Bleach same as Chlorine [Archive]

CarlD

07-02-2006, 05:31 PM

That's a different question. My answer would be "yes".

All chlorination chems ultimately add chlorine and it doesn't matter the source.

HOWEVER, each chem has other effects: Tri-Chlor tablets lower pH and add lots of stabilizer.
Di-Chlor powder lowers pH too, but not nearly as much. It also add stabilizer--a lot but not as much as Tri-Chlor.
Cal-Hypo adds calcium and tends to raise pH.
Lithium and potassium chlorites empty your wallet INCREDIBLY quickly.
Only bleach/Liquid chlorine has almost no side effects.

cleancloths

07-02-2006, 06:18 PM

Carl, that is not quite true. Most of what you said is 100% on, but bleach does tend to raise the pH quite a bit. At least in my experience.

CarlD

07-02-2006, 08:26 PM

I've heard that some people have found that bleach raises pH. It is not my personal experience, though.

cleancloths

07-02-2006, 08:56 PM

I've heard that some people have found that bleach raises pH. It is not my personal experience, though.

That is really strange, because if you tested the pH of bleach you would find it off the chart (to the high side). I find that my pool stays at a perfect pH level if I use a mix of 3" pucks which drop the pH and Bleach which raises it.

CarlD

07-02-2006, 09:07 PM

I know the pH of bleach is something like 11, but I rarely see my pH move when I use it (which is all the time). However, if I use pucks, it drops quite dramatically.

Watermom

07-02-2006, 10:31 PM

Bleach does not raise my ph either.

lagtime

07-02-2006, 11:14 PM

Bleach does raise pH in my pool, enough so that I add acid weekly.

For the previous 9 years (of high CYA using stabilized chlorine) I've never needed to add anything to maintain pH in the 7.2 range.

Adding some acid isn't a big deal considering how much better the pool looks on the BBB routine, but I'm interested in what could be the reason for some of us seeing a steady upward creep in pH while others don't.

halds

07-02-2006, 11:35 PM

If bleach does not raise your pH, then you must be adding acid from something. Usually trichlor pucks is the answer. Or frequent rains. Or you are losing alkalinity (bicarb) due to a waterfall or aeration.

Hal

Poolsean

07-02-2006, 11:58 PM

Carl, Watermom...interesting responses. Can we follow this out to see what may be causing your particular pools to not need alot of acid with the use of bleach? It is fact that bleach is high in pH and typically require the addition of acid when you add bleach.
Do you both have automatic water fill lines? Vinyl liners or gunite pools? Indoor or outdoor pools?
Where do you keep your chemical parameters?

waterbear

07-03-2006, 01:51 AM

There have also been some posts of people with SWGs that have constant pH. If my memory serves me correctly they all had vinyl pools. I know Carl has a vinyl pool, don't know about Watermom. I wonder if there is something leaching from the vinyl that is lowering the pH. My fiberglass pool with a SWG needs constand additions of acid to keep the pH down (as is expected)

CarlD

07-03-2006, 07:08 AM

I think this is a fascinating discussion, but since it's getting technical, I'm going to move it to the China Shop.

I generally add about a gallon of regular bleach every two days--to 19,200 gallons. We've had a lot of rain lately (unless you are a hermit you know that NJ and NY have been HAMMERED with rain) and that tends to be acid.

OK: so before we get to the esoteric let's look at some obvious factors:
1) Amount of bleach to pool volume. I add 1 gallon to 19,200 every other day...dilution alone explains a lot of it.
2)Powders dissolve rather than dilute--is that a factor?
3) Total Alkalinity---let's remember this is SUPPOSED to keep your pH from moving. Usually, mine is in the safe-for-vinyl/unsafe-for-concrete range 140-160. This year I'm only running 80-90 (too lazy to add baking soda) and the pH has moved more than it does, but not so much that I'm concerned. I don't care if pH moves between 7.3 and 7.6 and down again as long as it's in that range.
4) Acid rain. Doesn't take much to lower pH.

That's all I can think of this morning....

Sherra

07-03-2006, 11:47 AM

Just throwing my short lived BBB experience out there. I've not had an issue with high PH in my pool this season (new pool) and I'm strictly on the BBB method. Even when I had the algae issue earlier this season and added 10-15 gallons of bleach over just a few days (I lost count) my PH was always 7.2-7.5.

Waterworks

07-04-2006, 01:11 AM

I'll throw in my two cents.
Most of my customers never ever use ph down, whether it be dry acid or muriatic. If they use anything at all to adjust their ph it is ph up (soda ash). Many of my customers use only 12% liquid chlorine, with no pucks, and hardly any use cal hypo. We've always figured that this is because of our city water's ph of 6.6, alkalinity of 30, acid rain and having properly alkalinity balance.
Also, we've sold around 30 SWC's and haven't heard a complaint yet of high ph. These people tend to range from 7.5-7.8, while our normal customers tend to range from 7.2-7.5.

Brad
Waterworks Pools

peggles0224

07-04-2006, 12:51 PM

So will all the following get me through the summer barring no "funny business"????

1. Generic Bleach (this is my chlorine to use... I don't need the tablets with Tri or Di chemicals in them?)

2. Borax

3. Baking Soda

4. Muriatic Acid

5. Cyanuric Acid

6. 6 Way tester from HTH

7. Bathing Suit

8. Floaties

AG 8,500

Sand Filter

Sherra

07-04-2006, 01:25 PM

Sounds about right. You only have to add the cyanuric acid once though. Once you get it to the level you want it, then don't add any more (whether it be through pucks, di-chlor shock, etc.). Just use the bleach for all your chlorination and "shock" needs.

CarlD

07-04-2006, 02:39 PM

Bathing suit is optional! :rolleyes:

peggles0224

07-04-2006, 07:53 PM

Thank you for all your help. I think I got it now, although I know I have to make out a cheat sheet with how to test, what to add if I'm low or high on something, and what are the "good" measurements. Should I buy another test kit other the walmart... Or do this once my test stuff runs out? What should I buy?

Thanks for all your help here, although I struggled, I think I learned alot.

Sincerely,

The Floaters ...... :p = Peggy and :cool: = Jim

prh129

07-05-2006, 12:09 PM

Interesting discussion - I will try to collect a rain sample in a clean cup and test the pH. In two and a half months, my pH has not moved up at all with bleach in fact it seems to creep down (usually around 7.3). I have not added any water to the pool in this time but I have had to drain water out at least 4 different times because of all the rain this year.

I've been using about a 3qt container of 6% bleach every two days and my alk was 90 the last time I checked it in a 13500 gal AG pool.

Peter

poolrx

07-05-2006, 11:42 PM

My PH also goes up with the bleach. PH usually runs around 7.6-7.7. When it gets any higher I add some acid. Usually once a month. With all of the rain I have actually had to add some Borax this year:) I add 1.42 gallons of bleach every 3 days give or take. Our rain water is way down on the scale! PH Test comes up yellow:eek: Once the rain is over I am going to try adding some Trichlor pucks to the chlorinater and place it at the lowest setting. I have lost a bit of CYA from draining due to the rain and I'll see if the pucks offset the bleach in regards to the PH difference.

prh129

07-06-2006, 01:10 PM

Yup - I did the pH test today on some rainwater from early this morning and it was about as yellow as the 3ppm chlorine level on the other side of the OTO tester!

Peter

haze_1956

07-07-2006, 01:46 PM

Have had my AG for a full year using only 6% generic bleach and PH has been at a constant 7.2 the whole time.

topnotch

07-10-2006, 11:05 PM

Poolsean

07-10-2006, 11:19 PM

waterbear

07-11-2006, 12:03 AM

It's harder for algae to grow with moving water (stream in your case).
You'd be better having the water tested first. High levels of phosphates (from animal droppings, decaying vegitation, fertilizer) or phosphates (fertilizer again) will get you in trouble from the get go.
Not to mention the nitrates from fertilizer! ;):)
(I knew what you meant so I took the liberty of correcting it. I've made many a typo like that myself!)

medvampire

07-11-2006, 05:39 AM

Posted by CarlD

Bathing suit is optional!

Bathing suit is not optional but nessary

Old lady up the street may keel over.............in laughter :o
Steve

cleancloths

07-11-2006, 06:26 AM

Does the source of the water matter in this discussion...i have a nice clean stream on my property and I cant see a reason why I shouldn't pump my 20K gallons out of it since I am going to zap it with chlorine. I ask this about the source because you two have different results...

Don't do it, there are micobes and all sorts of stuff in that water you cannot see. I did this once with the stream on my property that feeds our local lake. Boy was it a mistake. My water got cloudy and it took about two weeks to clear it up which included backwashing my DE filter about 10 times in that period.

Poconos

07-11-2006, 10:43 AM

I think it's perfectly OK to use stream water for a fill under certain situations and conditions. I have done it for years, including Spring 2005 when I had to top with 10,000 gal while chasing a leak. I have a small stream on my property and have never had a problem. I agree that the water should be tested if possible, right before a massive fill. I don't. However, no fertilizers as nobody upstream uses fertilizers and most of the stream is fed by ground water. Also depends on the flow. In the Spring mine flows a lot so anything undesirable is probably flushed. Next, for the massive fills like last Spring, I pumped the stream into the waste line with the sand filter set on backwash so the water came out of the skimmer, after going through the filter in the right direction. For small top offs I pump right into the skimmer with the pool pump running. Then...shock like crazy. Again, it all depends on specific situations.
Al

mas985

07-11-2006, 12:03 PM

That is really strange, because if you tested the pH of bleach you would find it off the chart (to the high side). I find that my pool stays at a perfect pH level if I use a mix of 3" pucks which drop the pH and Bleach which raises it.

Sorry to have jumped into this one so late but even if the PH of chlorine is at 11, it will not affect the pool that much. The resultant PH of 1 gallon at PH 11 and 20,000 at 7.5, assuming no buffers (i.e. worst case):

ph = -log10 [(1 * (10^-11) + 20000 * (10^-7.5)) / 20001] = 7.500022

Virtually no change at all. Acid is a different story. Because it is close to 0 and the formula is logarithmic, it has a much bigger impact on PH.
ph = -log10 [(1 * (10^-1) + 20000 * (10^-7.5)) / 20001] = 5.3

A big difference. Unfortunately, these formulas are for solutions without buffers but they do give you an upper limit on PH swings.