New Pool Questions

[md_rider]

Hi everyone,

We just had our new IG gunite pool plastered and filled on Monday. The guys came out today for the initial start-up and added 2 chlorine tablets, 6 lbs shock treatment, 5 gallons acid, 4 oz stabilizer/conditioner and 4 oz algecide. They gave me the test strips (how nice of them) so the first thing I did this afternoon was order the test kit from this site.

Now for the questions. I have been following this forum since we first decided on a pool and there were some very good threads explaining new pool start-up which have been lost. I have been searching and can't seem to find the information I was looking for (hopefully I didn't miss it).

Can someone post the recommended ranges for all the different parameters (CL, Ak, CA etc.)?

After reading all the great info on here, I am planning on going the bleach/borax/baking soda route. Is there a recommended procedure to follow? Such as what to get to the correct levels first?

I was told to brush the plaster twice a day for 10 days and keep the pump running 24hrs for 10 days. Also told not to use the heater, vacuum or Ray-Vac for the 10 days. Is this reasonable? Should I brush for a longer period or more than twice a day?

Thanks for all your help. This has been a great site.
Dave

[CarlD]

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. But I'm a vinyl liner.

New gunite pools need to cure so expect to add ALOT of muriatic acid to keep pH down.

You want to keep pH in the 7.3-7.8 range.
Calcium in the 200-400ppm range
Total Alkalinity in the 90 to 125 range (gunite limited-vinyl has a higher limit)
CYA/Stabilizer in the 30-50ppm range
Chlorine depends on your CYA range. for CYA=30-50 you want it Chlorine in the 3-6ppm. Higher is OK. Lower is not.

First: get a reading on these 5 things.

You NEED chlorine in ASAP to prevent algae. So shock it up to 15ppm, just to start.

Adjust your pH.
Then raise you T/A to 90-125. If you need to lower it, follow the thread on doing this.
If your CYA is low, you want to raise it--allow 2 -7 days for the stuff to dissolve in.
Then you can let chlorine levels drop to maint levels.

Once your CYA is where you want it, stop using tablets, powdered shock, and powdered chlorine and only use bleach or liquid chlorine to chlorinate and shock your pool.

And remember that for something like 6 weeks pH will rise steadily and you'll have to add Muriatic Acid to lower it.

[md_rider]

Thanks Carl, that is just what I was looking for. I'll have to wait for my test kit to check everything. Guess I can get a rough estimate with the test strips.

[md_rider]

I have another question after looking through some other threads. I understand when/how to use the bleach, acid, borax and baking soda. However, what about the Calcium Hardness? I saw (somewhere) that you should use calcium chloride to raise and anhydrous trisodium phosphate (?) to lower. Are these only available at a pool store?

Thanks again.

[Watermom]

I can't comment on where to buy them. But, after you get your calcium hardness reading - if you decide that it is too low and you need to raise it, you might want to consider using cal-hypo as your chlorine source for awhile. It will add chlorine and the needed calcium at the same time. Then, when your calcium hardness level is in range, you can switch to bleach. Just another option. Or, add calcium chloride directly and just start out with using bleach.

Watermom

[waterbear]

I have another question after looking through some other threads. I understand when/how to use the bleach, acid, borax and baking soda. However, what about the Calcium Hardness? I saw (somewhere) that you should use calcium chloride to raise and anhydrous trisodium phosphate (?) to lower. Are these only available at a pool store?

Thanks again.
Never heard of using anhydrous TSP to lower caacium harness. Can anyone verify? Also, I would be leary about adding phosphates to the pool since it is a favorite algae nutient at PPB levels! (I have kept Salt water aquariums for 30 years now!) I do know that phosphates will affect the crystaline structure of the calcium carbonate that precipitates out of solution with high phosphate levels causing Aragonite to precititate rather than Calcite. (Research I was involved in at the University of Miami School of Marine and Atmospheric Science many years ago) and that phosphates interfere with the amount that will precipitate under a given condition (you all know it as "Scaling") that has proved disasterous to our coral reefs before phosphates were banned from detergents but I don't see how it can lower the levels that are in the water.

Anyone point me in a direction so I can research this?

[md_rider]

I stopped at Walmart on my way home from work tonight and bought an HTH test kit to hold me over untul I get Ben's. Also bout some bleach. baking soda and borax. I tested the Chlorine, pH, Alk, Calcium Hardness and CYA. The results? No reading on any of the tests so I am low on everything. I did add 4 more pounds of shock as per Carl's suggestion to get the Chlorine level up first. Any suggestions of what to do next? I made a mistake in my first post about what was added yesterday by the pool guys. They added 4 lbs of stabilizer (not 4 oz) and 4 oz of stain protectant. I didn't state the size before but it is a 30000 gallon gunite/plaster pool.

Dave

[SJohnson]

Make sure there was no copper in that algaecide, a little late now, but I'm crossing my fingers for you that there wasn't . . . You may need a titration test to see those high levels of chlorine, as well.

SJ

[CarlD]

No need to add calcium to a vinyl pool...ever. Unless, of course, you feel the need to be charitable to your local pool store and buy useless stuff to keep them in business.

As mentioned, a good way to add calcium is by using Cal-Hypo to chlorinate. Look for 63% or more effective Chlorine--you won't find it in HTH products anymore--they are less than 50%-- but some of the pool stores private label it. Like Sun Pools in NJ here has a private label 63% Cal-hypo.

If you can STILL find the WalMart HTH 5-way kit, GREAT! It was the VW Beetle of good test kits--$15 gets you most of the tests you need, only the chlorine test is limited to 5ppm max. But, with the CarlD ShotGlass method you can get readings to 15 or 20ppm. Simply mix a shot glass of pool water with a shot glass of steam-distilled water and you double the scale (to 10ppm). with 2 shots of distilled to 1 pool you triple it, etc. but you lose accuracy.

Unfortunately, Arch Chems seems to have decided that such a useful kit is too much information in a home-owner's hands and is now pushing "6-way" test strips. I haven't seen the 5-way in the local WalMarts in 2 years--and it was the only reason I go to Wally-world.

[duraleigh]

Hi, Dave,

Lot's of good advice above.

Also, waterbear makes a good point about TSP. I read somewhere it could be used to lower CH as well. When I posted that info, Ben made a VERY CLEAR POINT not to use TSP because algae loves it sooooo much.

Keep reading and asking questions. You're on your way!

Dave S.

[md_rider]

Carl: The kit I got was the HTH 5 way test kit. It was $12.87 at Wal-Mart. Seems like a decent kit. After adding the shock last night, I measured the chlorine level this morning and it was reading about 5ppm (just using the quick test strip method, had to get the pool brushed before heading to work).

Should I start trying to raise the pH and TA along with the chlorine? I am a little confused about the pH reading being so low. I thought the pH should rise as the plaster cures. Or is the 5 gallons of acid originally added doing its job?

Thanks everyone for your inputs. I've only had water for 5 days and you all have already been a big help.

[waterbear]

No need to add calcium to a vinyl pool...ever. Unless, of course, you feel the need to be charitable to your local pool store and buy useless stuff to keep them in business.
There might be under certain conditions such as if you have very soft water and you have a heater. (my fill water has 0ppm CH) but it's not something to lose a lot of sleep over.
As mentioned, a good way to add calcium is by using Cal-Hypo to chlorinate. Look for 63% or more effective Chlorine--you won't find it in HTH products anymore--they are less than 50%-- but some of the pool stores private label it. Like Sun Pools in NJ here has a private label 63% Cal-hypo.
Good point!
If you can STILL find the WalMart HTH 5-way kit, GREAT! It was the VW Beetle of good test kits--$15 gets you most of the tests you need, only the chlorine test is limited to 5ppm max. But, with the CarlD ShotGlass method you can get readings to 15 or 20ppm. Simply mix a shot glass of pool water with a shot glass of steam-distilled water and you double the scale (to 10ppm). with 2 shots of distilled to 1 pool you triple it, etc. but you lose accuracy.
My local walmart (N. FL.) is stocked full of them. bought one about 2 months ago just to check it out. It certainly is better than test strips but I would still recommend getting a decent kit like Ben's or Taylor's or LaMotte's. Much easier to use and read on the tests and they will also test FC which the walmart (Aquachem) won't since it is OTO based. Oh yeah, it cost me $16.95!:mad:
Unfortunately, Arch Chems seems to have decided that such a useful kit is too much information in a home-owner's hands and is now pushing "6-way" test strips. I haven't seen the 5-way in the local WalMarts in 2 years--and it was the only reason I go to Wally-world.
CarlD, I have a question about the 'shot glass method'. Is that 'shaked or stirred'?:rolleyes: (yes, I once worked as a bartender in college):D

[KurtV]

MD, I'd be hesitant to adjust calcium hardness and alkalinity as your builder may be doing a high-acid startup on your pool. Depending on the finish (pebble, plain plaster, exposed quartz, etc.) there may be specific manufacturers requirements that you can muck up (the DiamondBrite high-acid startup, for example, requires a TA of zero). You don't want to void any warranty you might have (and some contractors will use any excuse, no matter how bogus, to do just that). I recommend that you talk to your builder and or plasterer before doing much of anything with the water chemistry.

[CarlD]

Not bad advice to check with the builder so you don't violate the warranty.

However, Gunite pools should keep a calcium level of 200-400--no more or less, and a T/A of 80 or 90 to 125. You don't want to be out of that range.

If pH is low, you want it to be above 6.9...Unless there's something the builder insists on, but I'm not familiar enough with the startup chemistry of gunite/plaster pools. The calcium leeching out of the new walls raises pH. That's why Tri-Chlor tabs are great for new gunite pools--they lower pH and fight the tendency of pH to rise in the new pool. And they add CYA (stabilizer) which you need--assuming the builder didn't dump a ton of CYA in to start. If he didn't the tabs are great because they add CYA slowly, but keep a constant chlorine level in the mean time via floater or inline chlorinator. When CYA hits your target, and pH is under control, then you can rely on bleach or an SWG. If calcium is low, you'll need to add it seperately.

Cal-Hypo is good for new gunite pools if calcium is low as it will raise the calcium level. In that case, you'll need to add muriatic acid for pH and CYA to get to the right stabilizer level as necessary.

Shaken or stirred? Why that depends on what you mix it in! But use it ONLY for the Chlorine test, not the others.

If you can find a separate FAS-DPD test kit (Leslie's sometimes has them for $20) you are all set. However, while the 5-way kit is a bargain, it just still isn't as good as Ben's kit--and not just for the chlorine tests.

[mwsmith2]

I have a question about the 'shot glass method'. Is that 'shaked or stirred'?

I know you are joking around, but if you shake your sample, you will reduce the Alk, because you are aerating the water and driving off CO2. It will also change your pH somewhat. Betcha didn't expect that! :cool:

Michael

[KurtV]

Carl said: "However, Gunite pools should keep a calcium level of 200-400--no more or less, and a T/A of 80 or 90 to 125. You don't want to be out of that range."

Carl, At the risk of sounding like a broken record, that's not necessarily true for new pools; especially with regard to alkalinity in high-acid start-ups of exposed aggregate/quartz finishes. In those cases you want the water to eat some of the plaster (which will also increase your calcium hardness, I think).

[PoolDoc]

The *RIGHT* way to start up, or cure, plaster pools . . .

. . . is something I wish I knew, but I don't.:rolleyes:

There are multiple methods, all of which have (as best I can tell) 'worked' some of the time, and all of which seem also to have 'failed' some of the time.

This is an area of huge dispute in the pool industry, with some confusing research of varying quality being brought into play. Everybody who's studying this -- and plaster is one of the few areas of pool construction and operation that is being seriously studied in public -- has an axe to grind, and knows what they really, REALLY WANT to find. Some of them are still trustworthy, I think, but it makes it tough to fit all the bits of research together.

The bottom line?

I do NOT know the best way to start up plaster pools. There are plenty of people who are entirely sure that THEY do know, but the evidence is too confusing, and to contradictory to warrant any such confidence. As is said of other disputes, this is one where's there more heat than light!:mad:

There are a few things that seem to be held by all, or at least held by some and rejected by none:

When starting or 'curing' a newly plastered pool . . .
+ Brush a lot, and don't let stuff build up.
+ Avoid high alkalinity (> 160 ppm)
+ Avoid metals, even if you plan to use a ionizer later.
+ Avoid adding lots of salt, even if you plan to use a salt chlorinator later.

Beyond that, you probably had best go with what your contractor requires of you, in order to maintain your warranty on his work.

One suggestion that I'd make is that you get -- demand, if necessary -- all the conditions he expects, in order to maintain your warranty. Then, make a log sheet and DOCUMENT your compliance with his requirements. This won't prevent all problems, but it should help prevent, or at least minimize, some of the many disputes over whether the problem was caused by the pool owners failure to maintain pool chemistry.

Ben

[waterbear]

I know you are joking around, but if you shake your sample, you will reduce the Alk, because you are aerating the water and driving off CO2. It will also change your pH somewhat. Betcha didn't expect that! :cool:

Michael actually, I KNEW that. was just being a smart---! Shouldn't have much effect on a Cl test however. I'll go back to my dark corner now!;)

[CarlD]

I know you are joking around, but if you shake your sample, you will reduce the Alk, because you are aerating the water and driving off CO2. It will also change your pH somewhat. Betcha didn't expect that! :cool:

Michael

Nope. Didn't expect it. Didn't care either--still don't 'cuz it don't matter. :p

You ONLY use the shot-glass method for testing chlorine, not for testing Alk or pH. Or, for that matter, CYA, Ch, or TDS (a fav piece of BS pool stores test).

Actually, I also use the shot glass method for drinking old rum, like St.James 1979--but I leave out the distilled water and (of course) the pool water!:D

(and shaken, not stirred, has to do with the ice. If you shake it, you cool the drink down faster with less dilution from the ice than if you stir it. A stirred drink will be more watery and not as cold--and I didn't even have to pretend to be "Bond, James Bond" to figure that out!)

[CarlD]

Carl said: "However, Gunite pools should keep a calcium level of 200-400--no more or less, and a T/A of 80 or 90 to 125. You don't want to be out of that range."

Carl, At the risk of sounding like a broken record, that's not necessarily true for new pools; especially with regard to alkalinity in high-acid start-ups of exposed aggregate/quartz finishes. In those cases you want the water to eat some of the plaster (which will also increase your calcium hardness, I think).

I would defer to the builder to avoid voiding the warranty, and I am not an expert on plaster pools--Ben is FAR more knowledgable but these are the general rules of thumb. You seem to be as well.

[KurtV]

Far from an expert; I just hired a bad pool builder so I had to keep checking up on the right way to do things vs. his way.

[md_rider]

Well, I re-checked everything this morning. Here are the results:

Cl - 3
pH - 7.2
TA - 20
CH - 210
CYA - did not really register

Seems like things are starting to come together. I guess it's not bad after 1 week of water.

I added 2 more Chlorine pucks to the skimmer, the first 2 were just about gone. I figure I will wait a few more days before I try and raise the TA, let things settle out more. Seem reasonable?

[KurtV]

md rider,
You should probably check with your builder or the manufacturer of your plaster on how long you're supposed to keep your pool in the "high-acid" state before adjusting the alkalinity. At least for DiamondBrite, high-acid essentially means zero alkalinity.

[md_rider]

Kurtv: We just have regular white plaster. The builder never mentioned anything about a "high-acid" start-up. Just said to keep an eye on the pH because of the plaster curing and add acid as necessary. I will check to make sure. Thanks.

[md_rider]

I checked the water again this morning. I have a question. The Calcium Hardness was 210 a couple days ago. When I measured today, the solution did not turn red when adding the first drops, just turned a pale yellow. Does anyone know what this means? The CL, Alk and pH were all in the good range. Didn't check CYA again, ran out of reagent.

Thanks Again!

[sunofthebeach]

The same thing happens to me with the Walmart 5 way test kit. I think there is something in the pool water that throws off the results and gives that pale yellow color.

Test some tap water and the test will work correctly, so its not the test.

I have not really been able to figure it out and I have seen a couple of threads on this on the old board.

[waterbear]

The same thing happens to me with the Walmart 5 way test kit. I think there is something in the pool water that throws off the results and gives that pale yellow color.

Test some tap water and the test will work correctly, so its not the test.

I have not really been able to figure it out and I have seen a couple of threads on this on the old board. check out this thread
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=131

the walmart kit is a bit different. I have one also and sometimes get that pale yellow color. I beleive the instructions say to put 2 drops of the indicator in the water. Try putting as many as 10 drops in and I think you will find it will work. I suspect that the problem is either metals interfering with the test (they can be pre-chelated out as per the thread I posted above) or some other interference (pH maybe?) I almost believe that the walmart kit is testing total alkalinity and not calcium alkalinity since the test sample is not made very alkaline first to remove the magnesium interference, but that is just a guess on my part.

[md_rider]

Thanks, I'll give that a try tomorrow.

Can't wait to be able to turn the heater on. It was near 80 degrees today, but the water temp is still at 59. A little too cold for me.