the link. If it still doesn't work, just go the home page (www.poolplaza.com) and you can choose the link directly below where it states Pumps-One Speed or Two Speed, What's the difference?

Is it correct? I also found the 2 speed super pump at this same site. Thanks, Webfeet

The poolplaza site is a good place to learn about pumps and hydraulics. From the diagram they have on that page you will notice that on low speed, The head is 1/4 and the GPM is about 1/2 of that on high speed (GPM is proportional to RPM) so your turnover is twice as long. Although it is true that the energy draw is about 1/3 of high speed, since you have to run it twice as long, the cost savings is really only about 33% (2/3). However, over the life of the pump, this is quite significant.

Since your pool has not been built yet, a head calc is somewhat difficult. You will need a detailed plumbing diagram with all of the bends. However, given that most pools are between 45-65 feet of head, this swag should get you close enough when determining turnover.

If you decide to go with 1 1/2" pipes, then make sure they run lines from each return, skimmer and main drain all the way to the pad. This will minimize the head loss and reduce the time for a turnover. In terms of head loss, here are a few rules of thumb:

2 - 1 1/2" pipes is about the same head loss as 1 - 2" pipe.
3 - 1 1/2" pipes is a little more head loss than 1 - 2 1/2 " pipe

An alternative but less attractive plumbing option is to go with a single 2" line for the returns and a single 2 1/2" line for the skimmers and main drain (split at the pool). Even better yet is to use 2" lines from each return, skimmer and drain back to the pad.

The plumbing design of a swimming pool has one the largest impacts on the life cost of the pool so it is very important to get it right.

[EDIT]

One more thing:

Although I am sure the Superpump is a great pump, I would encourage you to compare pump head curves between the pumps. For example, the 1 HP uprated Superpump has a 50 GPM at 50 feet of head while a 1 HP uprated Northstar has 70 GPM at the same head. This is an increase of 40% which means 40% less run time and 40% energy savings on top of that from the 2 speed, assuming the same current draw. Also, the Super II is not far behind the Northstar at 67 GPM for 50 feet of head. The Superpump is a medium head pump while the Northstar and Super II are high head pumps which is more appropriate for your pool.

[webfeet]

Thanks Carl and Mark and everyone else. I am leaning toward a 2 sp 1 1/2 hp- will make all the comparsions recommended by you guys. I want the 2" pipe, but the builder wants a minimum of $2000.00 to go from 1 1/2" to the 2" ( this does not include the upgraded pump and filter: $600-$700 more). The charge for the pipe seems way to high. Are 2" pipe and fittings that much more expensive? My pool will be a grecian style (8 sides) 40'6" x 20'6". I will have 2 skimmers, 2 returns and a cozy cover semicircle spa (built into the wall, but still uses the pool water). The spa has 6 jets.
One other thing, 2 returns do not seem like enough? Are they? Thanks Web

[Poconos]

The only question I can answer is the price of the pipe.....WOW. $2K? I'm guessing as I don't keep those detailed records but maybe $3 more per 10' going from 1.5 to 2" pipe? Yes, 2" PVC is a little more expensive then 1.5 but just a little unless you're going copper. There is a bigger percentage difference when you talk ball valves. Just go to a Home Depot and check the plumbing aisle.
Al

[mas985]

$2k is way too much. After checking HD, go over the prices with the builder and see if there is not some mistake.

Also, you say you are leaning toward a 1 1/2 HP pump. Is that an uprated or full rated pump?

I guess I missed the spa before but a 1 1/2 HP uprated pump may not be enough for the spa if you are using a single pump or are you going with a separate pump? Each jet should have about 15 GPM to provide enough action. That is 90 GPM and if you figure on 60 feet of head for the spa, a 1 1/2 HP full rated Super II pump would only provided 12 GPM at best. Modest jet action. Hopefully, the builder will be using at least 2" piping for the spa.

So if you are going with a single pump, a 2 HP full rated 2 speed may be a better option but you should go with at least 2" plumbing. Otherwise a two pump solution may be better so you can get a low HP for the pool (3/4 HP) and a higher HP for the spa jets.