Can find cause of all the dirt/sand in the pool

[nicole12]

18' round AG pool, 150lb sand filter, 1.5hp filter...Astral Pool filter/pump came as a set. Also use about 3/4 c. of DE in sand filter.

Had the pool for 4 years now.

I've been having this problem all season. Everyday I vacuum the pool and then every morning I wake up to dirt/sand in every crevice/low spot in the liner.

I can't seem to find what is causing this. Pool filter or nature.

First I can rule out filter sand, what is at the bottom of the pool is so fine when you touch it with your finger you can't even feel it. I had a problem with filter sand last year and know this isn't it.

I put some panty hose of the return to see if anything was coming out. I did notice when I vacuumed there was be a little bit of sand/debris in the panty hose, probably less than 1/8 of a teaspoon. I had the panty hose on for about 4 days and did notice the pool was alot cleaner but there was nothing in the panty hose so I took it off yesterday and later that night all the fine dirt at the bottom of the pool.

Last time I vacuumed I did use the skimmer sock to stop the fine silt from getting into the filter and also had the panty hose on the return. Today I did not have that when I vacuumed.

Also yesterday I mowed the lawn and the pool does sit at the lowest point of the yard so not sure if it's just a coincidence or not.

I guess what I'm leaning towards is that when I vacuum for some reason what I vacuum just tends to go right through the filter back into the pool. Does this make sense and if so is the only way to fix it is to reduce the h.p on my pump?

I put the panty hose back on the return and I guess I will leave it there until the dirt/sand reappears in the pool so I can rule out the filter/pump.

It's just tough because there are so many variables that could lead me to one conclusion and not what the real problem could be.

I'm just really discouraged/frustrated at this point.

[Tredge]

Same here. I also ruled out the filter sand the same as you did.

The stuff is so fine that when disturbed it disappears for a while till the pool settles out again.

At first I thought it was metals precipitating out of the water from when I first filled it....a magnet doesnt help....but maybe its copper, or gold!

I also thought maybe it was from the yard but it doesnt accumulate daily...seems to be the same once settled as when it first appeared.

Even my dolphin cant filter it out...it just tosses it around and the next day its back.

So I guess we're both stuck with it unless someone has a better Idea of how to get this stuff out of the pool.

[tribe_fan]

The only thing I can think of is vac to waste. If you don't have that on your filter I've thrown the hose over the side of the pool and used the vac to siphon the fine sand out.

I swear I used to get more fine sand problems when using granular chlorine.

Not having enough sand in the filter is a possibility too - make sure it is approx 2/3 full.

[hrsdennis]

It sounds to me like you are describing algae. This will blow through the filter and settle back onto the floor of the pool. Vacuum to waist will get it out of the pool but you will also need to treat the water for algae to keep it gone for good.

Best of luck, Dennis

[Wayne LaBanca]

Not a pro on this but, isn't a 1.5 HP pump a bit powerfull for a 150 LB filter? Maybe too much force to allow the sand to trap the finer particles.

Post some numbers so we can see how you are looking on the CL side of things. The post above mentions algae so some numbers would help to rule this in or out.

Wayne

[matt4x4]

Sounds like dust stirred up by lawnmowing, happens at our house all the time.
When you cut your lawn, old, dead cuttings pretty much pulverize into a fine dust, this dust will immediately cling to the surface and eventually sink to the bottom, currents in the pool will naturally fill in crevices with it.
The problem with the fine dust is that it will push trhough pretty much any sand filter unless you reduce the flow to almost nothing.
Try 1-1.5 cups DE right before vacuuming, vacuum VERY SLOWLY, too much speed and all you do is stir the stuff up, and mix it back into the surrounding water.
I don't know about where you are located, but where we are it has been EXTREMELY dry which certainly isn't helping the dust situation any.

[denanbob]

We've noticed the same thing. We bought a used AGP and just got it all up and running yesterday. We put 4lbs. of DE into the skimmer slowly and about 2 hours later, DH vacuumed the pool and said he noticed the dust/silt/whatever and just thought it was DE. Later in the evening, our water looked super clear but if you stood beside the pool and looked down into it, you could see a ton of spots where there was a whitish/gray substance just settling where the wrinkles in the bottom were. I thought we had minimal wrinkles, but now I can clearly see there are alot!! I'll have him vacuum again tonight when he gets home hoping to get this stuff out of there! We have a 1hp pump and a Star DE-50 filter.

[NWMNMom]

Here is what I finally discovered after blaming my teenagers for a couple of weeks for dragging sand/gravel in where I find it near the ladder and along the sides on the pool floor - ITS THE FARM CAT. He is jumping up on the rail and leaning in to drink from the pool (ick!) We have a security cam we use for backing up the 5th wheel/boat - I rigged it to watch the pool and it took less than 36 hrs to see Toby crawl up the ladder and walk the rail. We have water for him and Koi ponds he could drink from, but apparently this is his drink of choice and he does not wipe his feet first!

Do you have a cat or are there any in the neighborhood?

[nicole12]

I have DE in the sand filter. I had replaced the sand this season, last year had a sand leak in the filter that I fixed in the off season. I did notice that the first time I backwashed some sand came out, just guessing but probably around 5 lbs. Not sure if that would make a difference.

It's not algae here are my numbers.

FC 12
CC 0
TA 100
PH 7.4
CYA 100

It really could be linked to the mowing. We've had a ton of rain here in Mass. this past couple of months and we need to cut the grass every 3 days. I'm going to vacuum today with the skimmer sock and panty hose on the return and see what I can get out.

I'm just worried about vacuuming to waste...won't that empty out alot of my pool? It's only 7500 gallons so it's a matter of minutes before I lose an inch.

We have 2 big dogs...if there are any cats in the area...we don't see them :-)

[day1]

I have the same problem, but I know my problems come from the street behind our house. It's a low area where a creek runs just behind our yard and then crosses under street. All the drainage from rain/wind puts dirt/sand in that low spot, then cars fly by @ 30 to 40 mph and that throws it up in the air where it comes down in the pool. I know because I put a white filter sand in the pool and this is dirt brown. Next house will have IG pool w/o road behind it!
I bet yours is blowing into pool also, since the DE should filter it.

[matt4x4]

Denanbob, sounds like your DE filter is broken, grey can only mean DE getting back into pool, see how it goes over the next week, if it clears up then it just needed to set in the filter.

Nicole, for the first while, your sand is relatively loose since you reworked the equipment over the winter and it needs to pack down, so getting some sand while backwashing is normal, it may be too full, so that could explain 5 lbs loss on backwash...
When filtering, the sand should not get back into the pool, but since it's new sand, the really fine stuff (sand dust) is probably washing through and into the pool.
With a layer (1-2cups) of DE, it will eventually filter out, but will take a while, you could also direct your jet to create a whirlpool effect in the water and the sand should mostly collect in the middle in an area of about 10 sq ft - vacuum that heavily concentrated portion to waste, and continue to filter afterwards, after about 3 days of this, you'll have most of it gone without much water loss.

[nicole12]

I thought about that with the new sand possibly having small sand particles/dust in it that had to work it's way out. I had posted that and someone on the forum told me that wasn't the case because the sand had been prewashed/filtered. I know that I physically saw some fine sand/dust when putting the sand into the filter.

Hopefully some frequent vacuuming will get rid of it.

[matt4x4]

Yes, it's true that pool sand is prewashed, doesn't get shipped on a pillow though, it still get slammed onto skids, stacked 10 feet high, thrown around umpteen times until you get it, so I highly doubt it will consist of perfectly sized and shaped sand particles, i believe it will have fine dust in it again by the time it makes it into your filter.

Give it a couple of weeks tops, try to vac to waste (but only the big portions) and all should be well soon.

[poolrx]

Sounds like dust stirred up by lawnmowing, happens at our house all the time.
When you cut your lawn, old, dead cuttings pretty much pulverize into a fine dust, this dust will immediately cling to the surface and eventually sink to the bottom, currents in the pool will naturally fill in crevices with it.
The problem with the fine dust is that it will push trhough pretty much any sand filter unless you reduce the flow to almost nothing.
Try 1-1.5 cups DE right before vacuuming, vacuum VERY SLOWLY, too much speed and all you do is stir the stuff up, and mix it back into the surrounding water.
I don't know about where you are located, but where we are it has been EXTREMELY dry which certainly isn't helping the dust situation any.

Same problem here with the mowing. I did notice that if I mow the day after it rains I get significantly less dirt in the pool from the ground being wet and the dust not blowing around as much. We have had a lot of rain recently and it is amazing how much "stuff" ends up in the pool from just the rain and wind.

[poolrx]

We've noticed the same thing. We bought a used AGP and just got it all up and running yesterday. We put 4lbs. of DE into the skimmer slowly and about 2 hours later, DH vacuumed the pool and said he noticed the dust/silt/whatever and just thought it was DE. Later in the evening, our water looked super clear but if you stood beside the pool and looked down into it, you could see a ton of spots where there was a whitish/gray substance just settling where the wrinkles in the bottom were. I thought we had minimal wrinkles, but now I can clearly see there are alot!! I'll have him vacuum again tonight when he gets home hoping to get this stuff out of there! We have a 1hp pump and a Star DE-50 filter.

Denanbob. Are you using calcium hypoclorite to clorinate or shock by chance? I have a DE filter and thought the same as you. When I switched to bleach, no more grey "stuff" on the bottom of the pool!

[denanbob]

That is good to know EXCEPT I just bought a huge box of 36 packs of "shock" (which ARE cal hypo). And since I already used one, I'm sure I can't take the box back. Maybe some poor unsuspecting soul who doesn't know about the BBB method would buy them from me? LOL!!! Thanks for the info poolrx :o

[Tredge]

I used Calcium Hypo when I opened the pool....came in a large bucket from Farm fleet......the stuff showed up shortly after I used it....hasnt increased since I stopped....

Could it be a contaminate?

[poolrx]

That is good to know EXCEPT I just bought a huge box of 36 packs of "shock" (which ARE cal hypo). And since I already used one, I'm sure I can't take the box back. Maybe some poor unsuspecting soul who doesn't know about the BBB method would buy them from me? LOL!!! Thanks for the info poolrx :o

It's funny, my buddy uses ca hypo all the time with no ill effects. I guess it depends on the water. I still have 11 bags of shock myself:mad:

[geordie]

We get brown dust in our pool. It is very very fine, will suspend in the water if stirred up, even by vacuuming. It is worse in dry years, and this one sure is dry out here. We are out in farm country in a very small town surrounded by corn fields. The sand filter will catch some of it, depending on how patient I want to be about backwashing and vacuuming frequently. I've found that the best way to deal with it is to give it a basic vacuuming, turn the filter on high and have the kids jump in and swim and splash like crazy. Then I leave the filter running all night long. The next morning most of it is gone. If the rains don't come, it appears a little more each day.

By the way, it IS a bit slimey to the touch but it absolutely is not algae, it is just dust from the fields.

Jean

[matt4x4]

Field dust is high in clay content, clay is really really fine, and wet clay is slippery - being out in the country myself, this is what I have to live with as well.

[nicole12]

I vacuumed the pool yesterday and it was spotless all day yesterday and today. I had put the panty hose back on the return. I took it off tonight and the filter will run through 2 cycles like that and tomorrow afternoon the grass gets cut again. I'm hoping to wake up tomorrow and have it be clean and then after the grass gets cut see some dust at the bottom of the pool. Even though it's a pain to vacuum at least I'll have my answer.

I'll post back tomorrow with what happened.

[nicole12]

Well to my dismay the pool had the dust/dirt in it this am. The only thing I did was to take off the panty hose. What I don't get is that the panty hose when I take them off have nothing in them. I've used regular color, nude, white. Nothing not even a feeling of grit. Wouldn't there be something in them?

This is my 4th season with the pool if it was the pump being too powerful for the filter why would I be seeing this just now? I used to only have to vacuum my pool once a week and everything would be in the middle would take 5 minutes.

I guess I'll just succumb to the fact that I'll have to vacuum everyday or throw the kids in the pool first thing in the morning to have them stir it up so I don't have to look at it.

[matt4x4]

Nicole - so, by the sounds of it, you're down to one of two possible issues.

1. Sand needs to flush out the fine dust created through shipping, one way to do that is to vac to waste, possible way to save water is to make jet circulate water in a circle, at which point, most deposits should happen in center, so just vac THAT area to waste.
Another way to do that (or at least get it out faster) is to add DE to filter through skimmer until pressure rises 1 lb (1-2 cups), wait 5-10 minutes and vacuum SLOWLY, once vacuuming is done, backwash immediately.

2. You have a broken lateral or stand pipe and the sand is washing through that.
Only way to find out is empty filter and inspect - repair or replace as necessary.

[nicole12]

I'll try the vacuum with DE then backwash.

It's not filter sand, may be filter dust but not sand. I had a broken part in the filter last year and this isn't the same at all. When you pick this stuff up there is nothing to it, not even graining. The sand in the pool last year you could physically see the little white and tan grandules of sand.

I'll post back the results in a couple of days.

[denanbob]

Nicole, I have the EXACT same thing. We vacuumed last night and it all came up fine (although I think it just disintegrated into a puff which made me think I vacuumed it), but this morning it is back!!!!! Not as heavy as last night, but it's back for sure. I am going out right now to take a picture of it. You can see it clearly because my water is so clear it's like liquid glass. I'll report back with the picture in 10 minutes!

[denanbob]

Ok, here are some pictures:
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j115/denanbob/IMG_1024Small.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j115/denanbob/IMG_1025Small.jpg
And here is just a picture of the overall pool just because I would be surprised if this were algae seeing as the water is so clear:
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j115/denanbob/IMG_1026Small.jpg

Is this what you have?

[matt4x4]

it may also be some type of pollen - yours sure looks like it, it's too light to be clay dust.
Do you have tiny specs floating on the surface ocasionally too? that would likely be pollen too. The stuff may just be too fine for the sand filter, so it's recirculating, and of course, over time, your pool surface is picking up more and more of it.

[nicole12]

Mine looks a little bit darker than that...not much though. We are pretty much done with the pollen here well as should say the filter sock doesn't pick up any, a month ago it would be green with all the pollen.

I'll take a picture of mine when it accumulates next.

[denanbob]

Matt ~ we have a DE filter, not a sand filter. We started up the system on Sunday for the first time and we put 4lbs. of DE into the skimmer as recommended in the instructions. That's why I initially thought it was "overflow" DE that got pushed through filter and into the pool. Since there is a smaller amount down there now than before we vacuumed, I'm still wondering if that is what it is. I'm wondering if it will slowly disappear over the next week. I'm keeping an eye on it.

[nicole12]

Pool bottom was clear today. Not sand/dust. I vacuumed yesterday am the regular way, didn't backwash. That info was received after I had already vacuumed, I was going to do that this am with the DE and backwash. The only other correlation that I can make is that it also seems to happen when it rains. Would that be possible that the rain is causing this dust somehow? Either pushing it from the surface to the bottom so the filter can't get it out or brings down more pollen from trees. Sounds extreme to me but I guess anything could be possible.

[poolrx]

Pool bottom was clear today. Not sand/dust. I vacuumed yesterday am the regular way, didn't backwash. That info was received after I had already vacuumed, I was going to do that this am with the DE and backwash. The only other correlation that I can make is that it also seems to happen when it rains. Would that be possible that the rain is causing this dust somehow? Either pushing it from the surface to the bottom so the filter can't get it out or brings down more pollen from trees. Sounds extreme to me but I guess anything could be possible.

Happens all the time when it rains here. Even more noticeable when no one is in the pool for a day. The current from the return will basically push it to the same spots each time. If you chemical levels are in line, try to vacuum as needed and enjoy the pool.
You mentioned you had the pool for 4 years. Have you had this occur before or just this year?

[nicole12]

This is just the first year, although last year I had a sand leak problem so it could have happened then and I wouldn't have noticed as much because it would have mixed in with the larger pieces of sand.
Also this summer we've gotten so much rain. Grass is still green without any sprinkler watering. Usually by this time the grass in our backyard is burnt.

[poolrx]

Ok, here are some pictures:
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j115/denanbob/IMG_1024Small.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j115/denanbob/IMG_1025Small.jpg
And here is just a picture of the overall pool just because I would be surprised if this were algae seeing as the water is so clear:

Is this what you have?

This is exactly how mine looked after shocking with the Calcium hypo shock, only worse. Did you try vacuuming and using just bleach? I don't know if it is just the calcium falling out of suspension or some precipitate from an interaction with something else in the water. What I find interesting is that it didn't happen the 1st year with the pool. But once I got the mustard algae I was going through bags of shock to try and kill it. Finally killed the algae but from then on (and even this year) I would get a whitish gray fine sediment anytime I use the Cal Hypo Shock. I have used bleach since then but just to prove out my theory I bought a couple bags of lithium hypo shock and they also dissolved instantly with no residual. My only guess is maybe it has something to do with TDS as that is the only number that is high from my pool water.:confused: :confused: :confused:

[poolrx]

This is just the first year, although last year I had a sand leak problem so it could have happened then and I wouldn't have noticed as much because it would have mixed in with the larger pieces of sand.
Also this summer we've gotten so much rain. Grass is still green without any sprinkler watering. Usually by this time the grass in our backyard is burnt.

Nicole, I hear you with the rain! I truly think it is just that. When I had the mustard algae it was on the ladder and across the whole bottom of the pool. I would vacuum at night and the next morning it was basically all over again. If the sediment is basically in the same area and you have one of the "eyeball" returns you can try pointing it in a different direction and see if the sediment "moves" to a different spot b/c of the current change.

[matt4x4]

Denanbob, it does look too white to be dirt - probably is DE.

[denanbob]

Denanbob, it does look too white to be dirt - probably is DE.

I think it is (was!). We vacuumed it up and then it was back the next day but not as heavy. Waited a couple days and vacuumed again last night. This morning there is not a speck to be found. I imagine it was just excess DE that the filter didn't need. I was worried my filter was malfunctioning, but now I think probably not.

[matt4x4]

Could also have been one of those "weird startup things" that happens - like the sand washing out of a newly loaded sand filter.

[nicole12]

Took a picture of the dust/dirt this morning. The pool was loaded with it. I was thinking about something else also. My filter runs at 16psi. When I remove the return plug to install panty hose or to fool with the "eye" the filter psi goes to 10. I wonder if that then changes the gpm enough that the filter can't handle the power from the pump and that pushes fine dirt into the pool. Again just grasping at straws. I've had the panty hose on now for a few days and the pool has been without dust/dirt. It hasn't rained so that is ruled out.

This morning I added 1 cup of DE vacuumed and the backwashed. So we'll see what happens next. I also vacuum with the skimmer basket in and the skimmer sock on. This stuff is so fine that it goes right through the skimmer sock...there was a tiny bit of filter sand when I vacuumed but not enough to even be measured.

I've attached a picture.
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/attachment.php?attachmentid=383&d=1152713785

[matt4x4]

Can't get at the pic......

[nicole12]

hmmm..I used the WYSIWYG editor and clicked on add image. not sure what i'm doing wrong.

[nicole12]

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k16/12nicole12/pooldirt.jpg

[Tredge]

nicole12

Thats EXACTLY what mine looks like. I dont have any DE in my system at all.

[duraleigh]

Nicole,

This thread is rambling all over the place with guesses and no progress.

1. You have never posted any test results....probably irrelevant but it's always a good starting point.

2. Have you actually picked this stuff up between your finger and thumb and determined it's not algae? (gritty, not slimy)

3. Just as an aside, when you put DE in, and then backwash, you are washing the DE right back out.

4. Why do you put DE in your filter? (I know the theory.....I'm interested in why you think this pool needs it and how long you've been doing it)

5. When you fixed the sand issue last year, what was that issue and how did it get fixed?

Those answers will help get us back on track (hopefully)

[nicole12]

Nicole,

This thread is rambling all over the place with guesses and no progress.

1. You have never posted any test results....probably irrelevant but it's always a good starting point.

I did post test results at the beginning of the thread:
FC 12
CC 0
CYA 100+
PH 7.5
TA 110


2. Have you actually picked this stuff up between your finger and thumb and determined it's not algae? (gritty, not slimy)

Yes it's gritty not slimy

3. Just as an aside, when you put DE in, and then backwash, you are washing the DE right back out.

I know I was just trying out a suggestion to add the DE to catch the dust I vacuum since I didn't want to vacuum to waste because my pool is so small that it would only be a matter of minutes to lose and inch.

4. Why do you put DE in your filter? (I know the theory.....I'm interested in why you think this pool needs it and how long you've been doing it)

To help to catch the small particles that the sand can't filter out. Today was the 3rd time that I've put the DE in the sand filter.

5. When you fixed the sand issue last year, what was that issue and how did it get fixed?

The main pipe that the laterals screw into was cracked so that was replaced with a new one, each lateral was checked and was in perfect condition. New sand was added.

Those answers will help get us back on track (hopefully)

Answers are above

[duraleigh]

Hi, Nicole,

Thanks for your answers....helpful.

I believe the dirt is coming from your filter somehow. This may be incredibly difficult to do, but one way I can think of to identify that is to redirect the water so it makes a stop before it goes back into your pool. (Sort of like a white settling tank) so you could identify any very fine particles coming from the filter. The overflow from that "tank" could then be directed into the pool. Are all your lines hard PVC?

Perhaps easiest would be to thoroughly empty all the sand from your filter and rinse it out well and then turn the pump on with no sand (or fine dirt) in the filter at all....If the filter is the source, the dirt will stop. In so doing it would give you an opportunity to carefully inspect the laterals for any small damage that may be letting very fine particles thru.

Those are troublesome experiments but, based on this entire thread and your descriptions, the filter seems to be the logical culprit.

[hrsdennis]

If the filter is suspect, why not just hook the return hose to the top of the pump and bypass the filter for a few days. See if anything changes.

Just a thought, since I hate to empty a sand filter, even if I am getting paid for it. :)

[nicole12]

I don't have any hard PVC, it's all just regular filter hoses with hose clamps.

If I removed the sand from the filter or tried hooking the return to the pump, how many days could I do that without having an unsanitary pool? Or does that not matter seeing as my chlorine levels are 12ppm due to high CYA levels?

No matter what the outcome, I have already decided at the end of the season I'm going to remove the sand and replace the laterals. I went over those laterals 3 times each to check for cracks, breaks. Maybe something was so small I missed it. I should have just done it last season but really they looked great.

[hrsdennis]

You are correct, running the pump and keeping your chlorine up will keep your pool sanitized.

The other likley suspect with a filter proplem is the valve assembly. In a multi port valve a bad spider gasket will blow stuff into the pool. This is a lot easier to check and fix than a hole in a latteral.

Later, Dennis

[nicole12]

How do I check the spider gasket? Do I take the top off of the filter? I have a document that has all filter parts and they don't list any type of spider gasket. They call the whole top piece the selector valve.

I could be that because when I first had the pool I used to switch the selector from filter to backwash to rinse with the filter running. Didn't know until visiting this forum I was supposed to shut the power off.

Here's a picture of my filter and parts.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k16/12nicole12/filter.jpg

[matt4x4]

Nicole, a filter can usually be set to "bypass" or "whirlpool" which will essentially do the same as emptying your sand out of it or removing the hoses to bypass it.
Duraleigh is onto something with the spider gasket.

I can tell you right now, you don't need a cracked lateral for this fine dirt to make it through a sand filter, laterals have relatively large openings in them in comparison to the dirt you are getting, if you had a cracked lateral, you would be getting sand in the pool too - cracked lateral is likely a non issue.

When you add the DE, have you looked at what comes out of your return within the next 5 minutes? If your return starts to eject cloudy water, then the DE is getting into your pool either by pushing through the sand (uncommon) or by way of a bad spider gasket.

When you set your filter to backwash or rinse, do you feel anything coming from the return? If you do, it's a sign of a bad spider gasket.

How far up did you fill your filter with sand? Just wondering if it's over full - this can also have negative effects.

Last but definitely NOT least, since this problem started after adding new sand, logic tells me the problem IS THE SAND ITSELF. Open the filter, grab a handfull of sand and spread it out on a paper towel, if it starts to dye your paper towel brown, it's the sand. By now, the finer particles may have settled towards the bottom of the filter, so if you can get a sample from further down it would be beneficial. Remember to backwash first so you're not grabbing dirty DE mistakenly.
If it's the sand, replace with Zeobrite or Zeolite - IMO - a great product.

Part E has to be disassembled - unbolt all bolts around the top ring, it should come appart vertically (probably also have to remove pin for handle and remove handle before it will lift appart.).