White Cloudy Water - Twighlight Zone

[szampino]

My water had a white cloudy(hazy) color. I could see to the bottom but it wasn't clear. Just to put it in perspective, the 4th rung of the ladder closest to the bottom was harder to see then the first rung in the pool. Additionally, I have a fountain on my return that spashes into the pool. The bubbles from the splash linger longer then a bubble should and when I pop them with my finger I get a small little circular ring of white, sort of like a thin circular line of white residue.

Water Stats before dumping in 3gal of Bleach in a last ditch effort to clear the cloud!

Temp 80%
CYA - 50
TC - 5.1
FC - 4.2
CC - .9
PH - 7
TA - 107
Hardness - 127
I float a 3" Stabalized Chlorine tablet. (removed prior to adding the Bleach and wont put back in until I get this under control),
Use PoolMagnet to maintain Metals.

Pool - Intex above ground Blow-up Ring, 18' diameter x48" deep (round), Cartridge Filter

A little background -
Water source is a well (no filters). Battled Metals and got the water crystal clear for about 1 week (thanks to this site and some of the metals experts Vitaman C). I went on a business trip during some massive rain storms and came back to a white cloudy pool. Tried to clean-up using post(s) advise by raising the chlorine levels in the pool gradually to shock level to avoid metal reactions. Tried to add Clarifier-no reaction. I had the same cloudy water last year that no-one around me knew how to handle. I felt a lot more confident this year with the support from this site.

I used Super Sock-It in small quantities to raise to shock levels. I maintained shock levels for about 2 days, while keeping an eye on PH. No change at all to Cloudy water (no better, no worse).

I just dumped in 3 Gal of houshold bleach due to the CC readings and watched the pool almost magically get cloudier. (finally at least a reaction)

I'm hoping that someone out there has an idea. I am completely out of POP. If you would like more background please see the thread titled (iron Copper) in the metals area.

PS: I'm ordering my Bens Test kit today!

[bradjo]

...........snip....................
CYA - 50
TC - 5.1
FC - 4.2
CC - .9
PH - 7


Those chloramines indicate that you have an unfulfilled chlorine demand. You are at a good pH for chlorine so that's good news!

You need to follow Carl's post stickied at the top and start dousing your pool with Chlorine until your chlorine level remains the same overnight and your CC's have returned to 0.

Test 3 times a day as he says and keep dumping in bleach to keep your Chlorine at shock level according to Ben's best guess chart. Just keep up the bleach and the testing. Everytime you drop below the shock level you allow the critters to reproduce and get another toe hold taking longer to clear the issue. So first get that chlorine appetite fed. Then when your chlorine is holding overnight any secondary issues can be solved.
hth,
Jo

[szampino]

Thanks for the reply.

Question: How important is the Vaccum to waste? My pool doesn't quite accomodate that very well.

[szampino]

One additional Question: "the skeptic in me"

What are the chances that I have same exact problem as last year?

Consistant factor: Same water source, different Metal treatment (AA) along with PoolMagnet(usedLast year). Is it possible that I could be fighting the same thing? What are the chances it is not critter related?

Could the metals be doing this?

***I raise the question because if there is something strange in my well water it may have a larger impact then just cloudy pool water....like on my health considering its the same water I drink (thougth treated, Greensand,salts and a Neuturalizer.

Open to any thoughts.

[KurtV]

Is the "Super Sock It" calcium hypochlorite? Is so, that's probably a primary or contributing cause.

Insufficient (and maybe inconsistent) chlorination is the other likely cause.

I recommend you ditch the "Super Sock It and bring your chlorine to shock levels using bleach. I'd go to at least 15 ppm but probably 20 ppm for your CYA level based on the best guess table.

I also recommend that you not use any more clarifier; it won't do anything for cloudy water and one of Ben's basic tenets is that you shouldn't add anything to your water that you don't need. Likewise the chlorine tablets; your CYA level is about where you want it.

Finally, your test results look as if they're from a pool store. Do you have a test kit? You need something (other than test strips) that will allow you to test pH and chlorine daily. Many here recommend the 5-(or is it 6)way kit from Wal-Mart as a stop-gap until you can get Ben's kit (or a Taylor K2006 or other with an FAS-DPD chlorine test).

[szampino]

PoolStore it was.

where do I get the test kit. I've searched the site and can't find it. I did find it once from www.poolforum.com but coudn't access the site today. Everytime I click the link near pre-orders it gives me a bad page.

[KurtV]

The order page is: http://www.poolsolutions.com/cart/ps234.php, but as you said, there seems to be a problem there right now.

[szampino]

Thanks.

I thought I may have had the wrong page.

What about one of these kits? I'm considering the Taylor K-2006 FAS DPD

http://www.poolcenter.com/taylor_test_kits.htm

If Ben's site isn't up I'm going to have to do something.

The strips don't seem to be cutting it. I had a walmart 6way test strip and a 4way bioguard.

[KurtV]

The K2006 is very similar to Ben's kit. I think the main difference is that Ben has sized the reagent amounts better (you should run out of everything at about the same time). But, he uses the Taylor reagents so functionally they should be the same.

[bradjo]

I couldn't wait so I purchased the K-2006C that's the one you want if you can't get Bens yet and yes you need a good kit although my Aqua Chem ($12.00) performs as well as my K-2006C but my AC doesn't have the range of my 2006C. I use my AC daily and my Taylor twice weekly. Further other's on the forum haven't found their AquaChem's to be as accurate so I'd go with the Taylor if not Ben's.

Obviously chlorine can't remove large organic objects. If you have "things" on the floor of your pool then vacuuming to waste is good but any removal method will work.

Right now you need chlorine chlorine chlorine and kill that demand. Handle pools in a linear manner, kill the chlorine demand first. Your test results show you need more so give it more and don't be shy this can take awhile. Please read Carl's post stickied on top here.

As for your drinking water hopefully you don't swim in it. I don't suspect it has the nitrogen load a pool has. But if you have any concerns call your public health department and find sources for testing!
hth,
Jo

[szampino]

Losing faith!

It's been 4 days of bleaching. I was traveling and just ordered bens kit(express mail). I purchased 6way strips from Walmart along with a Drop kit from Walmart that tests for TA,PH,TotalAlk, TotalHard, CYA just to bridge the gap from recieving Ben's kit.

My readings as of today:

TA - Orange (off the charts)
PH - 7.2
TotAlk - between 120 - 140
Hardness - 210 - 230
CYA - 30 - 40
FC - Strip - Purple(off charts) (pegs at 10)


**Going to take a sample to the poolStore to get a Chlorine Breakdown.

As of now there hasn't been any change to the water clarity except, as soon as I added the Bleach, the pool got a lot more cloudier, and hasn't cleared up yet.

Dilemna - Had the same (before Bleaching) cloudy water last year and couldn't kick it. So even refilling doesn't give me confidence that it won't happen again. Last year I attributed it to the metals in my water an thought I had it licked with the help from this group. Now I'm not sure what it is that is giving me cloudy water. All the stats appear to be in order.

For anyone interested below is a quick overview of everthing I did up to now.

1. Filled pool from Well water
2. Took raw water sample to Pool Store for sampling expecting too see metals(none present). I know I have metals regardless of pool stores readings and based on last years exciting pool season.
3. Added some Pool Magnet (Sequestering agent) to the water to be on the safe side.
4. Started to float my Balanced Chlorinator tablet. After about a week of keeping my FC at about 1-2ppm, and having crystal clear water, I noticed the water was beginning to change to that Greenish Blue. I knew exactly what it was and joined the Metals & Stains forum.
5. Went to the store and bought Vitamin C Crystals (1lb) and added it to the pool. Water cleared up in about 24 hours crystal clear. Yeah! had my pool under control. I added a little more Sequestering Agent and everthing was beautiful. I was finally in control (thanks to the forum)
6. Went away for a week. We had tremondous storms during that period of time and when I came back my crystal clear water was white cloudy hazy. I could see to the bottom but it just wasn't crystally clear.
7. Determined and Confident that I owned the pool and it didn't own me, I decided that the cloudyness was due to the metals so I added about a 1/2 lb of Ascorbic Acid to the pool along with a maintenance dose of PoolMagnet.
8. Nothing happened, no change at all.
9. Advise from the forum was to raise my Chlorine to shock levels.
10. I used powdered Sock-it to raise the chlorine slowly to shock levels.
11. No Change at all
12. I was still floating my Balanced Chlorine Tablet.
13. More advice from the forum suggested I remove the puck, stop using Sock-it and switch to bleach. CYA level was high enough.
14. Immediately when I added the bleach the water got very cloudy and now I can't see the bottom of the pool nor the 2nd step down on the ladder which is about less then a foot down.
15. I have kept the bleach regiment at the pegged marks of my Teststrips for the past 4 days. Ben's kit on order.
16. All my other stats look to be in check to the best of my existing test kits ability.

after 4 days shouldn't I see a little improvement, I'll even take improvement back to the origninal cloudy before Bleaching.

I'm stumped, frustrated, angry and ready to add some lilly pads to my pool and turn it into a water decoration in the backyard and Join the town pool.

I'm on the edge, and could use either a hand or a push either would be appreciated!

[mbar]

szampino,
I think you are fighting algae, and you are never getting your chlorine high enough to kill it off completely - that if why when you first put in the bleach it turned more cloudy - it was probably killing off something in your water and the cloudiness is the dead stuff that has to be filtered out. With a cya of 50, you have to get your chlorine level up to at least 15ppms, and keep it there consistantly. I know that you are afraid of the metals, but with all the sequester you have in the water, you should be fine - even if you get a little staining, after the aglae is gone, you can lower your ph and add more sequestering agent and the stains should go away. There is a method that you can use till you get a kit that measures high chlorine here it is:

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
Here's the Jen-You-Whine CarlD Shot Glass Method!;)

1) Get a shot glass (like you use to mix drinks).
2) Get a gallon of steam distilled water--most mass-market drug chains stock it, and many supermarkets.
3) Mix one shot glass full of pool water with one shot glass full of the distilled in a clean container (like a Pyrex measuring cup).
4) Fill your test cell to the line with the mixture. Add your drops and take the reading.
5) Whatever you read, double it. If it says "3ppm", you have 6ppm. If it reads "5ppm", you have 10ppm.
6) If it's STILL seems like the chorine's too high to read, go to step seven....
7) Mix 1 shot of pool water with TWO shots of distilled water, and re-run the test using that.
8) Now TRIPLE your reading--if it reads "3", it's 9. If it reads "5", it's 15ppm.
9) Going beyond two shots of distilled to 1 shot of pool water is possible (3 shots, quadruple your reading) but you lose accuracy fast. Still if it's the best way of reading chlorine, then you have to do it.

CAVEAT: ONLY use this method to measure chlorine levels. Do not use it for the other tests you run, and do not use it with the FAS-DPD powder test--that goes to 50 to 100ppm of Free Chlorine anyway.

There you have it!
***************

Something is very risistant in your water, and you will have to maintain shock levels consistantly - by checking a couple of time a day and adding bleach to take you back to shock. I really feel that if you do this you will kill off whatever your bleach is fighting, and you will get a clear pool. Do not use anything but bleach in the water to raise your chlorine. Especially with any well water and metals, I think that bleach works the best. Plus you can add it in small doses, and keep the clorine where it needs to be at all times. Don't be afraid to get your bleach high - it really works. Keep your filter running 24/7. Take the chlorine up to at least 15pmms.

[duraleigh]

I have not followed this thread but it looks like you are struggling with well water.

Simplify your life....drain the pool (7k gallons) and truck in water. You will start with a known point, get rid of all the issues in your water, and be swimming 30 minutes after the truck pulls away.

Ben's test kit will help immeasurably with any future issues that crop up.

[mbar]

I have used well water since I got my pool 7 years ago. I have learned how to control stains, and keep my water crystal clear. It can be done - and sometimes you live where the water that is trucked in is just as bad.

[szampino]

OK,

I tried the 2/1 Pool-distilled Chlorine ratio and my Free Chlorine is at 15ppm. I'm going to bring it up to 20ppm. (going to run to the store and pick up more Bleach!

I'll keep trying a little longer.

Should I remove the fountain in the pool?

[KurtV]

Stick with it. Keep it at shock level and keep filtering and it will clear up.

You'll find it a lot easier when you get your test kit.

[szampino]

Just for those keeping score.

7/22/06-I've got my FC up to about 25. Checked it at 5pm and just now checked it at 10pm. The level has maintained.

[mbar]

Good, this will tell all - if the chlorine will stay, then all of the bad stuff is dead - then it will just have to filter out.

[szampino]

7/23/06 - 9:30am
FC - 15,

I'm raising it again

**no-change in pool water.

[mbar]

If it went down that much, then it is defineatly fighting something. You probably needed to get up to 25 to really get it under attack. Consistancy is the key!

[szampino]

OK, I'll go with that.

7/23/06 - 11:29, checked my FC to make sure I got the FC high enough. Rightnow, based on Dilution method (this time I used drops and mixed 3/1 distilledwater:PoolWater). I dumped in about .75 gal of Bleach at my last post and it rased it to about 20. Now I'll add another .75 Gal to get it up to 25.

[mbar]

I noticed that your calcium level and alkalinity level went up also, so you may be fighting two different battles here. Adding any cal-hypo after a stain treatment is not recommended. It may be that your calcium and alkalinity are contributing to the cloudiness. You may want to lower your ph and aerate your water as you shock your pool. Filtering will eventually take out the precipitated calcium, but that may be one reason that your water got cloudy after the chlorine was added. My experience is that the high chlorine levels will clear up your water no matter which one it is. Just have patience, I know it is easy for me to say - but I think this is going to clear up, and you should have clear water for the rest of the summer if you use bleach and keep it at the proper levels. I am rooting for you!!

[szampino]

ScoreKeepers Update:

7/23/06 - 1:09pm

Did water make up for TA, FC, PH, Hardness
FC - 25 (Dilution method)
TA - 140 (Water fountain has been on 24/7 Since last Saturday-8days)
PH - 7.2
Hardness - 210

No change in water clarity.

[ssweaser]

""How important is the Vaccum to waste? My pool doesn't quite accomodate that very well.""



You can vacuum to waste with that pool one of two ways. Using your pump, disconnect the return line where it connects outside the pool. Lay it on the ground and vacuum through the pump with the water going to the ground. I don't know if you have the new vacuum set up that goes through the skimmer, if so, just hook that up - disconnect your return hose and turn the pump on. Works great, but makes a mess.

If you don't have the new system, you can purchase a pool hose - don't get a cheap one as they break real easily. Go to Lowes and pay around $30 for a semi-decent one. You will need to measure your output port and the end of the hose and buy a rubber bushing to attach between the hose and your port nipple. You will also have to buy a vacuum head that fits the hose. Disconnect your input hose, turn on the pump and vacuum. ***Make sure you get all the air out of the hose or you'll be fiddling with the pump for days. I do this by turning on the pump and holding the hose near enough to it to pull the air through, then pull the hose back so the air rises to the surface in the water.

Another way you could do this is using the hose set up on the output nipple inside the pool. You could connect a hose using a rubber adaptor and then hang that hose outside the pool. The advantage of this is you can get the water that's draining to waste further away from your pool so you don't end up with a muddy mess right next to it.

I have found Vacuuming to waste to be the quickest - though maybe not the easiest - way to getting the pool cleared of dead algae, debris, and calcium fall out in these pools. You still have to keep your CL levels up, but it clears up much more quickly if you can get the stuff out of the pool.

Suz

Intex AG 18x48 Metal Pole pool 3rd year

[szampino]

Thanks for the Vac tip. I actually rigged it so I can vac from the skimmer. Never thought about disconnecting the other end. The challenge I'll have is if/when I do this I will need to put more water in from the well. This is obviously a little trick since I'm having such trouble now.

Q. Shouldn't I see the water clear first, then see whats sitting on the bottom of the pool? Right now I can't even see the bottom.

Scorecard:

7/23/06 11:20pm.

FC - 15.

Adding more bleach to bring it back up.

[gerri]

If it were me I'd go ahead and vac "blind" - whether you can see it or not, there's stuff down there. It will help your water clear to get it out.

When you add new water be sure to put in the sequestering agent (metal treatment) and you should be ok.

Good luck!

[szampino]

If I vac and refill I will need to bring my Chlorine down to 1 in order for the Sequestering agent to bind properly. Do you still think I should do this? Mbar - what are you thoughts on the vac/refill/sequester? Should I wait till my fight is over?

Scorecard:

7/24/06 - 8:08am
FC - 25 (looks like it held overnight)
No change in water clarity
filter is running 24/7

[mbar]

Do not bring your chlorine down to add the sequestering agent. Since you held the chlorine overnight, I would keep the chlorine up there for another day. After that if there is no improvement in the water clarity, I would use a clarifer, or floc. Let the water circulate for a while, then shut the filter off overnight. Then vacuum to waste. You can add the sequestering agent with the chlorine high.

[szampino]

Scorecard:

7/24/06 - 7:06pm.

I just checked my chlorine and it dramatically dropped.

FC - 12

**The clarity on my water has changed a bit. The water almost looks a little purple/lavender. It could be because of the Blue Blow Up ring on the top of the pool. It appears like I can see a litt further down in the water though, I can vaguely see an additional step in the water. Could this actually be working.

I'm going to bring the chlorine back up again.

[szampino]

Scorecard -

7/25/06-7:50am

FC - 25

**Water Clarity got a little worse, Water still has a purple haze. Could this be Jimmy? :-) (trying to keep a sense of humur).

I'm going to add the following clarifer. HTH Super Concentrated Clarifier, product does not contain alum.

[szampino]

Scorecard:

7/25/06
3pm - Shut Filter
6:30pm - I can actually see an additional step so something is going on.

Water is still a lavender purple. I would add a some pictures if I knew how

Would love to hear if anyone else ever had purple water.

[KurtV]

That's the first I've heard of purple but the fact that your clarity is improving is a good signal. I'll bet you'll reach point where there'll be a dramatic clearing in the next few days.

[szampino]

Scorecard:

7/25/06 - 8:00pm

The water is still purple, but I can actually make-out the pattern design on the bottom of the pool. I will update this post with a water make-up next post.

[szampino]

7/26/06 - 8:30am

I could see the bottom and the total water looked pretty clear. (wow) There was an off-white/brownish stubstance at the bottom of the pool. I vaccumed to waste and the water actually looks pretty good. Not crystal clear. There is still a purple hue to the water.

FC: - 12
ph: - 7.2

I added about 3 cups of Pool Magnet to the water. I am doing the scary part now, topping off from the well. Wish me luck.

Any suggestions on how not have a repeat of this?

[KurtV]

Keep the chlorine up at shock levels until it clears AND holds the free chlorine level overnight. If you stop too soon you'll end up right back where you started.

As for preventing a repeat performance, test the chlorine and pH daily and never let the chlorine drop below the Best Guess table minimum.

[szampino]

Scorecard:

7/26/06 5:36pm.

Pool water is clear, bottom of pool is a little dirty in some areas. I have topped off to fill line and dumped 1.5 gal. bleach in the pool. I tested about 2 hours later to make sure I get my chlorine level up to shock.

Here is my breakdown.

Chlorine - 12 (4x diluted)
PH - < 6.8 (lowest reading)
Alk - 110
Hardness - 160
CYA - <30 (lowest reading)

What should I do first?

[Watermom]

Get the ph up above 7.0 first. Any readings below that are acidic and can damage your pool.

[szampino]

Scorecard:
7/26/06 - 8:13pm

Poolwater is still clear. I'm trying to increase my PH but it doesn't seem to want to cooperate.

I've added 20oz of PH up and it hasn't budged.

I've just added another 12oz. Will check in about 1/2 hour - 45 minutes.

[szampino]

Scorecard:

7/26/06 - 10:24pm

PH was still low so I added another 16oz of PH up.

as of now,

PH is 7.2.
CL - 15 (according to Ben's best guess this should be adequate shock level)

[KurtV]

It sounds like you're in the homestretch. Keep it at shock level until it maintains the FC level overnight and then keep the FC between the Best Guess table min and max for your CYA level.

You probably already know this but regular old 20 Mule Team Borax is a much cheaper substitute for pH Up.

Congratulations on getting your water cleared up.

[szampino]

I can honestly say I could have never gotten this far if it wasn't from the constant support and help from this forum!

Thank you to everyone who helped me get to this point!

[gerri]

You're in the home stretch now! Woo-hoo! Keep that Chlorine up and you're home free. :D

[szampino]

Woke up,
got out of bed,
dragged a comb across my head
looked out the window
opened the screen,
Damn, my pool is now green!

I feel like I'm on a merrygoround!

The water was fine when I went to bed, My chlorine was a little low so I added more bleach to bring it to shock levels (was supposed to be the last day for this.)

We had rain storms last night and now my pool water is a crystal clear green.

WaterStats:
FC - 15 (should be adequate shock level based on best guess chart)
PH - 7.2
CYA - 10 - 20 (under 30 and my test kit only goes to 30)

This is the typical way it goes:

1. Fill pool (well)
2. Water is clear
3. It rains
4. Water turns green
5. I attribute the green water to metals, then I add some ascorbic acid
6. Water is crystal clear for a few days
7. Water clarity becomes hazy, white.
8. Raise the shock level
9. Water gets cloudier

ugh! Why did my pool turn green? its clear, just green. The only other element that is not mentioned in my thread is the fact that I do have a lot of trees around me.

Help please.

[mbar]

I am really stumped too. The only thing I can think of is that the filter you have is not strong enough to handle all that is going on with your water. Everytime something small changes, it seems that the filter can't handle it. You seem to have a lot of sequesterer in the water - but some of them add phospates, which is food for algae - I feel like I am reaching for straws here - I just don't know. I just got a new product called "metal magic" from proteam. It is supposed to change the metals into a salt crystal - which can then filter out or be vacuumed to waste. I haven't tried it yet, because I just got it - I also am not having any staining right now, but I have a friend who does, and Iwill try it on her pool. I will be away this week-end, so I won't have any results till next week. I am so sorry for your trouble - It is also getting expensive for you too, so I can understand the frustration. I am sorry that I can't give you any other advice that comes from experience - just ideas on what can be happening. I would just keep the filter running 24/7 and hope that the sequester that you have in there will eventually bond to the metals, and the chlorine will do it's job, and the green will clear.

[szampino]

Thanks. I appreciate your efforts and look forward to hearing your successes.

I'm going to take my next step, add the AA.

This time, perhaps, Since my CYA is lower, it will be easier to raise the FC to shock level quicker, which may deter the White Cloud.

Wish me luck. (The filter came with the pool so I'm hoping it was sized right) I know others with the same pool and they don't have these problems. The only difference is the water.

Since I had the purple hue, I did some Internet searches and came up with references to Manganese. Does anyone have any experience with this in their water?

[duraleigh]

This earlier post didn't garner much of a response but I'm gonna' stick it back in this thread just as food for thought. It would be a quick way to enjoy the rest of the swim season
Simplify your life....drain the pool (7k gallons) and truck in water. You will start with a known point, get rid of all the issues in your water, and be swimming 30 minutes after the truck pulls away.

Ben's test kit will help immeasurably with any future issues that crop up.

[mbar]

Dave has a good point. At this time, if you can find water that won't have the same issues as yours, then it may be much easier and cheaper to do this than to spend more on chemicals. The back of the metal magic bottle says it gets rid of mananese too. If you start with metal free water, if there is somewhere you can get it, then you will only have to deal with your fill water, which may be easier - It is up to you.

[szampino]

Thanks.

I was thinking about that post as I just added my AA.

Just for the record, as soon as I added it (1lb) the coloring improved immediately. **just to add insult to injury, I'm going away next week, to a Hotel Pool and a beach! So even if I am succesful I'm sure my return will be interesting.

I'm going to give it one more shot this weekend. If I can't get it undercontrol I'm going to plan B. Cart in the water.

My plan is to get rid of the staining, then bring my clorine level to shock quicker. I'm hoping that the reason that I had the clouding last time was becuase my CYA level required higher shock levels then I thought and this caused the White Cloud. (Whishful thinking?)

Q. Will AA do anything to my CYA. I ordered bens Kit as a rush last weekend but still havent received it and my current kit doesn't have any more drops to measure CYA. Any thoughts?

[duraleigh]

I don't believe the AA will have any affect on your CYA level. Actually, I would disregard CYA 'til you get the rest of your issues resolved and then adjust accordingly.

[szampino]

My concern for the CYA was to make sure that I know how High I need to bring my Chlorine level so I can try to avoid the 'White Cloud'

The water is actually starting to look pretty good. Vitamin C is some pretty cool stuff. I'm going to start drinking more OJ, perhaps with a little Vodka if this pool ever gets under control...

Thanks for your posts.