Can find cause of all the dirt/sand in the pool

[poolrx]

I don't have any hard PVC, it's all just regular filter hoses with hose clamps.

If I removed the sand from the filter or tried hooking the return to the pump, how many days could I do that without having an unsanitary pool? Or does that not matter seeing as my chlorine levels are 12ppm due to high CYA levels?

No matter what the outcome, I have already decided at the end of the season I'm going to remove the sand and replace the laterals. I went over those laterals 3 times each to check for cracks, breaks. Maybe something was so small I missed it. I should have just done it last season but really they looked great.

Nicole,

Maybe this is the next best step(bypassing the filter). I am baffled that you had the pantyhose over the outlet and the pool stayed clean yet nothing was in the pantyhose. It seems that it would have to be either the sand or environmental. I will throw out there that I have a DE filter and Tuesday I vacuumed what I would considered brownish sand/dirt in several locations(not quite as much as you have) off of the bottom. It is gritty, very fine and swirls up very easily. I have a Polaris and it is too fine for the bag to pick up. I can only link it to when it rains or is windy out and when I or the neighbor mows the lawn. I usually vacuum once or twice a month.

Good Luck, Joe

[hrsdennis]

Hi, the very top piece on the filter is held in place by a circle of bolts. You just remove these and the top lifts off. If the gasket looks good then just grease it good before putting the lid back on. If it looks bad take it with you to the pool store as there are many sizes to choose from.

Dennis

[Tredge]

Nicole12,

Still following with you. I still have the Exact same sediment in my pool, I also recently replaced my sand AND I have the same filter as you.

I have inspected my laterals as you have, I have also tried the panty-hose trick with no success. The only thing different is that I have NO DE in my system.

I think they may be on to somthing with the "spider gasket", now if we only knew for sure what part that is :)

I'll be sure to post when I find out more.

[nicole12]

I'll try backwashing later on this morning and post the results. It's pouring out here today so I'm sure I'll need to lower my pool anyway. When I put the DE I didn't notice anything cloudy coming from the return but can't say that I really concentrated on looking.

The settings on my filter are: "filter", "backwash", "rinse", "winter", "closed" and "recirculate" Could recirculate be the setting that I want? I don't know the difference either between "winter" and "closed".

I put the 3 (50lb) bags of sand into the filter, the filter is a 150lb filter. The first time I backwashed I lost about 5lbs of sand.

I just looked out in the pool and the dust/dirt on the bottom of the pool looks to have some white mixed in with it. I added some DE yesterday. So hopefully we are on to something with the spider gasket.

[nicole12]

Ok, so I went out and to see the spider gasket. Here is a picture of the gasket. Does it look ok? I did also backwash and nothing at all was coming out of the return.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k16/12nicole12/filter002.jpg

Then I took the top off of the filter and I saw the DE on the top but with all cracks in it. I think I remember reading that was bad. Here is a picture of that. Does it look like my sand it too high/low?

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k16/12nicole12/filter005.jpg

Then here is a picture of the skimmer sock this morning. Looks like it caught a lot of DE. The dust/dirt at the bottom of the pool is clearly lighter today. I think DE mixed in with it.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k16/12nicole12/filter006.jpg

Hopefully now with these pictures something will be obvious as to what the problem is.

[nicole12]

Just was outside in the pouring rain vacuuming the pool. Did vacuum up some DE. It was all inside of the cleaned out skimmer sock. While I was out there I was thinking of 2 things I'm going to do now to help to alleviate the constant vacuuming. These are only band-aid solutions and hopefully I can still find out what is actually wrong with the filter. We only really have a 3 month swimming season and it's a shame to be so upset over some dust in the bottom of the pool.

I'm going to buy a return slime bag to catch all this "stuff" that is going into the pool. I'm going to buy a shut-off valve and place it on the filter going to the return. Right now I run about 15psi so I'm going to restrict flow to get the psi up to around 23psi. Filter max. is 35psi. Recommendations on this forum suggest only raising around 10psi from your original starting point.

Would still love to know exactly what the problem is though.

[matt4x4]

Nicole - your filter looks awfully full, I can't tell exactly since the pic was straight down, but my guess is you have about 3" in there - I would rather see 6 to 8" free space.

What may be happening too is that the dirt is washing through where the standpipe meets the valve - while you have it all appart, can you check for scratches around where they meet?
Also, it's hard to tell, but your gasket looks worn in one part - the straight piece above the part that looks like a "burn" in the pic - the "burn" is also raising suspicion pointing at blow by being a culprit, but like I said, I can't really tell for sure, but from experience with gaskets in water systems, the gasket may even be worn just a tad little bit (we're talking thousands of an inch here which is not noticeable to the naked eye) but that would be enough to cause problems.

[duraleigh]

Nicole,

Ditto what Matt's saying....it looks like you may have too much sand in the filter. Check man.'s specs but generally, 2/3's full is the max.

[nicole12]

Ok, I'll remove some sand from the filter. Yes there were some scratches on the pipe. Would that be from too much sand in the filter?

If the gasket was bad wouldn't I feel some flow from the return while backwashing? I didn't feel anything or could the gasket be a little worn in one spot to allow small dust/sand to go through but not enough to affect backwashing?

[matt4x4]

so, I think what may be happening is that the high sand level is causing a bit more backpressure causing the silt to wash up the pipe where it's scored and flushing back into the pool (essentially just bypassing the sand filtering), I know there is a simple fix, but I'm having a brain fart on what it is!!!
Someone jump in here!!!
The spider Gasket is likely good enough for now since you are not feeling any flow when doing the test, so leave that alone for now, just make sure you use the pool gasket lube on it before reassembly or it will break on you relatively fast.

[nicole12]

went out and bought a shut-off valve and installed that on the return...even if i don't use it to restrict flow i need something on that side anyways.

i removed about a kids bucket full of sand. it's now at the point where the filter starts to curve up. not sure if i should take more out or not.

[matt4x4]

That sounds pretty good, give it a whirl for a bit there, you can always take more out.

[matt4x4]

Nicole - where are you at with this? Any improvements noticeable?

[nicole12]

The pool bottom is clear today no dust/dirt. I do think though that it was the sand being too high. It was really high, I thought that when I was putting it in how close it was to the top but it said add 150lbs so that's what I added. Wondering though if I should backwash again today to settle the sand down since I was fooling with it yesterday.

My manual doesn't say how high the sand should be on the filter, just says add 150lbs.

At the end of the season I'm going to remove the sand and check each lateral again just to be sure. Is it ok to save the sand since it's brand new this season. I figure I'll just put it in the wheel barrow and when it dries out I'll put it back in the filter. I'm also going to try to buy a new spider gasket for it. Tough finding AstralPool products.

Also I live in Mass. can I leave the sand filter outside this year. Just put a trash bag over it? I'll move the pump indoors, I think that's how I damage the pipe last time moving that filter.

[matt4x4]

Nicole - glad to hear things are looking up!
Backwashing does the opposite of settling, it pushes water up from the bottom to blow off the selled debris on top of your sand, normal filtering settles teh sand down.
If you don't get sand into your pool, don't empty the filter end of season, you may risk breaking a lateral since they get brittle over time.
Your filter should have a drain plug on the bottom, open that and set it to winterize on the handle, when you shut the systems down for the year, it will take a bit, but your water will eventually drain out, a big garbage bag over it bungeed on the bottom is good, I actually remove the valve assy and bring it indoors leaving only the covered tank outside.

[nicole12]

Thank you to everyone for all your help!

[THE PEACOCK LADY]

I had this very same problem last year, it turned out to be dead algae, so fine the filter could not filter it, I added all kinds of stuff ,nothing worked. the only solution is clean water.
I had to empty the pool,and scrub it down with Clorox. Worth every bit the energy it took, because my water has been perfect this year (so far) another thing, how old is the sand in your filter?
good luck to you

[nicole12]

My filter is 4 years old. New sand this year. I emptied some sand because my filter was too full with sand and now that it's dried out I was picking it up and after I dump out of my hand most of the bigger piece of sand the other stuff is so fine it's like kids play sand. Maybe I got some really bad sand from the pool store.

[nicole12]

:( Sad to say it's back. I had the panty hose on the return took it off tonight to test to see if it was the sand being too high. The pump turned on and within 5 minutes it was all over the bottom of the pool.

Could it be possible that the pump is so oversized that when it starts up it forces the fine stuff right through the laterals? I vacuumed about an hour ago and so far there is nothing else on the bottom. Hopefully the fact that the dust comes out right when the pump starts up will lead to some answers.

I turned the shut off valve about 1/2 way off and it raised the pressure from 15psi to 20psi on the filter so we'll see what happens when the filter comes on in the morning. The return jet was so strong before you couldn't even put you hand over the return itself.

[nicole12]

Checked the pool this morning before the filter kicked on. The pool was still clean from the vacuuming which means the "stuff" only comes out when the filter first turn on. I held a skimmer sock in front of the return when it first kicked on, held it there for about 5 minutes nothing in the bag.

The fact that the debris only enters when the filter first turns on, does that rule out some things?

[bdavis]

The fact that the debris only enters when the filter first turns on, does that rule out some things?

I have the same problem with my sand filter. Although, with mine, you can see the cloud of dirt coming from the return when the pump turns on.

I have been watching this thread closely to see if I can learn anything new.

I plan of posting a new topic when I get back from vacation. See if I can post some pics of said cloud.

Cheers

[nicole12]

Well tonight DH got into the pool with a garden hose and he sucked out as much of the debris as he could find. It's filter sand and some DE. It's as fine if not finer than kids play sand.

Check out this picture of it. I had the garden hose in the foot bucket to see if I could catch some of it. Not the greatest picture. The large straight item in the picture is a 1" blade of grass so you can see how fine this stuff is.

So for now our plan of action is to continue to use the garden hose to vacuum the debris out of the pool and see if it gets less and less. I have a new spider gasket on order so as soon as that comes in I'm going to replace it. Can't hurt. The old gasket did have some questionable spots to it. Looked cut up in some places.

Will frequent backwashing also get rid of some of this sand dust?



http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k16/12nicole12/dirt002.jpg

The reason why we used the garden hose is because our pool only has 7500 gallons and to vacuum to waste it would only take minutes to lose an inch. So it would have been quicker but we were trying to save water.

[matt4x4]

I would think the fine stuff is settling to the bottom of the filter, so backwashing will actually prolong it's stay inside the unit by pushing it up into teh mass of sand again only to have it work it's way back down.
Just keep doing what you're doing, it's probably from the new sand. It does sound like it's getting to be less though.

[poolrx]

Nicole,

Glad you found out what the problem is. At least you know it is just sand and not algae or something worse. I wish I could be more help but I am not really familar with sand filters. Matt sound pretty knowledgable and hopefully he can help you until you get it corrected.

Joe

[wilcfr]

I am going to jump in on this discussion. I have an IG(38,000 gals) gunnite with the same problem. It also started after our pool company put in new sand last Spring(05) after a bad Cicada season. The pool guys admits it is sand, but says it is not from the filter because it is a different color(tan vs white). We did have a bad spider gasket and had to replace the whole top assembly on our filter this summer(not a hard job after we found the part). Our sediment may be somewhat different. It has a grit to it(sandy), but also is a little slimy. It also stains the pool if you do not get it out everyday, which sometimes just isn't possible. If I am understanding everybody correctly we should take some sand out of the filter and put it on some paper and see if the color matches the pool sand, bypass the filter in someway to see if that stops the accumulation and also check how much sand the 10 year olds from the pool company put in our filter last Spring and if necessary take some sand out of the filter if it is there is too much.

I'll get back to you.

[nicole12]

I'm still waiting to receive my new spider gasket, hard to find for this filter. Ordered on July 17th, supposedly backordered until August 31st. Thinking I'll receive this just in time to close the pool. Problem still exists I just use panty hose over the return and the pool stays crystal clear. I will post back results when/if I get my new spider gasket.

[matt4x4]

Nicole, if you're going to get it THAT late, just verify it's the correct one, but don't install til next year, it will give you a bit more life. Hopefully next year you can let us know if it fixed the issues.

[nicole12]

I received the new gasket today and I'm afraid it's not the right one. It fits exactly the pattern on the inside of the filter but doesn't fit the pattern on the yellow piece it attaches to. Will this gasket work? I've attached some pictures.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k16/12nicole12/gasket003.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k16/12nicole12/gasket001.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k16/12nicole12/gasket002.jpg

[matt4x4]

Nicole - that MAY have been your problem all along, that the old gasket was MISSING a web - therefore, sand can blow by.
If this gasket IS in fact for your filter, then maybe teh old gasket was not the right onr or a piece broke out - did you inspect the old to see if a piece may have been there before (little rough spots or something where it should be connected to the inner/outer rings)?

Edit - I just went to astral and checked into it, probably is the wrong part, don't know since I don't know hte exact filter you have......
Here's a link to look for yourself - it looks like the ones with the one less web also have a bigger center ring - just like yours.
Maybe you can find the right one and order it directly.
http://www.astralpoolcatalog.com/Home%20Page/technical%20info%20Residential.htm Choose filter from there...

If you have the Millenium or Cantabric top mounted 16/20/24" model (likely you do), then it's the wrong part, you need part number 19028R0204, what you got was for the side mount 30 or 36" Aster or Cantabric part number 07441R0002

[nicole12]

Thank you so much for that information. Hopefully pool1.com can get me that spider gasket to replace the wrong one that I ordered.