Calcium

[zelmo]

Is there a "grocery store" source for adding calcium?

[waterbear]

Drink lots of milk?:eek:
(ok, I'll go back to my corner now!)

Not that I know of but it can be had at other places than a pool store. Calcium cloride (I beleive it is 73%) is also used as a de-icer in winter. My friendly neighborhood pool store carrier it in the small expensive 5 lb plastic jars marked for pool use and also sells it in 25lb bags which are marked as being for deicing. I double checked their price at my friendly neighborhood Home Depot and the pool store was competative so I decided to give them my business since the owner always takes the time to answer my questions to the best of his knowlege. (The guy tries but he has been pool stored himself!)
Anyway, I am getting off track, You can find it at home improvement stores like Lowes and Home Depot but it migh not be any cheaper than at the pool store if you buy the BIG bag sold as a deicer. If you don't need a whole lot you can buy the small jars and Walmart, lowes, home depot, ect. in the pool supplie dept.

(If anyone is wondering why I use calcium with a fiberglass pool and acrylic spa--my fill water comes out of my whole house water softener and I do have a heatpump in the system so I run my CH at about 140-150 ppm since I have 0ppm CH normally.)

[zelmo]

Thanks. My local Leslie's sells their Calc Up (CaCl2) in larger buckets, but it isn't cheap. Are you saying that your local store brings in the de-icer and sells it as calcium increaser?

[waterbear]

-a
Thanks. My local Leslie's sells their Calc Up (CaCl2) in larger buckets, but it isn't cheap. Are you saying that your local store brings in the de-icer and sells it as calcium increaser? Yes, the local Pinch-a-Penny frachise sells DowFlake brand Calcium Chloride in big bags. It says it's 77% -80% calcium chloride and the instructions on the bag are for melting snow and ice. They also sell a few pool brands in small and big plastic buckets but they co$t a lot more per pound and have the same ingredient.
Once again, calcium chloride is calcium chloride

[zelmo]

After looking around, a local hardware store still has PELADOW de-icer. I looked at Dow's website and it is very similar to DowFlake, except that it is in pellet form and is 90% CaCl2.

Does anyone know how easily the pellets dissolve?

[kaybinster]

Why do you want to add calcium chloride to raise calcium, why not calcium carbonate which is plain old lime. You can buy a 50# bag at the garden store very cheaply -- remember to get the white powdered kind not that newer pellet style.

[zelmo]

Why do you want to add calcium chloride to raise calcium, why not calcium carbonate which is plain old lime. You can buy a 50# bag at the garden store very cheaply -- remember to get the white powdered kind not that newer pellet style.

Since what the pool stores sell to raise calcium is CaCl2, I figured that is what I needed. It is also what waterbear suggested, and is the chemical in the bleac calc program.

Thanks for suggesting lime. I will look into that.

[kaybinster]

Zelmo WAIT WAIT WAIT!!!!

I am not saying you should run out an buy lime, I am asking why not use it as a cheaper source of calcium. I don't know off hand if it would be a problem or not, but I would think it would work quite well. I suggest you wait till someone that knows replies before you run off and possibly screw up your pool if this is the wrong way to go. I cannot see why it would be a bad additive, but lets wait and see.

[waterbear]

Biggest problem with calcium cabonate is the solubilty vs. calcium chloride. Calcium carbonate is also what we call "scale deposits" and if you have ever has them on your tile line you KNOW that they are hard to remove:eek: . Eggshells are about 95% calcium carbonate and marble is just about all calcium carbonate and they will not dissolve in normal pool water (at least I hope the marble doesn't or my spa spillover is going to have some MAJOR problems :eek:)."Lime: is actually either calcium carbonate or calcium oxide and calcium oxide would most likely play havoc with the pH

[kaybinster]

Biggest problem with calcium cabonate is the solubilty vs. calcium chloride. Calcium carbonate is also what we call "scale deposits" and if you have ever has them on your tile line you KNOW that they are hard to remove:eek:


Not sure I follow why this would be a problem, if you need calcium. The CaCO3 should dissociate and just result in CO2 off gasing assuming you don't add more than is needed.

[waterbear]

Not sure I follow why this would be a problem, if you need calcium. The CaCO3 should dissociate and just result in CO2 off gasing assuming you don't add more than is needed.
only in an acidic medium.

[mwsmith2]

Well, you *could* use lime, but it is somewhat of a pain the the butt to do. Adding lime to water results in "kalkwasser" which is used to maintain Ca levels in marine aquaria. However, to do this properly, you need to add the lime, mix and let the cloudy bits settle out. The cloudy material is the insoluble calcium carbonate. Then the clear, calcium rich portion is decanted off. This has to be done as soon as possible after it settles, because the kalkwasser will react with air to form more carbonates. However, I don't think it's worth the trouble, and for sure is not as potent as calcium chloride.

Generally, Ca only needs to be adjusted once or twice a season, unless you get a LOT of rain (several feet worth). The cost for CaCl is worth it in time savings.

Oh, and please don't use ice melter. God only knows what's in that stuff, as it isn't designed for swimming in. Is your health worth it to save a few cents?

Michael

[waterbear]

Oh, and please don't use ice melter. God only knows what's in that stuff, as it isn't designed for swimming in. Is your health worth it to save a few cents?

Michael What in it is 73-80% calcium chloride. If you look up most cacium increasers at the pool store they also say that they are calcium chloride in that same range. All I know is that is whay I was sold at the local Pinch a Penny pool store. Where is Ben when you need his knowledge? :)

[PaulE10]

Hi,
I'm still a little lost. I've been searching the forum for a solution to my low CH level ( 150, 22,000gal I.G. plaster). Adding lime seemed like a good ole Pool forum answer but the more I read, the less it sounded like a good idea. The ice melter seems to have an objection against it as well.
Is there an answer as to what to do? I just don't want to walk in to a pool store and get "pool stored".
I love the fact that we can use bleach, baking soda, Borax, etc. I have been following the forums advice very successfully for years so this is the first place I come to get answers. I've done repairs, fought algae, fix my CYA problems all very succesfully witht the info gotten here. Naturaly this is where I came to fix my CH problem. I figured I certianly wouldn't be the first with a CH problem.
I'll pay the pool stor price if that is the right thing to do but if there is a Pool solutions fix I'd love to try that first.

Thanks,

Paul

[mwsmith2]

I buy my CaCl at the pool store. I'd rather pay the little bit extra and know that I'm going to be going to dunk my most tender parts :) in something that's safe.

Michael

[waterbear]

I buy my CaCl at the pool store. I'd rather pay the little bit extra and know that I'm going to be going to dunk my most tender parts :) in something that's safe.

Michael
That's where I bought mine also and what they sold me was a bag of DowFlake! (This is NOT the pool store I work at part time!)

[PaulE10]

Thanks - I guess I'll will try to find some more info before making a move. The "fear factor" of dunking my sensitive parts in something unsafe makes for a good argument but "knowledge is power and can save you money" is pretty good as well.
Always looking to be smart and and not be "pool stored" but safety is not something to be comprimised.

Thanks,

Paul

[mwsmith2]

There's a .pdf of the stuff here:

http://www.dow.com/webapps/lit/litorder.asp?filepath=calcium/pdfs/noreg/173-01530.pdf&pdf=true

If I get a moment, I'll look up what the ASTM that they conform to is composed of. I think there's enough info there for me to see if it's a safe product. If you can find a MSDS on "pool type" CaCl, we can compare the two and see how they match up.

Michael

[DavidD]

Paul,

I noticed both Home Depot and Lowe's carries Calcium Increaser in 5 lb containers for around $7. Not real cheap but will keep you out of the pool store.....

[waterbear]

There's a .pdf of the stuff here:

http://www.dow.com/webapps/lit/litorder.asp?filepath=calcium/pdfs/noreg/173-01530.pdf&pdf=true

If I get a moment, I'll look up what the ASTM that they conform to is composed of. I think there's enough info there for me to see if it's a safe product. If you can find a MSDS on "pool type" CaCl, we can compare the two and see how they match up.

Michael check out this PDF a lot of info on calcium chloride
http://www.omri.org/calcium_chloride_final.pdf

[waterbear]

check out this PDF a lot of info on calcium chloride
http://www.omri.org/calcium_chloride_final.pdf





HERE IS THE INFO OFF OF THE DOW WEBSITE FOR POOL AND SPA APPLICATIONS:
http://www.dow.com/calcium/app/poolspa.htm

THEY LIST 2 PRODUCTS FOR THIS USE....
DOWFLAKE AND THEIR ANHYDROUS CALCIUM CHLORIDE MINI-PELLETS!

GUESS DOWFLAKE IS THE WINNER IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BUY IT AT A POOL STORE. I WOULD BET THAT MOST OF THE CALCIUM HARDNESS INCREASER SOLD IN POOL STORES IS JUST REPACKAGED DOWFLAKE!

[mwsmith2]

Cool, cool, that seals it for me. Now if I can only find that stuff. :)

Michael

[waterbear]

Cool, cool, that seals it for me. Now if I can only find that stuff. :)

Michael Try lowes or home depot! I've seen it at one or the other! btw, I just read the Dow pdf on their calcium products
http://www.dow.com/PublishedLiterature/dh_0450/09002f1380450f4d.pdf?filepath=calcium/pdfs/noreg/173-01534.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc
and it seems that :
"DOWFLAKE 77–80% process grade
calcium chloride meets or exceeds
Food Chemicals Codex (FCC IV)
monograph for calcium chloride
dihydrate and complies with FDA
Good Manufacturing Guidelines.
It also meets the American Water
Works Association (AWWA) standard
B-550 and is Kosher certified."
I guess that means it's pretty pure! Heck, it's even Kosher!:D(two of my great aunts used to be cooks in the "Borscht Belt" in the Catskills and I remember them using calcium chloride in the brine when making pickles! So did my mother! I think it was to keep them crisp)

[zelmo]

Since so many have been helpful I thought I should give an update.

Home Depot and Lowes didn't have any de-icer left, but a smaller hardware store had several brands. The only drawback (or so I thought) was that they were all pellets - no flake. I looked at Dow's website and decided to buy the PELADOW that the store had because it seemed to be DOWFLAKE in a different form. Anybody want to explain the difference between dihydrate and monohydrate?

My worry had been that the pellets would take longer to disolve and they did, but it was only 5 minutes. Worked like a charm for 1/3 the price of the pool stores product.

[PaulE10]

Paul,

I noticed both Home Depot and Lowe's carries Calcium Increaser in 5 lb containers for around $7. Not real cheap but will keep you out of the pool store.....


Thanks for the good info. I'll stop in and check it out.


Paul

[zelmo]

BTW - the PELADOW was $18 for 50 lbs.

[mizzouguy]

I just bought some in the pool section at Lowe's. $6.44 for a 4 pound container. I'm starting off with 24 pounds because my test kit is not showing any Calcium.


33k gallons, Aquarite, vinyl.

[jmcst25]

BTW -- Agway - carries the Calcium Chloride Flakes (77-80%) $10 for 50lbs (this is 20 cents a pound). I asked them about pool usage -- they indicated a local large water park / pool buys it by the pallet. I added it by mixing small batches in a bucket to disolve the flakes -- worked like a champ just a minute or so to disolve. Now I have some left over to melt ice this winter.


Agway also sells Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking Soda) $8 for 50lbs.

[cpoz06]

Stumbled across this discussion last nite and felt it necessary to add some
insite. I have held a public pool operators certificate for 10 years and i am appalled at the lack of understanding of the basics of pool chemistry on this site. The first thing that you missed is that lime is extremely CAUSTIC!!!, AKA alkaline! If you really want to destroy your systems this is a great first step.

What I see here is that you folks just want to back door your local pool store operator for a few bucks savings on a product that is one of the most consistent items in pool water balance.

If you cant manage an average size pool for between 7 and 10 dollars per
week working with a reputable pool store you need to get rid of the pool!

I regularly talk to several of the store owners in my area who have invested a large part of their lives to teach people to manage their pool, and are the first ones you turn to when you cant fix it by groping around here.

I wonder how some of you would feel if the customers that pay your daily wage started to figure out how not to pay you for th skill set you chose to earn a living!

[CarlD]

Before you start hurling accusations and launching attacks, it might be wise if you knew something about your targets. Many of the people you are attacking are quite knowledgeable about physical chemistry--more than me.

People ask ALL sorts of questions about alternate sources of chemicals--many ARE extremely dangerous if handled incorrectly--lime is no more dangerous than 30% Hydrochloric Acid (Muriatic Acid to you) which is the strongest acid on the pH scale--it etches glass!

Next people are not recommending lime--they are merely discussing it as possibility and what the pitfalls are--we've have similar discussions over the years of sulfuric acid, acetic acid (vinegar), gas chlorination, ozonation, etc.

Everyone here is FULLY aware that lime is alkaline and that so are the calcium compounds...Think that just may be why new plaster pools push pH up, eh??

As for your absurd accusation of just wanting "back door" your local pool store to save a few bucks, well, I have three things to say to that:
1) When I can get "it" far cheaper someplace else I say "too bad". I've seen pool stores sell 4# of a "total alkalinity raiser" for $12--for 12# that's $36. Then I walked into CostCo and found a 12# bag of the same stuff (called Arm&Hammer) for $3.50--one-TENTH the price. One store sells PolyQuat for $34/quart! You can usually find it for $12-$20. Maybe YOU like wasting your hard-earned money un-necessarily, but most of us don't.

2) When there's a pool store with a knowledgable, experienced staff, I WILL buy there-they deserve to be paid for their help. I won't pay absurdly inflated prices, but if I'm buying a solar cover, I'm happy to pay them another $50 for their trouble. However, I frequent 10 different pool stores and most of the staff don't know their ear from their elbow.

3) So, so many people come to us after having been "Pool-Stored"--sold a lot of expensive chemicals they not only don't need, but shouldn't even use---EVER!! So they pay too much for what they need, are sold stuff they don't need, and are even sold stuff that's BAD for their pools. They come to us in droves EVERY SINGLE DAY saying "I have a mess. I spent a fortune at the pool store, it didn't work, so they sold me ANOTHER fortune's worth of chemicals, and they didn't work either! WHAT DO I DO?????'" We tell them. It works. They can't believe it, they are SO happy and they become loyal members.

Now if you aren't one of these who see a pool owner in trouble as your kid's college fund, then you are the exception--and they are out there--we count some of them among our most active members.

But if you see that pool owner as your Christmas Club, I have not the slightest sympathy for you losing business.

I've never understood that idea that I should pay you more to do something I can do myself, unless it is more convenient FOR ME to do so.

BTW, if you work in the pool business, our forum rules demand that you have a signature line you use EVERY post that states that.

[waterbear]

Stumbled across this discussion last nite and felt it necessary to add some
insite. I have held a public pool operators certificate for 10 years and i am appalled at the lack of understanding of the basics of pool chemistry on this site. The first thing that you missed is that lime is extremely CAUSTIC!!!, AKA alkaline! If you really want to destroy your systems this is a great first step.

What I see here is that you folks just want to back door your local pool store operator for a few bucks savings on a product that is one of the most consistent items in pool water balance.

If you cant manage an average size pool for between 7 and 10 dollars per
week working with a reputable pool store you need to get rid of the pool!

I regularly talk to several of the store owners in my area who have invested a large part of their lives to teach people to manage their pool, and are the first ones you turn to when you cant fix it by groping around here.

I wonder how some of you would feel if the customers that pay your daily wage started to figure out how not to pay you for th skill set you chose to earn a living! First of all I probably have a better understanding than you do of the chemistry of pool water and if you care to debate me please start a thread in the 'china shop' section of the forum. The Administrator of this forum has even greater knowledge of the chemistry than I do!.
As far as the post about lime. If you read the replies it was answered! Lime is another name for calcium carbonate...also called chalk. You might know it as scale...you know, the stuff you have to scrape off with a pumice stone when you are cleaning one of the pools you service (or are you smart enough to use a mixture of pool soap and muriatic acid to do the job?) As far as being a caustic chemical....it is regularly used as a calcium additive in salt water reef aquariums. Once it is mixed with water it in a superstaturated solution it is called 'kalkwasser' (German for calcium water). If it was so caustic, as you put it, it would cetainly kill all the delicate livestock in a marine tank! I have been using it in my tanks for about 30 years now and also use calcium chloride so I know a bit about this!
As far as the neighborhood pool store I happen to work in one! There is more misinformation given to people in pool store and from product manufacturers than good advice!
As far as the topic of this thread, it concerns calcium. If you operate commercial pools I am sure that you know that calcium chloride is calcium chloride! Dow is one of the largest manufacturers of this chemical and on their website they have a section on pools and spa where they say that their DowFlake brand is what is used for pools. Dowflake is sold in large bags very cheaply to consumers as a de icer. It is exactly the same as the Dowflake that products companies buy in bulk and repackage to be sold in pool stores at inflated prices.....Ditto for Church and Dwight Co. sodium bicarbonate...It is cheaper to buy the Arm and Hammer branded baking soda then even their own Alkalinity First branded for swimming pools! Do you want to discuss sodium carbonate? How about sodium hypochlorite. Tell me what the difference is between 6% sodium hypo sold at a pool store (and yes, some of them DO sell 6%) as liquid chlorine or 6% sodium hypo sold at a grocery store as laundry bleach, other than price!

The fact that you have been a CPO for 10 years doesn't mean much. It means that you know that OTO is not allowed for testing chlorine and DPD or FAS-DPD is and you know how to fill out a fecal accident report. It means you have been given a very general overview on such topics as ORP controllers and had to do some calulations of pool volume and dosing of chems and that you learned a way to reduce carbonate hardness (you probably know it as Total Alkalinity) that does NOT work properly because it goes against known chemical principles of buffer systems. (Total alkalinity is just another name for the carbonic acid/bicarbonate/carbonate buffer system in the pool water that helps pH from drifting....Do you understand the chemisty of buffer systems?)
I suggest that you take some time and read through the forum..read through the sister website www.poolsolutions.com (http://www.poolsolutions.com) and learn what we are all about here before getting critical. You will find that this site teaches proper pool maintenance and that we have a lot of 'newbies' who ask questions that get addressed by more experiences users and also by industry professionals that participate on this site!

As far as your statement "I wonder how some of you would feel if the customers that pay your daily wage started to figure out how not to pay you for (sic)th skill set you chose to earn a living!"
I am in a very good position to answer that. I also have held Barber and Cosmetologist licenses for the past 30 years. Every day people are buying hair color, permenents, hair clippers, shaving cream and razors, makeup, manicuring impliments, etc. and using them at home! These definately had the potential to allow them 'not to pay me for (one of) the skill sets I chose to earn a living". My answer was to provide a level of expertise and service that they could not achieve on their own and I was very successful at that profession because of that. If more pool stores took that approach then maybe they wouldn't need to view naive customers as an unlimited money source and there would be more pools out there that did NOT have the amount of problems with water balance that seem to be far too commen amoung the average pool store customer! The answer to that is better education of pool industry personel and consumers....and that is one of the aims of this forum!

Oh, and by the way ....you misspelled 'insight'! INSITE is an acronym for Integrated Network System Interface Terminal Equipment.

[Dr. Spike]

cpoz06,



What I see here is that you folks just want to back door your local pool store operator for a few bucks savings on a product that is one of the most consistent items in pool water balance.

I disagree! I did NOT come here to 'back door' my local pool store. I came here seeking knowledge on maintaining my pool! I find that this place is FULL of knowledge. It helped me learn to maintain my pool easily and cost effectively.


If you cant manage an average size pool for between 7 and 10 dollars per
week working with a reputable pool store you need to get rid of the pool!

A bit harsh don't you think? Maybe it is the pool store that we should 'get rid of' if we can't do what you suggest. After all, it is that pool store that is telling us what to do and buy. Are they not?


I regularly talk to several of the store owners in my area who have invested a large part of their lives to teach people to manage their pool, and are the first ones you turn to when you cant fix it by groping around here.

Again, I disagree. From what I have seen here, it would look like this is the place to turn after the pool store couldn't fix it.


I wonder how some of you would feel if the customers that pay your daily wage started to figure out how not to pay you for th skill set you chose to earn a living!

Maybe find a new skill set? :):p

I don't really feel that bad if the local pool store, or any store for that matter, doesn't get all of my money. I don't work to give away my money just because I feel sorry for the guy down the road. They chose their profession, I didn't choose it for them. Besides, they do get some of my money. I buy parts from them.

In my chosen profession, if my customers found a better way to do what I provide for them, well, THEY just switched professions. :D Oh wait, my customers don't actually pay me. :)

[gordyjamz]

I have a question. I have hth droptest kit from walmart. When I do the calcium hardness test, it asks to put 5 drops of hardness indicator in 25 ml of pool water. It says that it should turn red. mine turns yellow. what does that mean? is it too low? too high? does it really matter considering i have a vinyl liner AG pool?

[CarlD]

I have a question. I have hth droptest kit from walmart. When I do the calcium hardness test, it asks to put 5 drops of hardness indicator in 25 ml of pool water. It says that it should turn red. mine turns yellow. what does that mean? is it too low? too high? does it really matter considering i have a vinyl liner AG pool?

Does it then turn blue when you add the drops of the re-agent?

I don't trust my memory on this, but I THINK it means there's something like copper or iron in your water as well--but that the test is still valid. With a vinyl pool any calcium setting from 0 to 500 is OK. Essentially, you don't have to worry about it. I check calcium 2 or 3 times a season, just to be sure.

[SoCalBoo]

"I wonder how some of you would feel if the customers that pay your daily wage started to figure out how not to pay you for th skill set you chose to earn a living!"

I am still laughing. So because we learn something, we aren't supposed to use it because someone else knows the same thing and we should continue to pay them to do it even though we know how...for a lot less money? So I should continue to pay a gardener $100/mo to mow my lawn even though I know how? So I should pay a plumber $150 to set up a new washer, even though I know how? So I should continue to pay a pool store exorbinate prices for the same (if not lesser - TA up v. arm and hammer baking soda anyone? pharmaceutical grade v. industrial grade?) chemicals? So I should continue to pay a pool service tech $100/mo for coming once a week when I can do it myself? Sorry, the logical totally escapes me.

I am an attorney by trade, and I have a number of people come in my doors who could handle their problems on their own with a little bit of info, or they can pay me $$$/hr. to do it for them. I even educate some on how to do it themselves for free. I don't pay for advertising and referrals are all word of mouth. It is amazing to see how many of those that do it themselves come back with more complicated issues down the road and then do pay me. It is a solid business model that pays dividends for most industries. Always putting your hand out for payment and whinning when people learn how to do things themselves efficiently and reasonably does little good and actually turns people off.

Of course, just my opinion.

I've run the chemical analysis given on this site by a buddy has a Ph.D. in chemistry and has set up and run labs for Yale, Harvard and UCSD, who also owns a pool. He says he uses the same principals himself as are expressed herein and that the chemistry is solid.

The pool chemical industry is just flat out ripping off consumers. To defend this practice is unconscionable. I see nothing redeemable about the practice in anyway.

Other than that, have a nice day! :D

[gordyjamz]

It turns a clear grey color, i don't thinks theres that much copper in the water since I have blonde hair that hasn't turned green yet