Newbie: Bromine and Clorox Questions

[muttrox]

Any help is appreciated!

I have a 17K gallon outdoor pool with a vinyl lining. I have always used a bromine feeder, because the guy who I bought the house from before me did, and I'm new to pools. And I used Burnout 35 for shocking (29% Lithium Hypochlorite).

For a couple years that was fine. Then after reading at this site, I stopped using the Burnout and switched to Clorox. I somehow came up with an equivalence of 3 bags of Burnout equals 2 gallons of Clorox. I've been doing this for two years now. I've never noticed any real issues with the pool --despite the next paragraph, it has always been very swimmable.

Whenever I bring my water in to be tested, the bromine residual is very low (0 or 0.1 to a reference of 2-4). And I've had problems with the bromine feeder, it eithers empties remarkably fast, or nothing happens. Yesterday, the man at the store said it was because I wasn't using granulated shock anymore. I asked him to explain, and frankly did not understand the answer at all, I am very bad at chemistry. Something about oxidation and converting back and forth. I have read Tip 10 over and over, but still don't follow it. I did think to go back and look at my printouts of the water tests. Sure enough, although the bromine residual is very low, my CYA is anywhere between 30-60, and it has a reference number is zero. I figure this is because they have entered in the computer system that I am a bromine user, so they don't think to look at the CYA number.

I'm not sure what all my questions are, but they're something like:
* What are the implications of using a bromine feeder and Clorox together? Is that bad?
* What is going on chemically by using both bromine and Clorox?
* Are the people at the store honestly trying to explain what's going on, or are they trying to sell me high-priced chemicals?
* This board seems to favor using exclusively chlorine as the way to go. Is that true? Why? If so, I gather I just need to wait a few weeks to get all the bromine out of the pool to do the conversion?
* I don't quite get the difference between Clorox and CYA. They are different, right?

Much thanks to all!

[itstoohot]

I'm no expert at this but my understanding is that the bromine and chlorine in your pool are in a battle of the ages against each other. That may mean that the pool is not being properly sanitized (that's bad). I don't mean to scare you. Hopefully the experts will be along shortly to give you experienced answers.

[waterbear]

Chlorine is necessary to activate the bromine in the pool. Actally the bromine tabs and feeder are an unnecessary expense. You need to add sodium bromide to the pool to establish a 'bromine bank'. Then when you add the chorine the hypochlorous acid is immediately converted into hypobromous acid, your active sanitizer. The bromine tablets contain bromine AND chlorine with dimethylhydantion to stabilize them...From what I understand DMHD does cause some persistance of the bromine but might have some negative effects.

Funny thing about bromine. Tabs by themselves won't do the job. The bromine levels just don't stay. You still need to add the sodium bromide first and still need to shock with chlorine to activate it. When you use the tabs in the floater it's called the three step method (establish bromine bank, add tabs, shock to activate), with out the tabs it's called the two step method (establish bromine bank, shock to activate.. The two step method works just as well!

You can also shock with MPS (non chlorine shock). This also reactivates the bromine. Ozone also works well for this purpose.

I really don't like the term 'shock' when used with bromine. The reason you are adding chlorine is not the same as in a chlorine pool. You are actually creating the active sanitizer from the bromine ions in the water. Activation might be a better term.

To answer some of your questions....
* What are the implications of using a bromine feeder and Clorox together? Is that bad?
No, in fact it is necessary and chlorine bleach is my first choice for activating bromine....but you also need to put the sodium bromide in the water first....the tabs alone won't do the job!

* What is going on chemically by using both bromine and Clorox?
The chlorine (or MPS or ozone) is NECESSARY to convert the bromine ions in the water into hypobromous acid...the sanitizer.

* Are the people at the store honestly trying to explain what's going on, or are they trying to sell me high-priced chemicals?
They are trying to see you hgh priced chemicals (lithium hypochlorite has EXACTLY the same action on bromine as sodium hypochorite (bleach) but it is MUCH MORE EXPEN$IVE and if they didn't try and sell you sodium bromide they have NO IDEA how bromine sanitation works! TAB ALONE ARE NOT SUFFICIENT FOR BROMINE SANITATION!

* This board seems to favor using exclusively chlorine as the way to go. Is that true? Why? If so, I gather I just need to wait a few weeks to get all the bromine out of the pool to do the conversion?
If you have been using bromine tabs you will need to drain the pool and start over. The dimethylhydation used in the tabs keeps the bromine from being destroyed by chlorine and sunlight so you will alway have a bromine pool unless you drain! If this is an outdoor pool bromine is NOT the sanizer of choice for several reasons.

* I don't quite get the difference between Clorox and CYA. They are different, right?
Very different! Chlorox is sodium hypochlorite...same as the liquid chlorine the pool store sells but about half the strength. It is MY first choice for use with bromine.
CYA (cyanuric acid) is a chemical that keeps chlorine from burning off in the sun and has absolutely no use whatsoever in a bromine pool! It is only used in OUTDOOR chlorine pools.

[muttrox]

Two years later I'm following up on this thread. Thanks for the excellent reply waterbear!

Is "bromine residual" on a pool printout the same thing as sodium bromide? If not, how do I measure the sodium bromide to know if I have the right amount, and how do I know what the right amount is?

Thanks!