Need encouragement.

[ShelleyAnn]

I am beginning to wonder if we will be able to enjoy actually swimming in our pool or just shocking it continually until we close it in September.

After 3 or 4 days of solid rain I elevated the CL levels anticipating a problem I developed after a hail storm last month. Yesterday I added 288oz (2.25 gal) of chlorine to maintain what I thought was 15.5ppm. I've been using 15,000 gallons for volume per the web site of the place I bought it at, but saw this morning that Mikes calculator has it at 11,430 gallons for a 15 x 30 AG oval, so who knows how high I was actually shocking it. It went like this:

Monday 6pm shocked to 15ppm at sundown
8:20am - 15.5ppm
1:00pm - 12ppm added 104 oz
3:30pm - 13 added 80oz
6:21pm - 13.5 added 56oz
10:24pm - 14 added 48oz
7/12 8:00am - 16.5ppm ...thought my problems were over
3:00pm - 8.5ppm

It looks like my CL went up overnight, but that's probably because I was using the 15,000 gallons to calculate. I can smell the chlorine smell.

CYA 30-35 (I can see the dot better the lower I hold the tube I figured out today)
PH is usually 7.4 I have to add Borax all the time to keep it there.
ALK is 110
Vinyl liner
temp: 78 low in morning to 82 high in afternoon w/ solar panels
water is clear and sparkling. No one has been in the pool for 12 days. Clean baskets regularly. Backwashed 3" from rain Sunday.

Do you think being in Colorado at a mile high makes me burn more CL than everyone else? Is that even more a reason to raise my CYA?

I'm trying to avoid waking up to green water by shocking before I have a problem. I'm wondering if I should let it go green to see if I really do have a problem or am just imaginging it all. Help.

[DavidD]

ShellyAnn,

I'll try to help. If nothing else, I'll try to encourage you.


After 3 or 4 days of solid rain I elevated the CL levels anticipating a problem I developed after a hail storm last month.

What kind of problem did you develop? I'm assuming algae.


Yesterday I added 288oz (2.25 gal) of chlorine to maintain what I thought was 15.5ppm....

.......... I can smell the chlorine smell.

CYA 30-35 (I can see the dot better the lower I hold the tube I figured out today)
PH is usually 7.4 I have to add Borax all the time to keep it there.
ALK is 110
Vinyl liner
temp: 78 low in morning to 82 high in afternoon w/ solar panels
water is clear and sparkling......

How about CC. Are you registering anything above .5 ppm? If not, Other than the chlorine smell (Which could very well be off gassing since it is so high. Maybe Evan or someone can comment) I wouldn't worry. Seams to me, with a CYA level of 35 ppm you will loose a lot of chlorine in the day due to sunlight alone with the level being so high (shock levels). If I understand degradation correctly, it is a curve. Given a set CYA level, You will loose more the higher the FC then the amount lost will lessen as the FC gets lower since the CYA can only "bind" or protect only so much chlorine.You say the water is clear so I think this is yet another reason not to worry.:)


Do you think being in Colorado at a mile high makes me burn more CL than everyone else? Is that even more a reason to raise my CYA?

You are higher than most of the rest of us but No, not in my opinion. Now if it starts "raining fire in the sky..." then maybe. ;) I'd keep your FC between 3 and 5. That is what works for me. I bring it up to around 4 or 5 ppm at night and after a sunny day and some use it works it's way back down no lower than 2.5. My CYA is also around 35 ppm and the temp ranges from 82 to a whopping 87 on average.


I'm trying to avoid waking up to green water by shocking before I have a problem. I'm wondering if I should let it go green to see if I really do have a problem or am just imagining it all. Help.

Keep an eye on the CC, and you should be fine. Carl always says "Stay Ahead" but don't let it get you soo paranoid that you can't enjoy.;)

Dave

[duraleigh]

ShelleyAnn,

I am confused by your post and this earlier one:
I finally won. It took tons of bleach also. I was starting to think the way it was smelling was normal, and that I was crazy to think there was something wrong. Well, now on the other side of it, I know that a healthy pool does not smell like chloramines. I just can't believe how hard it was to fight something that wasn't green or cloudy! It would have probably been worse if I didn't respond to the smell. I think brushing and vacuuming was an important factor to finally clearing it up. What has changed?

I notice your Cl losses are during the day....not at night. Test in the evening and again the next morning....that'll tell you how much you're losing to the Sun.

Yes, I believe your altitude may well have an affect on Cl loss. The UV rays are certainly stronger at higher altitudes.

However, it's still not clear to me why you're not swimming....sorry to be so dense.

[ShelleyAnn]

David D - The problem is that after a hail storm last month I didn't shock and the pool developed that "that chlorine smell" and I ended up dumping in 15 gallons of bleach over 5 days till it held at 15ppm overnight. So this week after all the rain I was trying to avoid a problem. I have not heard of "gassing off" and would be thrilled to hear more. I have never registered a cc ever. Just the smell starts and I know something is different. I've also never heard of degradation, but it makes sense. At this point, I'm going to run with that answer as to why I'm loosing 8ppm in the day. Also, are you saying that people who wake up to algae always have some cc before it happens? I would LOVE a warning like that and then I could forget about the chloramine smell. I guess I've been reading too many posts about the green monster and am more nervous than a cat in a rocking chair factory about it happening to me.

Dave S - We had a ton of rain and I wanted to shock the pool before something took hold like last month. I'm wondering if I'm shocking so high, smell the chlorine "gassing off" and think it's chloramines! I will be thrilled if that is what I'm smelling. Part of my problem is that I test at 10:00pm, add chlorine per the calc, and go to bed. I don't stay up long enough to let it mix and then test again. It's 7:30 here now and the sun is still on the pool. I'm thinking it's in the sun for a full 12 hours a day. I'm not sure exactly what chlorine level I've been getting up to at night because I've always thought I had 15,000 gallons not 11,430. Dave, I would never EVER accuse you of being dense! We're not swimming because I'm trying to maintain 15.5ppm morning noon and night and my daughter likes to drink half the pool when she's in there.

Believe it or not, I think I am feeling hopeful. :) If cc is all I need to worry about, and if topping off the CL to 5 at night is all it takes, count me in on this pool thing. I just hope it starts to smell better as the CL level gets lower because my husband is real sensitive to it.

[medvampire]

Shelly
I do get the few hints of chlorine form my pool when it is in what I think is great shape. I have had to shock my pool twice this year so far and they were after 3 to 4 in rains because my combined chlorine went above 0.5 ppm. My pool sits under some large oak trees and bugs and other organics end up in the pool after big rains. If the pool looks good, combined chlorine less than 0.5 ppm, or you have a good reason I wouldn’t worry about shocking due to a few hints of chlorine smell.
I would think you would have greater chlorine loss due to uv at your altitude. If people have greater exposure to uv so will your pool.
I am not sure about out gassing being greater but it would depend on the chlorine being in a gaseous state. I know according to Henry’s Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry's_law) if chlorine were in a gaseous state it would out gas at a higher rate in Denver than in Miami due to atmospheric pressure. I am not sure about the amount if chlorine present in the water in a gaseous form. I agree with Dave might be smelling out gassed chlorine as well.

I do have few questions. How much Borax are you dumping in? What is the ph when you get the chlorine smell?

You have a good ALK so you should not see too much swing in ph and the bleach should cause the ph to rise. I also wonder if the low ph may cause more of the chlorine in the water to reach a gaseous form.
Steve

[CarlD]

Shelly,
I think you are getting good advice here. The excessive UV you are exposed to up there may make you an ideal candidate for running a high CYA pool. There are definite advantages to doing so, that, in your situation, probably outweigh the dis-advantages.

One of the moderators, aylad, runs a high CYA pool very happily since her location normally would also burn off a lot of chlorine.

So if your raise your CYA to the 60-90 level, you'll need to maintain a residual FC of 5 to 10ppm, and shock to 20ppm. On the other hand, once it's established there, you should find yourself maintaining the residual easier with less chlorine smell.

If you decide to do this, my general rec is that you do it slowly--raise CYA to 60 first (it will take a week) and see if you can hold your residual there. If not, go to 70, etc.

I hope Janet (aylad) will step in at this point because she can advise you better than I can.

[ShelleyAnn]

Thank you, thank you, thank you everyone for your posts.

Almost couldn't sleep with the anticipation of testing before the sun hit the pool this am. I just caught it at 7:15! It did not fall. If it did, it was .5 when last night I thought it might need 1/2 a drop of FAS-DPD #2 after all and added one more for a total of 13 drops. This morning was a solid 12 drops for 6ppm. No CC at all.

I add approximately 1/2-2/3c of Borax every 2-3 days to keep PH at 7.4. Yesterday morning I was at 7.7, for the first time ever because I was heavy on the Borax the day before (that's how I get mad at my pool I guess) This morning, it's down to 7.6 so I loose about .1 a day or so.

Regarding organics...I think I saw a leaf in the pool...once, but I dove in fully clothed to keep it from actually reaching the bottom of the pool...wouldn't want it to throw off the balance of the water or anything :)

Regarding CYA. I'm pretty sure mine has fallen fairly significantly. I started off adding 3lb to a new pool in April and it got to 30. After the hail storm I added another lb to get it up to 40 (hoping it would help in the long run) and I believe I did notice it got cloudier, maybe up to a full 40. Now I believe it's 25-30. I did drain 2-3" during the last storm, but I'm not thinking that's enough to cause this. Does high CL for long periods do this? I've only been working on the pool for 2.5 months, but I'm sure I remember a time where I only had to add 2 or 3 quarts of bleach every other day to get the ole OTO up to 3-6/5-10. Ahhh, those were the good old days.

Thank you all for your expertise and patience. It's helping for sure.

Shelley

[CarlD]

CYA does not break down or mysteriously leave, generally. You either have to dilute to get rid of it--if your CYA is 100, you have to dump 50% of your water to get it to 50--or take the "nuclear option"--which you don't want.

You have to let your pool turn into a swamp, full of algae, frogs, mosquitoes, etc. for a month or two, then clean it up. That will consume the CYA, but leaves you with a nasty mess, algae and lots of ammonia in the water. Definitely not worth it!

[duraleigh]

Shelly Ann,
Regarding organics...I think I saw a leaf in the pool...once, but I dove in fully clothed to keep it from actually reaching the bottom of the pool...wouldn't want it to throw off the balance of the water or anything Nice work! You cleverly avoided what could've been a major problem. As your experience grows, you will learn to leap from the side of the pool and snag 'em mid-air.....just can't be too careful, ya' know?:D

Serious note....your pool sounds to me like it needs someone swimming in it....not much else.:)

[aylad]

Shelly Ann,

It looks to me like you may be a candidate for a higher CYA pool, like CarlD suggested, because if I'm reading this thread correctly, you're still losing a good bit of Cl during the day but not during the night....

My pool is in full sun 12 hours a day also, so I run my CYA up to the 80-90 mark and run higher chlorine levels. Pool stays clear, and I only add bleach about twice a week. Even though the best guess chart recommends 5 minimum and 10 max, I tend to keep my Cl around the upper end of that--usually 8 or 9 ppm. By doing that, it takes 3-4 days before I drop down to 5 and need to up it again. Most people will tell you that it's too high, but in a pool that gets full sun all day every day, it's working well for me. If I were you, and if the chlorine loss is during the day but not at night, I would try bumping it up to around 50 and see what that does to your chlorine consumption. If it slows down, then bump it up about 10 ppm at a time until you get to a point that works for you.

Janet

[DavidD]

ShellyAnne,

Please don't get upset at what I'm about to say. I assure you I mean no ill intent (I always hate when people say this and usually get pissed off right away Hope you're a little more level headed than I:o ).

I think you are worrying entirely too much and may be trying to micro manage your pool. Remember it is supposed to be a point of enjoyment for you yet it sounds as if it is worrying you to death!. Let’s look at the facts.

Your pool is clear and looks great by your own account
Your chem.’s are in line.
You do not have any CC's.
Your chlorine seams to hold perfectly over night.
You do not have algae.


I really believe the chlorine you smell is probably amplified by the fact that you are keeping it at shock levels. It has to go somewhere so in the day UV uses it up and at night you probably loose some in evaporation hence the "smell". Yes, I have heard the general rule "If you smell it, you need more" however I believe that refers to a strong smell which is really subjective. I also firmly believe that a good test kit is far better to rely on than any human sense other than maybe sight. I am no expert (except in the eyes of my family and friends and that is onlybecause of this forum and every one here :cool: ) but these are my observations from afar. My advice would be to let the FC drop back down to the 3 to 5 ppm range, enjoy and if there is a problem, address it then. Meanwhile, jump in, have a good time and post some pictures of your "success story".
Stay ahead but don’t let it push you. ;)

Dave

[ShelleyAnn]

Everyone will be pleased to hear that not only I, but my neighbor and her 4 boys swam in the pool today! (cheering audible from here). There is a spring in my step and someone actually heard me laugh!

Dave - I totally agree with you...on all points. :) I am not angry in the least and only want to hug you.

Janet - I can't wait for the CYA I added this morning to dissolve and try it out :) The idea of testing once every morning and not 6 times a day and adding chlorine twice a week and not 6 times a day brings a smile to my face even now. Yeah, ok, I want to hug you too.

CL at 6:30pm: 3.5a drop of only 2.5 the entire day vs. 8 yesterday and Lord only knows what the day before I was adding it so fast.
CC: 0
CYA - Added 1.5lb this am
PH dropped a whopping .2 to 7.4 since this morning --just bought another box of borax--could this be from the CYA addition?

I believe, Dave, you are totally correct when you say CYA can only bind so much and at the high levels it just burns off rapidly. Ya gotta smell that happening right. At 3.5ppm I can't smell a thing. Duhhhhhhh.

Since turning over my new leaf of relaxing and enjoying the water:
1. What ppm should I bring it up to tonight?
2. When SHOULD I shock?
3. Are there always signs--measurable CCs before an algae bloom?

Bless you all. I feel great!

[DavidD]

1. What ppm should I bring it up to tonight?
I’d follow “Ben’s Best Guess” and bring it up to 5 ppm.


2. When SHOULD I shock?
You should only have to shock when you have a CC reading of .5 or more. Like Steve mentioned earlier, twice a year would not be unusual. I’ve yet to really shock my pool yet this year. Only once have I even had it above 8 or 9 and that was to burn off all the sunscreen after a busy day of fun in the sun. Since I also use a few pucks a month, my CYA is approaching 40 so I very well may have to shock soon with the heavy use and warm 86+ degree water. Maybe I’ll even use up some of the poly quat left over from last year.

3. Are there always signs--measurable CCs before an algae bloom?
I want to say “usually” however I honestly have never had algae so I really can’t say. Fortunately, I found this place while my pool was being built. I have helped friends with algae and they always have had 1 ppm of CC or more.
Happy swimming!

Dave