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milynor
04-10-2006, 05:12 PM
Has anybody ever used the Nature 2 system? At some point every year I have developed a black algae problem which, as most know, is very tough to get rid of. I just bought a Dolphin robotic to hopefully help with some of the scrubbing chores, but thought that adding another defense might help. I have been using the grocery store method for my chemicals, and never have a problem keeping my water crystal clear. Just want to try and keep the black algae from returning!

PoolDoc
04-10-2006, 07:54 PM
It's YACSS -- Yet Another Copper / Silver System.

Moving this to the copper section.

PoolDoc

Lenny
04-10-2006, 08:32 PM
Our pool was installed last year and it included the Nature 2. I wish I'd have known better because I would have saved myself some money. Based on what I read on the old board I decided not to use it. The cartridge is still in the box.

There were some people who used the Nature 2 and noticed no difference when they stopped. Seemed to me it was all down side (possible metals in the pool) and no documented up side.

CarlD
04-10-2006, 10:05 PM
I keep saying: Look how much the Nature2 cartridges cost and you need a new one every season--they start at $90.

That easily buys a season's worth of bleach--plus you have to add bleach to chlorinate it anyway--even if it works as they say. You can usually buy 5 gallon carboys of 12% liquid chlorine for $12. $90 buys 7.5 carboys at that price, or 37.5 gallons. Since each gallon of 12% is the equal of 2 gallons of 6% (ultra bleach) that's 75 gallons. That's the equivalent of 86 gallons of regular bleach (5.25%). If you need that much in 3 months (June, July and August) you are doing something wrong. If you need more than that in a 5 month season, you are doing something wrong.

So when they say it saves you money it is pure, unadulturated swill...The simple arithmetic proves it. If, say, you save half your chlorine expense--that leaves $45 PLUS the $90 on the Nature2 Cart. How is $135 less than $90?

rmeden
04-11-2006, 01:11 AM
My builder also plumbed in a Nature 2, but my filter is new, sitting in the box.. (hmmmm wonder if I should sell it on ebay? Is there a shelf life? :) )

One person last year reported a bloom every time the Nature 2 would need to be replaced, so it had to be doing something. That's the only evidence I read that it works.

Personally, I think it's better to use less chemicals and avoid a bloom rather that keep putting metal in to keep it in check.

Robert

DavidD
04-11-2006, 09:46 AM
At some point every year I have developed a black algae problem....

I think an extra dose of 60% polywhatever would be a better defense than the Natures 2. When I built my pool, I threw away the $100 and installed one. Then I got wise, cut it out, and gave it away. Instead of looking for another solution, try to determine a pattern or time when you get the algae and maybe increase your testing and or FC. The dolphin should definately help also. Take Carls advice, Stay Ahead...

Lenny
04-11-2006, 12:13 PM
One person last year reported a bloom every time the Nature 2 would need to be replaced, so it had to be doing something. That's the only evidence I read that it works.

I wonder. The Nature2 is supposed to work by filtering water rather than by putting something into the water, right? So if algae enters the pool, how could a filter help to kill it or prevent it's growth?

Maybe there's something I don't understand about how it is "supposed" to work.

PoolDoc
04-11-2006, 04:02 PM
The Zodiac people have been pretty vague about its mode of action, and the claims have been rewritten to avoid saying much of anything. The product originated with a company called "Fountainhead Technologies", who made all sorts of unsubstantiated claims about hydroxyl radicals and metal catalysed reactions. When Zodiac bought the company, they dumped the bogus claims, increased the hype, and rewrote the literature to be legally vague.

I'm not sure if they really believe that the products work, or not. When I talked to their tech support people several years ago, I confirmed (with more than one person) that if you have *measurable* levels (200 ppb; 0.2 ppm) of Cu in your water, you need to cut back the Nature2. It's pretty well established that Cu levels below 200 ppb have little or no effect.

But, it is possible that the units work, sort of, on plaster pools!

The Nature2 units DO contain copper and silver. It is possible (based on my limited knowledge of chemistry) that the units release those metals, at such low levels and in such a form that they never produce measurable Cu levels, but yet DO coat the plaster at sufficient levels to be algaestatic.

I know that something like this is possible: I have often deliberately stained white plaster pools with a light blue-green copper stain, as an aid in algae control. It's a bit of a tricky process, but it works well if the plaster is in good enough shape to allow me to avoid blotchy coloration. I've never had a customer complain about, or even notice, the stains.

The Nature2 units might do something similar. But, if so, I doubt it would work at all on vinyl or fiberglass pools. And even if it does work, it's a fairly minor effect. It's value to me is mostly on constantly occupied commercial pools where there's no opportunity for me to spike chlorine levels to 25 ppm to kill off any mustard algae that's popping up in the cracks and crannies of the plaster. I also use polyquat for the same purpose, and it's more effective, but also more expensive.

But, in home pools, it's much easier to 'close' the pool for 2 - 3 days, while the chlorine's high -- or else to tell the kids to wear old suits while swiming for the next few days.

Another issue has to be considered as well. If the Nature2 units *do* work this way, you must be very careful when shocking your pool, or adding chlorine, not to let any chlorine compound (cal hypo, bleach, tabs, etc.) come into direct contact with the pool walls. The reason is, that if copper is present on those walls, the chlorine can convert from whatever form it's in, to black copper oxide stains that can be very difficult to remove.

So, in my opinion, even if the Nature2 units do provide some mild algistatic effects, they aren't worth the risk of trouble or the money.

Ben
PoolDoc

AnnaE
04-12-2006, 10:35 PM
I believe I have the Nature 2 filter because I remember paying $90 for a replacement filter last year. I bought my 24 feet above-ground pool in 2004 and replaced the filter in 2005. I am getting ready to open my pool, just bought Ben's kit and want to know if I don't use the Nature 2 filter, what do I replace it with? Do I even use a filter? Sorry, but I'm a newbie at this. Last year, I just replaced what they gave me from the pool store and bought the opening pool kit. What a waste! I still have all the chemicals. Any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

DavidD
04-12-2006, 10:49 PM
AnnaE,

I got rid of my Natures 2 by cutting the PVC pipes in half right in the center of the hole where the cartridge was mounted. Then I simply used a splice coupling to attach the two halves using PVC glue and primer. I believe there are a couple of different types so your base or mounting bracket may not be the same. I guess you could simply leave the existing cartridge in place and just not replace it.

Lenny
04-13-2006, 01:14 PM
I'm not going to use my Nature2 and I might remove the unit at some point, but for now I'm just letting it run without a filter. This won't hurt anything.

CarlD
04-14-2006, 07:03 AM
I keep adding up the costs vs. the benefits and I just see N2 as a waste of money and potentially a problem.

If you can run the unit without the cartridge without it leaking, then it should have no effect on the pool and you won't need to cut it out of the system.

But, as I've repeated, $90 per season for a cartridge buys a LOT of bleach!--not to mention it will buy 6 or more quarts of Polyquat--MORE than enough for a season!

AnnaE
04-14-2006, 09:54 AM
All,

Thank you for your suggestions. I don't think I'm brave enough to cut pvc pipes and such. I will just keep the old filter in (maybe rinse it out). Thanks again!

rmeden
04-15-2006, 09:08 AM
when you open the filter, there's a cartridge. Keep the filter in, just remove the cartridge... nothing to clean. That's what most of us do.

Heck, I've never even opened the Nature2 Unit... (1 year)

poolmama63
04-30-2006, 01:49 PM
This post is very much in favor of the Nature2 cartridge. We have used one for the past 5 seasons. Our pool stays crystal clear and I hardly ever have to shock (every 4-6 weeks). All I have to do is use 2 stingy sticks every 5 days. The main reason for wanting less chemicals is my skin. I have psoriasis and very dry skin. This has helped my skin tremendously. If you start reading about how harmful chlorine is to your skin and how it is absorbed in your body you might decide to take an alternatate route and use less. As long as we have a pool I will gladly spend 100.00 at the beginning of the season. Minimal maintenance and more pool time is wonderful.

Kim

waterbear
04-30-2006, 02:09 PM
This post is very much in favor of the Nature2 cartridge. We have used one for the past 5 seasons. Our pool stays crystal clear and I hardly ever have to shock (every 4-6 weeks). All I have to do is use 2 stingy sticks every 5 days. The main reason for wanting less chemicals is my skin. I have psoriasis and very dry skin. This has helped my skin tremendously. If you start reading about how harmful chlorine is to your skin and how it is absorbed in your body you might decide to take an alternatate route and use less. As long as we have a pool I will gladly spend 100.00 at the beginning of the season. Minimal maintenance and more pool time is wonderful.

Kim you might have less chlorine but you are subjecting yourself to both copper and silver so you are not really limiting yourself to exposure to chemicals! Both copper and silver can have negative health effects too. However, I work part time in a pool store and we regularly test for copper (LaMotte colorimeter that supposedly will read .01 ppm copper) and have several customers with Nature2 units. The copper test show no copper to about .03 ppm in the water which makes me wonder if the unit is really doing any thing. Biggest problem I have seen with these units is people let their FC levels drop well below the recommended .5 ppm and that means that the water does not have enough residual sanitizer and is not safe! Clear water is not necessisarily safe to swim in. I tested 3 Nature2 systems yesterday that had NO chlorine in their pools at all. IMHO, this is a bigger concern about whether the water is safe to swim in than how much the cartridge costs to replace or if it is effective. It seems (from my limited experience) to give a false sense of security about pool maintenance and very little margin for error.

poolmama63
04-30-2006, 03:31 PM
when our water is tested it always comes up with trace amounts of copper, making me think the nature2 is working. Anyway, personally I would prefer to deal with copper than itchy burning skin and red irritated eyes from chlorine.
All a personal choice I suppose.

Thanks,
Kim

waterbear
04-30-2006, 06:47 PM
the 'itchy burning skin and red irritated eyes" is NOT from a properly maintained chlorine pool. It is caused by chloramines in an improperly maintained pool. Thank you for reinforcing what I said about a false sense of security about pool maintenance in my previous post.

milynor
05-06-2006, 12:08 PM
Thanks for all the discussion! I do have a plaster pool so maybe it does help, but I think I'll hold off and see if just good maintenance and the dolphin does the trick! Thanks again!

AnnaE
05-17-2006, 07:41 PM
When I was at Leslie's Pool Supply last weekend, I checked the price of the Nature 2 filter. It was $105!!!! I paid $90 last year. I'm glad I'm done with that! :D

Anna

gonefishin
05-17-2006, 09:23 PM
Hi all :)

My pool kit was sold complete with a Nature2 system. Which, after reading this forum...I decided that I wasn't going to use it. So...I boxed it up and asked the pool store if they would accept a return. I ended up with a store credit for the nature2 system and cartridge.

:)

dan

njpool
05-18-2006, 02:25 PM
A newbie here who got an I/G vinyl pool with the house. It seems the consensus is not to use the Nature2. Assuming I go the B/B/B method, what is the biggest downside of using the Nature2 besides $$$? I've already installed a new cartridge for the season (before finding this site), so I'm kinda worried what negative effects using the Nature2 with B/B/B. The help pages on the main site recommended not using the B/B/B method if the Nature2 or similar system was being used. Would the biggest issue be staining from the copper/silver? Or possible health effects from the Cu/Ag?

CrisL
05-18-2006, 03:44 PM
The biggest downside to the Nature2 system is the $100 or so each season to replace the cartridge. It actually seems to add very little copper or silver to the pool water - which is a major reason many people are skeptical about its effectiveness.

joenj
05-19-2006, 09:09 AM
A newbie here who got an I/G vinyl pool with the house. It seems the consensus is not to use the Nature2. Assuming I go the B/B/B method, what is the biggest downside of using the Nature2 besides $$$? I've already installed a new cartridge for the season (before finding this site), so I'm kinda worried what negative effects using the Nature2 with B/B/B. The help pages on the main site recommended not using the B/B/B method if the Nature2 or similar system was being used. Would the biggest issue be staining from the copper/silver? Or possible health effects from the Cu/Ag?

Last two years I was using the Nature2(came with pool), and the 3Bs without any problems. This year the canister is empty and will be cut out when I close the pool. I also have an I/G vinyl.

PFlynn
05-22-2006, 10:15 AM
My pool builder installed it and touted it as a "chlorine subsitute". NOT!! I was told I still had to shock, and I had endless green algae problems. After two seasons I gave up and went to a chlorine regimen, added 'quat algaecide and brushed once a week and it ended the problem.

My conclusion is that N2 is a scam. It did not do anything other than lighten my wallet by $90-100 a year.
Pete

Pool_Mike
06-05-2006, 01:58 PM
Wow. Thanks for this post, b/c I was almost going to buy it along w/ Ozone. Thanks to some on here and the feedback. pool chlorine seems like the way to go

Crystal Clear Pools
06-07-2006, 11:38 AM
My 2 cents. I have a 36500 gallon pool with spa and waterfall. On the large size I'd say. I have salt water system, ozone a big DE filter and Nature 2. I run my filter 11 hours a day. My salt water generator keeps my chlorine at a nice 2-3 ppm. I keep my pool at a nice 85 degrees. I shock as necessary. Last year I tried not to use the nature 2 and bang I got alge. This year again I tried not to use it and bang alge again. Maybe for smaller pools its ok not to use it. But im a business guy and travel 4 days a week and dont have the time to hover over my pool. When i get home for the weekend I just want to swim and have fun. When I do use the nature 2 cylinder it allows me to turn my chlorine down to 1 ppm. I purchase my nature 2 filter at focus pools for 85 bucks. And its the big -45 unit. I've now been using nature 2 for 6 years and like it. Just my 2 cents.

hooch
06-07-2006, 01:23 PM
I have a Nature 2 that was installed with the pool 3 years ago. I still use it. I NEVER had an algae problem with my IG 18x36. My water is pretty much crystal clear all the time. HOWEVER, I do stay on top of my pool chemistry too and don't let the chlorine levels drop as low as they say you can. So I can't sit here and say that the Nature 2 is highly recommended cuz I just don't know. I did buy 2 cartridges last year on Ebay for $75 each...

gonefishin
06-07-2006, 08:51 PM
As mentioned earlier, I took my nature2 system that came with my pool to the store. They gave me a store credit that ended up paying for one Hayward filter and a float ring :)

couldn't be happier,
dan

CarlD
06-07-2006, 09:00 PM
Look, for those folks who are happy with their Nature2, all power to you.

But when you tell me you couldn't control algae without your N2, it tells me you are doing something wrong, because there is NO reason not to be able to prevent algae using B-B-B, Muriatic Acid, CYA, and proper testing to correctly balance your water chemistry.

I don't know what that "something wrong" is--it could be a lot of different things, but I know it's there and sooner or later I will find it. But it's probably maintaining too low an FC for the pool.

waterbear
06-07-2006, 10:13 PM
My 2 cents. I have a 36500 gallon pool with spa and waterfall. On the large size I'd say. I have salt water system, ozone a big DE filter and Nature 2. I run my filter 11 hours a day. My salt water generator keeps my chlorine at a nice 2-3 ppm. I keep my pool at a nice 85 degrees. I shock as necessary. Last year I tried not to use the nature 2 and bang I got alge. This year again I tried not to use it and bang alge again. Maybe for smaller pools its ok not to use it. But im a business guy and travel 4 days a week and dont have the time to hover over my pool. When i get home for the weekend I just want to swim and have fun. When I do use the nature 2 cylinder it allows me to turn my chlorine down to 1 ppm. I purchase my nature 2 filter at focus pools for 85 bucks. And its the big -45 unit. I've now been using nature 2 for 6 years and like it. Just my 2 cents. Hmmm, the ozone is destroying the chlorine your SWG is putting in the pool and making it work harder than without the ozone to maintain the same amount of chlorine. If you turned the ozone off you would probably generate 1 ppm chlorine with your SWG output turned down and therefore prolong the life of your cell. Also, the chlorine is destroying the ozone in your generator's reaction vessel requiring you to up the ozone output. IMHO, ozone really only has benefits in a bromine system where it actually reactives the bromine bank. It just works against chlorine. The SWG by itself is more than capable of making sure your pool is ok when you are away from home (with or without the N2).

sasha
06-17-2006, 08:18 AM
Why does ozone work against chlorine? I'm not sure I follow the logic, or the chemistry behind what you're saying.

As for Nature2, there seems to be a lot of people who are happy with the product. I think as long as that's the case I guess, it's a good product, at least to them.

sasha

waterbear
06-17-2006, 08:50 AM
Why does ozone work against chlorine? I'm not sure I follow the logic, or the chemistry behind what you're saying.

As for Nature2, there seems to be a lot of people who are happy with the product. I think as long as that's the case I guess, it's a good product, at least to them.

sasha The chemistry is a bit involved but they oxidize each other in a "fight to the death". If you dont believe me how about this info from the FAQ at OzoneLab instruments for starters

http://www.ozoneservices.com/faq/faq015.htm

The FAQ has quite a few intersting titbits about ozone and hydrogen peroxide in swimming pools and spas...bottom line is they no longer recommend ozone for pools and spas beecause of the problems in it's proper usuage and dosing!

As far as N2 goes, The people that are happy with their N2 most likely don't know that it is merely an erosion feeder for copper sulfate and silver nitrate and think they have a 'low chemical pool' because of the marketing hype. They are told that the pool is being sanitized naturally by "minerals". I guess you could call copper and silver minerals since they are mined from the ground (technically, their ores would be minerals!) but I don't think the copper sulfate and silver nitrate in a N2 cartridge are! Minerals is such a catchword in the industry. I had one product company Technical Rep tell me their metal remover product based on EDTA (a chlelating agent and the titrant for calcium hardness testing) would have no effect on calcium in a pool because calcium is not a metal, it's a mineral!. Last time I looked at a periodic table of the elements calcium was still a metal (in the same family as magnesium and strontium)!

sasha
06-17-2006, 09:50 AM
Yeah, I guess I see your point about the hype of the word "minerals". And you're probably right about Nature2 being an erosion feeder, but I think it says on the label that it contains metallic silver, not silver nitrate.

sasha

waterbear
06-17-2006, 07:51 PM
If you read the replacement cartridge it says that copper is from copper sulfate pentahydrate and silver is from silver nitrate right on the box!. We sell the N2's in the store that I work at and have read this info right off the N2 express replacement cart. box!

sasha
06-17-2006, 08:25 PM
Really? Then it's mislabeled...

http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/cgi-bin/label/label.pl?typ=pir&prodno=49492

waterbear
06-17-2006, 08:32 PM
I beleive the exact wording was something like "metallic silver from silver nitrate" I will double check when I go back to work on monday! Not really mislabeling becuase silver ions in the water ARE metallic silver! Doesn't matter if they come from silver nitrate or electrolysis in an ionizer. Once they are in the water they exist as silve ions. Same for copper!

Edit: Actually I just foung a PDF document here
http://www.kellysolutions.com/erenewals/documentsubmit/KellyData%5CND%5Cpesticide%5CProduct%20Label%5C677 12%5C67712%2D1%5C67712%2D1%5FNATURE2%5FEXPRESS%5F% 5F%5FFOR%5FABOVEGROUND%5FPOOLS%5F12%5F5%5F2005%5F1 1%5F49%5F35%5FAM%2Epdf
that has an image of the box....Here is a cut and paste from it! (Emphasis mine)

ACTIVE INGREDIENTS:
Metallic Silver**............................3.51%
Copper sulfate pentahydrate***....8.23%
INERT INGREDIENTS ..................88.26%
TOTAL........................................100.0 0%
**From Silver Nitrate
***Copper (Cu) as Metallic....................2.09%
EPA Reg. No. 67712-1
EPA Est. No. 67712-FL-001
KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN
CAUTION
See back panel for additional precautionary statements.
*The Nature2 System consists of the patented
Nature2 technology used in conjunction with
a chlorine delivery device or 0.5 ppm of an
EPA registered chlorine pool product.
† Nature2 technology consists of the
minerals silver and copper.
Nature2 water is
brilliantly clear and soft.
The
Mineral
Pool Sanitizer
The Low Chlorine Alternative*
Reduces chlorine use
to just 0.5 ppm*

bryjen
06-17-2006, 10:41 PM
Our pool opened at the end of last july,so we never put our n2 cart in. Being a BBB convert I never will. From an earlier post the n2 container is empty water passes right thru I see no need to remove it.

medvampire
06-20-2006, 04:48 AM
When I bought my pool this spring I got “pool stored” in to getting a N2 system and after looking through the paper work knew I got nailed. We have used colloidal silver as a disinfectant for instrumentation in a histology lab. I soon realized that the levels of silver in the N2 system were way to low to kill E.Coli and pseudomonas. We have also used silver in special “live” tissue preps at around the same levels I feel the N2 is delivering. I am not going to trust my family’s health to 0.5 ppm Cl and the N2.
I am not sure if the N2 works by metal delivery or by filtration. The “kill zone” may be in the filter itself and not dependant of metal delivery.
This fall when I pull my N2 cartage out I do intend to do some test by preparing several suspensions of different bacteria, prepping some homemade filters using the N2 contents, pass the suspensions thought the filters, and do colony counts. I wish I could get N2 to send me some of their filter material to test that has not been used and I am not going to waste $100 on a filter to rip apart.
As for EDTA it is a chelating agent against Ca. We use it in hematology to prevent coagulation of whole blood by chelating Ca and replacing it with K+. Ca is a metal.
As for the copper I am not sure about its levels as an algaecide but for it to combine with dihydrogenmonoxide (sorry couldn’t help myself) it would have to create an ionic bond and could possibly would lead copper toxicity. The level of ionized copper should be below 1 ppm in the body with most being bound to protein.
You have to be careful when dealing with these “healthy” mineral claims. It is a case of “When a little is good a lot must be better” mentality that gets peps in trouble. I have seen one case of copper toxicity at work and caused hemolytic anemia, liver degration, and renal problems.
The real question is if these things work? I really think that the best course of action is to listen to people running the board here and follow their advice. The chemistry is sound and their advice is wise.
Thanks again
Steve

waterbear
06-20-2006, 10:01 AM
N2 is not a filter, it is an erosion feeder. Their Express unit is attached by clamping onto an existing PVC pipe in your plumbing system so the water can circulate through the cart. and return to the pool. It just doen't put enough of anything into the pool. For copper itselt be be effecive as an algecidie it needs to be at concentrations close to 1 ppm in the water. I regularly test pools with N2 units and they show 0-.2 ppm copper. Not sure how much addtional protection is added by the silver since we don't test for that nor do I know what level it becomes effective. I just know that the kill times are very slow.

As far as EDTA, I finally got an answer back from this particular company from someome who actually knew some chemisty and was told that the reaction EDTA was pH dependant and that at normal pool pH it has a greater chelation ratio for copper and would chelate 16 ppm copper and only 1 ppm calcium so the impact on calcium levels would be minimal. This makes sense since the EDTA titration test for calcium hardness is carried out at a pH of 12 and the test for total hardness at a pH of 10.

medvampire
06-20-2006, 10:31 PM
If the N2 is an erosion feeder there is no way it could reach a level to be a effective bacteriostat. The required level is around 30 ppm and is most effective with H2O2. We have used in years past around 25 ppm (if my math is correct we used a %soultion) to stain Cryptosporidium with a kill time of around 120 minutes. Cryptosporidium is harder to kill but after looking around at 30 ppm in drinking systems at around 40 ppm in combo with 50 ppm H2O2 the kill time was around 900 minutes. With WB getting a 0.2 ppm of copper the erosion of silver would be around the same judging by the ionic states of each.
I can see where I will NOT be wasteing my hard earned $$$$ on a new N2 cart for next year. I will invest in one of Ben's kits.
The advice from the mods here is very good and wise. I wish I had found the site before getting "pool stored".
Thanks again for setting me straight waterbear. Had a great time this week end with the kiddies and 10 of their friends, water got a little fuzzy, and threw the bleach to it this morning and WOW it looks great this evening. Let the kids go in at a cl of 5 and didnt freak thinks to this forum.
EDIT
WB The EDTA we use as an anticoag has K2 or K3 added to counteract the copper by ionic excange in a buffered form to a PH of 7.10 to 7.25. Red cell lysis and defromation starts at around 7.0. The normal body ph is 7.35 to 7.45 with outside of 7.1 to 7.6 being incompatable with life. I have seen very few live with a ph below 7.0 or above 7.8 and if they do we have created a veggie.
Steve

sasha
06-21-2006, 06:53 PM
If the N2 is an erosion feeder there is no way it could reach a level to be a effective bacteriostat.

I think that's beside the point. The product is to be used with at least 0.5 ppm free chlorine, and that's clearly stated on the label.

IMO, not mentioning the explicit requirement for having a concurrent free chlorine level of at least 0.5 ppm is misrepresenting the product.

medvampire
06-22-2006, 01:46 AM
I guess I jumped into a hornets nest on this N2 subject. One last post and I bind and gag my fingers.
First of all let me say I am not worried about the copper due to the fact if you have an algae bloom I feel you have bigger problems with bacteria or viruses in your pool. Algae is a good sign you have problems.

Warning geek speak to follow.

Cl is a great sanitizer at levels given in Ben’s best guess chart but at levels of 0.5 it is quickly used up. It attacks by oxidizing the lipid molecules of the cell membrane as well as the membrane of bacteria, algae, parasites while denaturing the proteins in the coats of viruses.
Silver is a great sanitizer in conjunction with UV light and works buy preventing the unzipping of DNA. This prevents the replication of bacteria and viruses. In high concretions it also hinders the production of proteins but would be toxic to us at that level.
Now let’s put the two chem. together
Ag electrical state +1.93
Cl electrical state -3.16
Ag + Cl -à AgCl
In theory have just created a white insoluble granular material that is way to large to enter a cell to mess with the DNA and killed the oxidizing propties Cl but in a pool environment Ag in solution will be found in its bound and unbound state.
Ag + Cal ßà AgCl
Now mix the rest of the pool chem. Ca Na Mg Fe just to mention a few.
Ca electrical state 1
Fe electrical state -1.83
Na electrical state -0.93
Mg electrical state -1.31
You get the ideal. Ag is a very reactive with other elements causing a greater decrease of free silver in the system.
Now lets gander to silver kill times if we have enough free silver left in the system. Kill times are directionally proportionalto concretion of free silver and judging by the level of silver left in the system you are looking at well over ½ hour kill times. E.Cloi reproduces every 20 minutes so resistant strains become a good possibility. Resistant strains for silver that have been cultured include
Acinetobacter baumannii, E. coli, Enterobacter cloacae, Klebsiella pneumoniae, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Pseudomonas stutzeri, Citrobacter freundii, and Salmonella typhimurium
Trust me you do not want to get any of these bacteria much less a resistant one.

End of geek speak.

I am out of this one and might get my hand slapped by the mods for this but the N2 is not only expensive but potently dangerous due to bacteria resistance and will be pulling my cartridge and use just the puck feeder on the vessel when on vacation.
I deal with enough resistant bacteria and have seen the effects of MRSA here at work in the staff as well as the patents.
Later
Steve

sasha
06-22-2006, 07:02 AM
Odd that you say silver is a "great" sanitizer with UV light but discount its effectiveness with low levels of free chlorine. I think your only negative point is that such a low level of free chlorine would be rapidly depleted.

Silver, because of its lower reactivity, would not be depleted as free chlorine would. Silver would be persistently available unlike the free chlorine that is so reactive it gets used up. That might be just enough to get you through until more free chlorine comes on line providing those fast kill rates needed. In this sense, silver would be supplementing the disinfection properties of chlorine.

There's no measurement I'm aware of that would describe silver complexed in solution either as a AgCl precipitate, complex, or colloid that would totally discount its possible effectiveness. And of those other elements you list besides chloride, there's little reason to think those would be principle players in silver equilibria. I'd be more concerned about low levels of sulfide in the water reducing silver concentrations than a possible redox reaction between silver and some other trace metal ion. The solubility product constant of silver sulfide is several orders of magnitude lower than silver chloride.

Plus, who's to say the possible action of silver isn't simply suppression of formation of biofilms on surfaces that silver species have deposited on? Perhaps the formation and presence of these biofilms has more to do with the dynamics of bacterial counts in the water than has been traditionally assumed. There's a number of surface active silver products on the market.

I believe we tend to think in a simplistic model of disinfection where there needs to be a specific residual concentration of an agent to attain a specific kill rate for specific organisms. This is appropriate, but in the Nature 2 system, you should always have at least 0.5 ppm free chlorine anyways. This, for the most part, provides a sufficient kill rate and arguing about the slow kill rates of silver alone is a moot point. And when you point out that these other elemental species "decrease silver in the system", you're referring to a residual concentration that may be only part of silver's disinfection action.

I think silver is always in the system, in one form or another, whether in solution or on surfaces, and I would be hesitent to assume I understood the efficacy of all those forms without any data. I think there's some benefit, regardless of the mechanism, but at what cost?

The principle issue becomes one of cost and value to the customer, and as such, Nature 2 is a very poor choice for consumers. Of the active agents Nature 2 apparently provides (silver and copper sulfate), the amounts are worth a very small fraction of the product cost of almost $100. That's enough to convince me to never buy the product.

But whether it's Nature 2 or other products such as simplyblue etc., your gripe shouldn't be with the companies or salesmen trying to make a living. It should be with your Federal and state agencies who have a responsibility in protecting consumers from ineffective products related to public health. Writing a few letters to positioned people in those agencies would be a more valuable and effective exercise than banning people from forums such as this who promote those products.

CarlD
06-22-2006, 07:10 AM
Steve:
Some comments---
First: Chorine levels of .5 can be effective at keeping a clean pool clean, but nobody will claim it will clean up a dirty pool. (except maybe N2)

Second: .5 is ONLY effective with no CYA in the water. The Best Guess table is an empirical table showing effective maintenance and shock levels of chlorine for various CYA levels. So it's really irrelevant in the real world to discuss .5 chlorine levels. Most people who follow pool store rules are d*** lucky not to get algae when using pucks and keeping FC that low. Actually, many of them get algae, and finally come here for help. I'm inferring that your point is that N2 is leading people down the garden path to serious water troubles. I agree with that.

Third: I know that silver can be an algaecide, but that doesn't make it a sanitizer. There's a difference. I'm guessing that at levels where it can actually sanitize (kill microbes) is definitely not safe for human swimming.

Fourth: I, too, argue that simple arithmetic tells you that the N2 isn't worth the money. Now the seasonal cartridge is over $100. That buys a HECKUVA lot of chlorine--and you need to buy chlorine with the N2 anyway. I'd bet $100 that 999 out of a 1000 pool owners don't save that $100 in reduced chlorine usage.

Fifth: N2 uses that bromine and bacquacil producers' myth that chlorine is irritating and lots of people are sensitive to it. We know that's not true--properly maintained water doesn't irritate most people, and the few it does have explicit medical issues.

medvampire
06-22-2006, 08:45 AM
I have no gripe with any one, the orginal spirit of the thread was asking if it worked. We use silver on wound preps here at work and it works. I have do have references of the sources of bacterialcide of but none on alagecide. If I offeneded any one I give my most humble apologies but I was doing the research for my self due to I got "pool stored" and posted my results and conclusions. Waterbear had already proved from the copper side that the concretions were too low to be much use as a copper algaecide so I was looking at the silver. I feel kinda stupid after for letting my self get "pool stored" on this one. After 12 years in a medical lab I should have known better.
Sorry if I ticked any one off
Steve

CarlD
06-22-2006, 01:47 PM
Well, you certainly didn't tick ME off!

I HATE when our members get "Pool-stored"...They feel foolish and they shouldn't (unless they were warned and didn't listen). They've been conned by a con that's SO well practiced that the pool store clerks don't even realize they are doing it. It's all voo-doo and it doesn't need to be.

sasha
06-22-2006, 03:00 PM
Me neither. I think we're pretty much in agreement here, from various perspectives. My use of "your gripe" was directed towards anyone complaining about ineffective pool products being pushed on consumers.

DavidD
06-22-2006, 05:28 PM
Let me start off by saying no one has ticked me off, except maybe the companies such as Nature's 2. I was once (and only once thanks to Ben) a Nature's 2 patron. Here is MY problem with everything that has been said here as well as in the Natures 2 product manuals and web advertising.
In my opinion, the .5 residual of chlorine that is recommended would be used up faster than it could be replenished in a residential pool full of kids, swimming lets say from morning to afternoon. Then the average consumer would be relying only on the chlorine in the plumbing and the Nature's 2 cartridge itself to "sanitize". Ever got a toy in the skimmer? Granted some also have a main drain however I would venture to say that most people only have one form of intake. As Steve mentioned, forget about the algae. What about the "stuff" that chewed off the .5 residual in the first place. The average consumer probably wouldn't even notice the chlorine had dissipated until later that evening and by then, it could be too late. Now, throw into my little scenario that this average consumer has a CYA level of 90+ppm.:eek:

Dave

waterbear
06-22-2006, 08:31 PM
I think the most compelling evidence is that Austrailia does not allow copper/silver systems in swimming pools without STANDARD FC levels!
(The second url below is MOST informative!)

http://www.apvma.gov.au/qa/poolspa_Q&A.shtml

http://www.apvma.gov.au/qa/poolspa_FAQ_May2005.shtml

http://www.apvma.gov.au/qa/poolspa_FAQ_May2005.shtml

There goes the N2 Spa recipe that uses only MPS!

I only wish our own EPA was as diligent!