My neighbors do not believe me on Chlorine

[smallpooldad]

I need a a whole bunch of replys to convince my neigbour that the following is not true.

Their potential new pool person told them that if you pour chlorine into one spot it will only work on that area of the pool. That it will have no effect on the rest of the pool. They have a fast moving pool sweep that disturbs the water. BUT if you use pucks it broadcasts it over the entire pool, even if it got stuck at one end of the pool.

I informed them that it is better to pour chlorine around the edges after nightfall but now they are convinced by Mr. Pool that it will stay stuck by the walls and better to use pucks.

Assuming 2 pucks each in the floating pucks how many floating pucks would it take to maintain a pool at 6ppm in a 20,000 gal gunite pool if it lost 2 ppm per day? How much Cyanuric Acid in ppm would this add monthly?

I am trying to help them understand why liquid chlorine is better.

Mr. Pool also said he had never heard of Wal-Mart's Liquid Bleach and would have to INVESTIGATE it!

He further stated that one hardly ever has to add Baking Soda. Which I add every third day to the same water supply in my pool to raise it 15ppm.

The pool readings before and after I cleaned it out for them;

Cl = 0.5/6.0
pH= 7.4/7.4
Alk=40/100
Calcium=250/250
Cyanuric Acid 140/55

Please help so I can print out the replies to help them realize what is true and what is not.

[CToon]

Dear Neighbor ,

We are only trying to help you. The free advice you are getting is so much better . Bleach is nothing more than sodium hypochlorite at 6% . Liquid chlorine sold at pool stores is sodium hypochlorite at 12% . As you can see , the only difference is the strength and price.

As for the advice that using pucks is a better solution, I have to believe your pool guy is too lazy to use anything else. THe reason I say this is even if you /he didnt want to use bleach, there are other means of chlorinating a pool. He just wants to put some pucks in and walk away All to your detriment.
AS the pucks disolve and deposit more and more CYA into your pool , the problems will increase.

Please reconsider your decision. Read Poolsolutions.com and Poolforum.com
If after reading and hearing about bleach , baking soda ,and borax you still decide to take the pool guys advice , good luck .


ok smallpooldad ?

[smallpooldad]

Thank you for the reply.

Others please help.

Looking forward to more replies.

[joliecharlie]

as my husband asks me ever so sweetly "Did they ask for your help?"

Sometimes people don't want help they just ask questions that they are satisfied that they know the answers already. When your pool looks great and theirs looks bad, they might really want help. Right now it sounds like they just want to debate.

[sevver]

That is probably good advice, when you spend in one season what they spend in one week upkeep on there pool, only to have it exponentially spiral out of control, they will come to you for advice, that is when you give it to them, take control of them and advise them every step of the way to a full recovery. They will listen then.

[smallpooldad]

Well actually yes they did ask for help. Turning their pool from the brown/yellow metal stained 20,000 gallon sink hole to what now, after the ascorbic acid and algae control treatments over a period of three weeks of twice daily treatments by me, looks like a brand new 16 year old gunite pool.

Now they interviewed one pool person and because this is not my trade just my hobby they are convinced he has all the answers. To quote, "Who should know more you or he that does this every day for a living?"

[sevver]

Tell them you are the best that they will ever see and walk away. As long as your pool remains clear that thought will echo in there ears and get reinforced by your results. Eventually they will believe it. :)

[aquarium]

You can lead a horse to water...

[waste]

Buy them a pair of frogs or turtles and tell them that at least they can use their pool to propogate a species if they're going to go with the pool dude. ;) Why don't you just direct them here to see for themselves what, why and how it works? You should hold some credibility with them, so it won't be a major stretch for them. You can also tell them that I do do this for a living, so now there are 2 experts and I agree with you, the 'amature' that gave them back a 'brand new' pool. - contact me if you need to - Waste

[chem geek]

Using the numbers you provided, one 3" Tri-Chlor tablet will add 2.03 ppm of chlorine (FC) and 1.66 ppm of Cyanuric Acid (CYA) to the pool. If the pool lost 2 ppm per day, then you pretty much have to add about one puck every day and that means adding 1.66 ppm CYA per day on average. That's 50 ppm per month! Assuming that the chlorine is getting "used up" by breakdown from sunlight or oxidizing ammonia or organics, then each tablet causes a drop in pH of 0.11 and requires 13.1 ounces (weight) of Soda Ash (Sodium Carbonate) or 5.4 ounces (weight) of Caustic Soda (Sodium Hydroxide). I don't how much Borax would be required as I have not yet put that into my spreadsheet (found on the "Pool Water Chemistry forum in The China Shop forum, but beware -- it's not for the faint of heart).

Of course, some CYA is lost with splash-out (not with evaporation) and with backwashing the filter (assuming its sand or DE -- cartridge filters don't get backwashed).

But rather than just have theoretical calculations, let me tell you what happened to me when I first started with my pool 3 years ago. I was told by my pool shop to use Tri-Chlor tablets for the convenience (I was going to maintain the pool myself). I did this for one and a half seasons (about 7 months in a season) and found I could no longer maintain chlorine levels properly. My CYA had gone over 100 yet unlike your situation I was only losing chlorine at the rate of around 0.5 ppm per day (our pool has an electric pool cover which prevents a lot of loss). I was going through around one puck every 5 days in a 16,000 gallon pool. That's part of the reason I explored the chemistry of pool water and found out what all you guys on the poolforum already know -- too much CYA is a bad thing and liquid chlorine (bleach or otherwise) is simple, easy and inexpensive.

At any rate, the information about chlorine from different sources "sticking" or "staying" in one area of the pool is completely bogus. With decent circulation, the chlorine should spread around the pool fairly quickly, but to be safe you can always pour it around. The chlorine in the deep end will go through the floor drain and skimmer and come out in the shallow end where some jets are located. In fact, why don't you "prove" this to your friend by doing the following:


Test the free chlorine (FC) level at the shallow end.
Add a good chunk of liquid chlorine (or bleach) to the deep end of the pool (into the outward stream of a jet, if one is available).
Wait, say, one hour and remeasure the chlorine level in the shallow end of the pool.


I've never actually done this so be prepared to eat crow, but I suspect that at least half of the expected increase in chlorine level will be achieved in that hour. In fact, if you do this experiment, please report back to this forum so we can get some real-world experience on the circulation and dissipation of chlorine.

Richard

[gerri]

I have 2 friends that also had a hard time believing me about putting bleach in my pool and not buying pucks this year. I've converted one of them and he's happy. Now the other girl has a cloudy pool andis beginning to listen.

[gerri]

Also show you neighbors this:
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?p=26809#post26809

It will aid in his "investigation"

[smallpooldad]

Thank you one and all.

I am going to print this out and give it to them.

As I tell my wife please do not ask me a question unless you are prepared for the answer.

[hulla]

Just let them use the pucks. Who cares?

[bradjo]

Well actually yes they did ask for help. Turning their pool from the brown/yellow metal stained 20,000 gallon sink hole to what now, after the ascorbic acid and algae control treatments over a period of three weeks of twice daily treatments by me, looks like a brand new 16 year old gunite pool.

Now they interviewed one pool person and because this is not my trade just my hobby they are convinced he has all the answers. To quote, "Who should know more you or he that does this every day for a living?"

WHOA!!!!!! Wait just a minute, you are a glutton for punishment aren't you. You do all this for them for I assume FREE! (the labor hopefully NOT the chemicals) and after you PROVE to them your skill they act this disrespectfully!! And now you think that hearing from some nameless nobodies on a pool forum you think it will bolster your reputation. Ummmm RUN DO NOT WALK away from these ungrateful _______!

After what you did if they said that to me I'd have replied, "You know you are absolutely right. I am sure he knows more and I'll even buy you your first bucket of pucks."

Then when their pool was a stinking mess and they came to me howling I'd refer them back to pool boy !!!

Sheesh!
Jo
PS PLEASE SHOW them my post I BEG YOU!

[gonefishin]

I've run into this same situation with several of my hobbies. Most times people would rather have things happen for them, rather than actually understand why something is working for them.

I don't know what the answer is...but I've learned many times people would rather believe what they know is true, rather than admit their ignorance (or someone else's experience/knowledge on the subject).

Before my pool was installed I decided I wanted to educate myself on pool maintenance and pool water management. That's when I found this site. Within that time I have read nearly every thread here, some threads I had to revisit a multiple of times before I had a good understanding of the information. I also investigated the information at other sites as well...some of which also helped me...and some that were far too biased for me to trust anything that they had said or claim.

In the end...there have been very few people that I have recommended read this forum. Most of the people I know are perfectly happy thinking that their pool store chemicals are something special. When confronted with the possibility that chemicals may in fact simply be chemicals many get defensive. I just smile and start talking about how much fun it is splashing around in the pool.

The men seem to be the most stubborn. When people have come over to swim...my water is always so crystal clear. When they ask "how do I keep my water so clear", I usually ask them if they really want to know. Once I mention that bleach is liquid chlorine they explain that they use softswim, pucks, test strips, etc. So I start talking about something else.

I don't know what the answer is? I really wish everyone that I know who has a pool would become active members of this site. But of the few I've told...I'm certain none have looked here.

PoolSolutions Table of Contents (http://www.poolsolutions.com/sitemap.html)

g'day,
dan

[DavidD]

....and because this is not my trade just my hobby they are convinced he has all the answers. To quote, "Who should know more you or he that does this every day for a living?"

My experience has been those hobbyist/enthusiast are usually as if not more knowledgeable than those who do something because they have to eat.:) They are also much less likely to make recommendations based on their own financial return. And by the way, You also "do it " every day don't you? And one last point, you have obviously proven yourself to them and all he has proven is.........

Dave

[prh129]

You shouldn't have to prove anything - ask your neighbor why is it that the chlorine from bleach doesn't move around but the chlorine from pucks does. Does the chlorine from pucks have legs? Is it "smarter" chlorine? If (when) they cannot answer the question then it should be on them to find the answer from their pool guy. Your pool is proof enough to show that you know what you're doing. If they don't want to follow your advice, then it's their loss.

Peter

[chem geek]

I just put some "Party Blue" that I had into the pool to see how fast the diffusion would be. This is a dye that makes the water blue and it breaks down in a couple of days. I put it into the pool over the jet at the deep end and within a couple of minutes the deep end was pretty much filled in with blue. Then, the blue reached the bottom two drains as well as the skimmer and the blue dye started to come out of the shallow end jets. After five minutes, there was blue everywhere, though it was much darker in the deep end (even accounting for the greater depth).

After 15 minutes, it looked like the entire pool was filled with the dye and it has not changed in color since (after an hour), so the diffusion (at least of dye) seems pretty darn fast. Perhaps have your neighbors get some of this stuff to put into their pool -- the visual effect is pretty convincing!

Richard

[hulla]

Why go on a crusade educating your neighbors. Just smile and wave boys, smile and wave.

[azimmer1]

I just pour it into the pool but near the intake so it gets diluted and circulated quickly.

[KurtV]

Richard,
How much of the dye did you add?
k

By the way, I love the scientific perspective you bring to the forum.

[Ohm_Boy]

...if you pour chlorine into one spot it will only work on that area of the pool.

One would think that your neighbor could find out for himself with two glasses of water, a few drops of food coloring, and an aspirin...

You do realize that you are basically trying to teach a pig to sing, right?

[chem geek]

Richard,
How much of the dye did you add?
k

By the way, I love the scientific perspective you bring to the forum.
Thanks. I used the recommended amount on the GLB Party Blue bottle -- 1 ounce per 10,000 gallons, so around 1.5 ounces for my 16,000 gallon pool.

Someone else on this thread mentioned using food coloring and that would probably work just as well though I don't know if it's as concentrated as the Party Blue stuff (it's REALLY concentrated). Either way, I'm sure the chlorine will break the coloring down, but please, don't take my word for it. I don't want someone to get "stuck" with color in their pool because they used food coloring.

Richard

[KurtV]

Thanks Richard. I don't intend to color my pool, I was just curioius from a mixing of liquids perspective.

[Rangeball]

To quote, "Who should know more you or he that does this every day for a living?"

"you mean the guy who's trying to make a living selling you stuff or the guy who's taken the time to educate himself and has nothing to gain by helping you?"