Why not use liquid chorine instead of bleach ?

[hancop]

Here in Canada we can get the purox liquid chlorine for about $1 per litre at Canadian Tire. Why would I use bleach instead of this ?

Thanks

[Simmons99]

Liquid chlorine is bleach. The only difference I am aware of is that the stuff labeled liquid chlorine comes in higher concentrations like 12.5%. Whether you purchase stuff labeled "liquid chlorine" or "bleach", make sure you know the concentration before you dump it in - so you don't fade a liner or over chlorinate.

[giroup01]

Here in Canada we can get the purox liquid chlorine for about $1 per litre at Canadian Tire. Why would I use bleach instead of this ?

Thanks Nice to see another Canadian here! We'll be driving from Quebec to Whitby this weekend to visit friends.

I just did the math on this yesterday in fact and came to the conclusion that the cost per ppm between Purox from Canadian Tire and Javex from IGA is the same, with cal hypo being a bit less expensive than bleach. And you have to buy twice as much from IGA because the bleach there is 5-6% and at Canadian Tire it's 10-12% . I'll find the numbers in My Big Pile o' Papers and post them for you.

Regards,

[hancop]

Interesting that you are coming to Whitby, as that is where I live. :)

[Kinguni]

Here in Canada we can get the purox liquid chlorine for about $1 per litre at Canadian Tire. Why would I use bleach instead of this ?

Thanks
Purox is around 10% and bleach is around 5%. If purox is around $1/l ($4.99 for a 5l bottle) and a 3.6l bottle of bleach at Wal-Mart is $1.17, the cost comparison is in favour of bleach by amost 50% if you do the math at $.325/l.

[hancop]

I just checked the specs on the purox. It says the following:

10.8% (w/w) sodium hypochlorite, or 10.8 grams sodium hypochlorite per 100 grams of bleach solution.

Then right under the above, it says the following:

12.0 % (w/v) available chlorine, or 12 grams of free chlorine per 100 ml of bleach solution.


Therefore since the container is 5L and 1000ml equals 1L, what is the % chlorine we should use for this container for our calculations ?

I also noticed that the PH is labeled as 12.8 minimum.

Thanks

[giroup01]

Interesting that you are coming to Whitby, as that is where I live. :)
It's a small planet. Do you know Nicole, George and Jeanine ? ;)

[hancop]

Sorry, don't know those people

[giroup01]

Here's the math, do correct me if I'm wrong. All prices in CDN$.

For cal hypo, I bought 25 kg of 70% cal hypo for $77.93, that's $0.0031/g, you need 29.5 grams for 1 ppm in 20000 liters so that's $0.09/ppm. (Source: Taylor Chemistry Guide from my K2005)

For the Canadian Tire Purox, it's $4.99 for 5 liters, that's $0.998/liter, you need 0.2 liters of the stuff for 1 ppm in 20000 liters (assume it's 10%) so that's $0.20/ppm. (Source: www.canadiantire.ca)

For the IGA Javex, it's $2.49 for 3.6 liters, that's $0.69/liter, you need 0.4 liters of the stuff for 1 ppm in 20000 liters (assume it's 5%) so that's $0.27/ppm. (Source: www.iga.net)

I think the math works out, let me know if it doesn't.:confused:

[Kinguni]

Expensive bleach! :eek: $1.17 for the same size of WalMart band.

I'm interested to see if your calculations for cal hypo are correct. It's a little beyond me.

[prh129]

One other point, in case you're not aware, is that the higher concentrations of bleach will break down faster so try to keep them away from heat & light & use them up first if you have both liquid chlorine and bleach.

Peter

[cleancloths]

Nobody, I repeat NOBODY uses liquid chlorine in a swimming pool. You might think you are, but you are using bleach. Some large commercial pools use chlorine gas, but never liquid. You are not equipped to deal with liquid chlorine. Believe me, I am a chemical engineer and used to work in a chlorine / caustic soda production facility. Liquid chlorine does not exist in nature, and the only way to get it is to compress and deep chill to liquefy it. It will only remain a liquid under pressure and low temperature. When exposed to normal pressures and temperatures it will quickly flash off to a greenish yellow gas. If you were hanging around liquid chlorine without a respirator you would most likely now be in a hospital with chemical pneumonia, unless you were already dead.

[giroup01]

Liquid chlorine does not exist in nature, and the only way to get it is to compress and deep chill to liquefy it. It will only remain a liquid under pressure and low temperature. When exposed to normal pressures and temperatures it will quickly flash off to a greenish yellow gas. If you were hanging around liquid chlorine without a respirator you would most likely now be in a hospital with chemical pneumonia, unless you were already dead. Yup, you're so right.

But then I always see people going for the trichlor instead of the cal hypo/bleach/whatever because it says "90% available chlorine" on the label. Good marketing eh?

[CarlD]

I'm not sure I know why you need chlorine in Canada...I thought nothing grows in water that's just above freezing...Man, that's cold!!!:eek:

[giroup01]

I'm not sure I know why you need chlorine in Canada...I thought nothing grows in water that's just above freezing...Man, that's cold!!!:eek:
I want to let you know that, contrary to what you and others may think, Canada is not a cold, freezing country. Just to prove my point, it's the middle of July and my pool water has reached its highest temperature so far this season, behold, it's a sizzling 72F. So there. And it may go even higher, it may reach 74F if we're lucky and the weather holds. Now that's hot my friend. So we may not need our polar-lined speedos this weekend. Heck I may even have to turn ON the AC in the car! So there.

;)

Best regards,

Paul

[brent.roberts]

The wild card in the cost equation of Canadain Tire chlorine or pool store "liquid chlorine" is that at 10 to 12% solutions, it is unstable and will relatively quickly degrade.

If the shipping and storage was not up to par, you may be getting only 7 or 8% by the time you stand at the edge of the pool and start pouring.

5 or 6% solutions, on the other hand are relatively stable and you should get pretty much everything you paid for, into the pool.

[aquarium]

The wild card in the cost equation of Canadain Tire chlorine or pool store "liquid chlorine" is that at 10 to 12% solutions, it is unstable and will relatively quickly degrade.

If the shipping and storage was not up to par, you may be getting only 7 or 8% by the time you stand at the edge of the pool and start pouring.

5 or 6% solutions, on the other hand are relatively stable and you should get pretty much everything you paid for, into the pool.

Not saying you're wrong, but this assertion is supported where?

[brent.roberts]

It has been frequently reported on this forum that the 12% stuff was unstable and I had a discussion with the manager of a local pool store manager and he readily admitted the degredation is a problem. He has 2 small ( 5000 litre ) tanks and gets weekly small deliveries so he can control his stock on a first-in first-out basic. Keeps it fresher than one 10,000 gallon tank where new stuff gets mixed with old stuff.

There is a chemical engineer type here who worked at a chlorine production facility and posted recently. I hope he sees this thread and can cite some more authoritative sources.

[cleancloths]

It has been frequently reported on this forum that the 12% stuff was unstable and I had a discussion with the manager of a local pool store manager and he readily admitted the degredation is a problem. He has 2 small ( 5000 litre ) tanks and gets weekly small deliveries so he can control his stock on a first-in first-out basic. Keeps it fresher than one 10,000 gallon tank where new stuff gets mixed with old stuff.

There is a chemical engineer type here who worked at a chlorine production facility and posted recently. I hope he sees this thread and can cite some more authoritative sources.


YUP, we at one time looked at making high strength bleach (this is back in the 1980's) and decided against it because of the degredation issues. You typically use a nickel or iron catalyst in the bleach production process and trace metals that remain in the bleach cause it to rapidly break down. So, you are best to stick with 6% or lower bleach - as you know that you will actually be getting what you pay for.

As far as the temps in Canada, Montreal can actually be hotter at times in the summer than NYC!

[giroup01]

You typically use a nickel or iron catalyst in the bleach production process and trace metals that remain in the bleach cause it to rapidly break down. So, you are best to stick with 6% or lower bleach - as you know that you will actually be getting what you pay for.

As far as the temps in Canada, Montreal can actually be hotter at times in the summer than NYC!
Yup that's exactly what I read somewhere, temperature, pH and metal content break it down to various degrees. Thanks for confirming that.

As for Montreal, yes, sometimes it does get quite hot here. I hope CarlD saw the humour in my last post, we don't really have fleece lined swimwear... yet!

[KurtV]

Here's a pretty readable paper on sodium hypochlorite production and use. On about the thrid page, paragraph 2.4, it explains the breakdown process. Bottom line, as you double the strength you quadruple the breakdown rate.

http://www.odysseymanufacturing.com/bleach_information.doc (http://www.odysseymanufacturing.com/bleach_information.doc)

[CarlD]

I want to let you know that, contrary to what you and others may think, Canada is not a cold, freezing country. Just to prove my point, it's the middle of July and my pool water has reached its highest temperature so far this season, behold, it's a sizzling 72F. So there. And it may go even higher, it may reach 74F if we're lucky and the weather holds. Now that's hot my friend. So we may not need our polar-lined speedos this weekend. Heck I may even have to turn ON the AC in the car! So there.

;)

Best regards,

Paul

72? 74? Ugh! That's COLD my friend! I'm too soft--I need a 3/4 wet suit. Water here is COOL at 85!

[chem geek]

According to Clifford White's Handbook of Chlorination, the half-life of 10% chlorine solution at 77 degrees (F) is 220 days which is not too bad. It is also my experience that if there is a decent turnover of chlorine bottles and they are kept out of the sun, then I tend to get properly concentrated chlorine from my local pool store. I get the expected increase in chlorine levels by adding an amount of chlorine based on the 10% level (the 10% is by weight of NaOCl while the 12% available chlorine is by weight of the HOCl you get by putting the chlorine in water).

[chem geek]

On my last post I was wrong about the 10%/12%. A 12.5% (by weight) solution of chlorine bleach (NaOCl) is actually considered to be 11.9% available chlorine because the standard is Cl2 gas at 100%. 12.5% * (70.906 g/mole Cl2) / (74.4 g/mole NaOCl) = 11.9%

[giroup01]

72? 74? Ugh! That's COLD my friend! I'm too soft--I need a 3/4 wet suit. Water here is COOL at 85! LOL!! I'll do anything to get that 85! Heck, put some up on eBay and I'll buy!

[Chad-WL]

Just an update for you...
The Canadian supply of Purox is manufactured once per year, just before the spring time, and then it's stored... So if you're buying bottles in the end of summer, they're a few months old..

It will still work great though, it just drops down in content.

My father works for Colgate so I've been lucky enough to be getting mine supplied by the employee store, when ever I run low they have to get a few cases brought in from the warehouse because they don't stock it.

Chad

[CarlD]

LOL!! I'll do anything to get that 85! Heck, put some up on eBay and I'll buy!

OK. I'll freeze it for you and pack it in dry ice so it'll ship easier!:D


(G'nite, Gracie!:rolleyes: )

[gonefishin]

I'm so happy...I finally found a good deal on bleach! :D


I just found out that we have a Water Treatment store near us that also sells a few pool supplies. They have underground tanks of chlorine that they sell to water treatment facilities. They say that there turn over is quite high (new fillings every month). They said that the strength of their chlorine coming in is 17% and that they keep all the tanks above 12%.

They have a $5.00 deposit (one time fee) for a 5.5gallon black container. The 5.5gallon refill is a little over $9.00.

The lady at the counter asked a few questions about the type of pool...how I test...How much stabilizer I had...and what type of chlorine I'm currently using. Once I told her I was using only regular bleach she seemed said..."oh, well you should be fine then".


I'm just so happy I found a nice deal on bleach. a bit over 9 bucks for a minimum of 12%...not bad :)
take care all
dan