gas vs. electric heater?

[rlp]

We're getting ready to buy a heater for our in ground pool. We live in Tampa, but the pool stays pretty cold most of the year. I keep hearing that gas is more expensive to run, but I don't get any details as to how much money we're talking about or what the pros & cons are for each. Anybody know or have any experience with this? Any advice would be appreciated.

[blk133]

We're getting ready to buy a heater for our in ground pool. We live in Tampa, but the pool stays pretty cold most of the year. I keep hearing that gas is more expensive to run, but I don't get any details as to how much money we're talking about or what the pros & cons are for each. Anybody know or have any experience with this? Any advice would be appreciated.

Hi,

Have you thought of getting a heatpump instead of gas/electric. Heatpump pump won't heat it as fast but it will save you some $$$ in a long run.

I got myself one after donig a lot of research. (Aquacal H155) and my pool is about 35,000 gal.

I don't know how big your pool is, but for Tampa heatpump wouldn't be such a bad idea IMO.

If you'll wait a little longer some one will chime in and tell you how much money you'll be spending on gas v. electric. For heatpump it shouldn't be a lot that is IF you use a solar cover during a night to cover your pool and prevent a heat loss.

[rlp]

I didn't know you could buy just a heat pump. Our pool is only 10,000 gallons. I'll have to look into it as well. I just know I don't only want solar b/c I want to heat more than 10-15 degrees. The thing down here is sometimes you'll have an 80 degree day in the winter, but then it'll drop to 50 degrees the next day so it keeps the pool from staying at a decent temp. Plus we have a lot of shade trees which doesn't help. Thanks for your input!

[blk133]

I didn't know you could buy just a heat pump. Our pool is only 10,000 gallons. I'll have to look into it as well. I just know I don't only want solar b/c I want to heat more than 10-15 degrees. The thing down here is sometimes you'll have an 80 degree day in the winter, but then it'll drop to 50 degrees the next day so it keeps the pool from staying at a decent temp. Plus we have a lot of shade trees which doesn't help. Thanks for your input!

Sure you can buy just a heat pump. It works of 220 V though. You'll need someone (electrician) to run the dedicated line for it that will bring 220v with it. I don't know if electric heater also need 220v.

As for Gas heater you will need ofcourse to run a gas line from your house or you can buy a propane heater (which is also an expensive way) and for this one you'll have to fill the tank with propane.

After you'll do some research you'll find that Heat Pump will cost more than Gas heater, but as I said before in a long run it will be cheaper to use.

50 Degrees might not be a great temperature for a heat pump that doesn't have an ice braker option installed, but Aquacal sells one with that option, same name H155 only it has ice braker installed.

Again as I said, it will take longer to heat, but cheaper.
I don't work for any Pool company, just trying to help.

B.

[kaybinster]

Heatpump is the only way to go in my mind. I have had one for my 20x40 IG in Northern NJ for 8 years and it works great. Much more cost effective than nat gas. Check with any company that makes them and they will be glad to share the economics with you -- some even have this on the websites.

One thing you must understand is that while a heatpump is more efficient it will not raise the temperature as fast as a gas heater. A gas heater might be sized at 400,000 BTU/hr while a typical heatpump is around 100,000 BTU/hr -- thus is will take about 3-4 times longer to raise the temperature. But, once you are at temperature it will maintain it just fine.

A heat pump uses electricity to run a compressor to extract heat from the air. Typically for each unit of energy you put in you get 3 or 4 units of energy out. It is about the same as a home central air conditioning unit. With a central air unit you are extracting heat from the house and dumping it into the air outside. With a pool heatpump you are extracting the heat from the outside air and dumping it into the pool water.

[duraleigh]

A heat pump uses electricity to run a compressor to extract heat from the air. Typically for each unit of energy you put in you get 3 or 4 units of energy out. HuH?

Folks, heat pumps' effectiveness depends on how far North you live. Not many heat pumps in Sasketchewan....nor probably Wisconsin, either.

Dave S.

[kaybinster]

Dave while that maybe true for home heating it does not make sense for pool heating. The reason is that if it is warm enough to swim in an outside pool then the air is warm enough to provide plenty of heat for the pool. The efficiency is impacted by the outside temperature, but I don't think too many people swim when the outside temp is under 60 degrees.

[kaybinster]

Found this info at the following site:

http://www.millsco.com/Heatsiphon.htm

THE LOWEST OPERATING COST OF ALL POOL & SPA HEATERS.
Using 220v electricity, based on US Dept. of Labor Average US City fuel prices, HEAT SIPHON® will cost you:
50% LESS to operate than NATURAL GAS POOL HEATERS!
80% LESS to operate than PROPANE (LP) GAS POOL HEATERS!
75% LESS to operate than ELECTRIC RESISTANCE POOL HEATERS!

Also some very good info on how a heatpump works at the bottom of that page.

[waterbear]

I live in St. Augustine and my Aquacal Icebreaker not only kept my pool (6600gal fiberglass) warm all winer it will heat my spa (300 gal acrylic) to 100 deg. in abut 15 mintues! Heatpumps cost more inially but if you look at the cost over a 10 year period vs electric or gas they will actually save you money.(at least in Fl)

[rlp]

Thank you so much for your input. We will go with the heat pump. I was already leaning that way, but when I went to Leslies the sales person didn't really give me the information I was asking him for. He just kind of handed me some paperwork on the most expensive one & told me gas was too expensive to run, so I thought I'd ask opinions of those that use them so I wouldn't feel like I was getting misinformation. Thanks again!

[duraleigh]

Kaybinster,


The reason is that if it is warm enough to swim in an outside pool then the air is warm enough to provide plenty of heat for the pool. The efficiency is impacted by the outside temperature, but I don't think too many people swim when the outside temp is under 60 degrees.

Yeah, good point on only using the heat pump when it's efficient. I hadn't thought my post through very carefully.:)

Dave S.

[leejp]

It absolutely drives me crazy...

Here in upstate NY we have the house central AC going starting around mid-May and run it through mid September. But our pool usually doesn't get warm enough to swin in until late May early June. Late June through mid August is optimal for swimming and late August the pool begins to cool significantly.

Why can't I just dump the heat from my house from May-mid June and mid Aug-Sep to the Pool???!!!

If you live in Tampa you practically have the AC on all year long, no?

Many home geothermal heat pumps put heat to (or pull heat from) a body of water (pond/lake/ocean). Why can't pool water be used for this. Sure, one would have to make sure that the plumbing is done in a fashion so that the Chlorine in the pool does not corrode the condensor/evaporator but this just seems soooo simple!

[waterbear]

Many home geothermal heat pumps put heat to (or pull heat from) a body of water (pond/lake/ocean). Why can't pool water be used for this. Sure, one would have to make sure that the plumbing is done in a fashion so that the Chlorine in the pool does not corrode the condensor/evaporator but this just seems soooo simple!
A closed loop water cooled heat pump could probably work. Biggest problem is that your really would need a very big pool to handle the heat pulled from an average sized house and since the pool becomes the heat exchanger for the system imagine how hot that pool would become in the summer!

[Poconos]

Concerning using pool water to provide the heat sink for whole house A/C I don't think heating the pool water too much would be a problem. Just don't cover it at night if it gets too warm. There are a couple advantages to water to freon exchangers, as opposed to freon to air. Quieter...no big fan, motor, power consumption. Smaller size than the fan cooled assembly. All you need is a small donkey pump when the pool pump isn't running. Heat goes into something useful like heating the pool instead of the great outdoors. If I had central A/C for the house here in NE PA I'd definitely be using the pool water.
My nickels worth.
Al

[Brock]

I bought two 5000 BTU heat pumps. They were initially intended to be connected to a water heater and it would heat the water and blow out cold air. So I connected these two units in series and dropped the feed line and return in to our pool (they each have their own small circulation pump) and connected the air output to our furnace. In summer or as soon as we need cooling in the house I turn these on and they start to do their thing. In the middle of summer I can get by with running the central AC very little and the pool heater not at all. The cost of running the heat pumps are about the same as running AC alone, but instead of dumping the heat outside I am heating the pool. Since our pool is indoors and the surface is at a minimum of 6 feet below ground and deep end is about 25 feet below ground the pool needs heating year round, about the same all year actually.

[waterbear]

Concerning using pool water to provide the heat sink for whole house A/C I don't think heating the pool water too much would be a problem. Just don't cover it at night if it gets too warm.
Probably not in PA but here in FL the pool gets to 90 on it's own with the heater off and stays there. Might have to try the reverse cycle on my pool heat pump this summer to see if it cools it off!:rolleyes:

[leejp]

Concerning using pool water to provide the heat sink for whole house A/C I don't think heating the pool water too much would be a problem. Just don't cover it at night if it gets too warm.
Al

I was thinking in May, June or Sep the AC would not be on all that much and one would have to bring the temp from ~60* or so to 80*+. July+Aug one would not be using the pool water for the heat pump.

[Poconos]

I guess I'm thinking more from an efficiency standpoint for house A/C as opposed to trying to extending the swimming season. Here in Northeast PA pools normally don't get too warm on their own unless we have a really hot spell. I'll take every BTU I can get to heat the pool.
Al

[Brock]

That was my thought as well. Since we always need heat for the pool it isn't an issue. I just use the heat pumps for cooling the house as necessary and any additional heat that ends up in the pool offsets the gas heater. I did find about 20 hours a day or more will increase my pool temp. Although it is pretty rare I needed that much cooling. In those cases the central AC would just pick up the slack. Again it is a win-win.

I actually run off peak rates so I typically run the heat pumps and pool pumps off peak unless it is really warm. Our modest solar array picks up about 1/2 the loading of I do run on peak.

[PoolDesignnet]

RLP an Aquacal H120 is much better suited for your pool. Also, before buying a heat pump, please have an electrician determine if your existing panel has enough power to run an additional load (40 to 50 amps).


I didn't know you could buy just a heat pump. Our pool is only 10,000 gallons. I'll have to look into it as well. I just know I don't only want solar b/c I want to heat more than 10-15 degrees. The thing down here is sometimes you'll have an 80 degree day in the winter, but then it'll drop to 50 degrees the next day so it keeps the pool from staying at a decent temp. Plus we have a lot of shade trees which doesn't help. Thanks for your input!

[Zaphod]

I've been following this thread, as I, too, am interested in a pool heater (a consideration I make as I have my liner replaced).

I've received informal quotes for installed gas heaters at $2,500 and about $7,000 for installed heat pumps (the quotes are informal in that I've described on the phone that I have a 16X40 in-ground vinyl pool that's 8 feet in the deep end. No one's come out yet to look at my pool).

Do these numbers sound reasonable for the South, specifically Georgia?

One follow-up question: For either heating option, what other modifications need to be made to the pool to get the water heated (aside from the gas line for a gas heater and a dedicated electrical line for the heat pump)?

Thanks.

[kaybinster]

Assuming you have no heater now, the numbers seem totally messed up. If the gas heater requires that a natural gas line be run from the house then it is way low. The heat pump number seems way high even if it includes running 220VAC electric. I think you should get some other bids.

As for other modifications they are minimal. Obviously you will have to cut into the return piping and run it to the heater and then connect the heater output to the return lines. You might want to install valving so that you can by-pass the heater at times. Other than that you should be fine as is, unless your pump is at its limits in which case the extra pressure drop from the heater might restrict your flow. You can always install it and then see if you need to upsize the pump based on actual flow rates once you are done.

[DavidD]

I Agree, the Heat pump cost seams way high. Last March, I purchased a Jandy XE2550 Titanium Scroll Heat Pump from poolheatpumps.com for $2,300 (free shipping to commercial address with loading dock) for my 16x32, 16K gallon IG fiberglass pool. I think the newer models are around $2500 this year. I then spent another $200 for wire, panel and conduit and installed it myself since I'm quite the shade tree electrician. It did take me all day to install so I would count on paying someone for at least 6 hours labor.
On another note, we swam April 02, 2005 until Nov 11, 2005 (except for a couple of cold weeks in late Oct.). Pool water was 84 degrees Saturday before last (04/01/06) however it did take almost 3 days of running the pump 8 hours during the day to bring water from 64 to 84 (also with a solar cover left on). With the huge jump in local gas prices recently, for once I think I made the right choice the first time as I was considering a gas heater.

[mopool]

I Got A New Heat Pump This Year, 16,000gal Fiberglass Pool, We Are In Missouri Day 1 Water Temp Is 55- High Air Temp 64 Low Was 33
Day 2 Water Temp Is 68- High Air Temp 55 Low Was 36
Day 3 Water Temp Is 81- High Air Temp 67 Low Was 44
Day 4 Water Temp Is 93 High Air Temp 61 Low Is 55
Went For A Night Swim On April 10th

The Heat Pump Is Holding The Temp At 90 To 93

And My Wife Loves Her Big New Bath Tub

[kaybinster]

What type and size heat pump did you put in? Glad to hear it worked so well, although heating it that hot with these cold nights you may be in for a nasty surprise when you get your next electric bill. Sure they are less costly to run than gas, but they are not free!

[rlp]

The only quote I've received so far is for a Hayward HeatPro 2100 & Leslie's is offering free installation so it'll come to about $3100 if we decide to go with them. I've looked at Aquacal & some others & they're all around $3K, so $7K does seem way off the map.

[mopool]

I got a pentair "THERMALFLO 1200 HP"
THE LAST THREE YEARS IN MISSOURI HAVE BEEN COOL SUMMERS, THE HEAT PUMP INSTALLED WAS $5,550.00 THATS ALOT BUT IF WE CAN HAVE TWO OR THREE MORE MONTHS OF FUN IT WILL BE OK

THE POOL INSTALLED WITH ROCK, BATHHOUSE, AND LANDSSCAPING WAS OVER $50,000. SO 10% MORE AND DBL THE SWIM TIME IS OK

[Zaphod]

DavidD:

Thanks for the site recommendation (http://poolheatpumps.com). I also found another site - http://shop.solardirect.com/ - which offers side-by-side comparisons of the virtues of gas/electric/solar heating and sells products for each one. (An aside: I've not ordered from either site and haven't found independent reviews of either, so I can't speak to the customer satisfaction).

I've zeroed in on the Jandy AE2500-t heat pump, rated at 115,000 BTUs, which seems hefty enough to heat my 29,000-gallon pool, based on my research thus far. It's listed at $2,995.00 with free delivery.

I've consulted with a couple of local installers who are quoting me installation of about $400 to $500 (one caveat: I need to expand the subpanel at my pool, which is currently rated at 60 amps for my pump, filter and booster pump. The Jandy would draw an additional 60 amps, so I'm in the process of getting a quote for the subpanel upgrade). The install includes connecting the Jandy to the electrical box and attaching it to the filtration system. (So, that wild $7,000 over-the-phone estimate was grossly inflated and underinformed).

rlp, I had initially considered a gas heater. They seemed to be about $500 to $1,000 less than comparable heat pumps. But dealers and installers - along with some independent research - convinced me that the heat pump was the way to go: higher initial costs seemed to be offset by lower operating costs (ie, cheaper electric than gas power). Additionally, I'd need to run a natural gas line from my house to about 150-200 feet to the pool area, at about $1,000 for the first 50 feet. That about gave me a heart attack - and started to sway me toward a heat pump.

The following link contains U.S. Department of Energy comparisons of how to heat a swimming pool: gas, solar and electric:

http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/water_heating/index.cfm/mytopic=13160

It's been a useful thread, rlp.

Thanks,

Z