Nobody knows! Help Is it phosphates, water to hard.......

[meme2]

Good morning.

I have a 15X30 above ground pool. I have had this pool for 6 years with no trouble, this year when we opened we need to add a lot of well water since that I have not been able to clear the water up. Looks like it has milk in it. Clear for about 2 inches and then you can see little white particles floating. I have a cartilage filter and it seems to be filtering the water with lots of force and catching the particles. The filter is very slimy and white. Ok so I have been told overload of phosphate, so we treated. Nothing happened.

We have flocced the pool and nothing happened. All the levels seem to be normal. I also have had the chlorine level above normal and nothing is happening. Could the water be to hard?

Would that make the water cloudy? Help!

[PoolDoc]

________________________________________

I'm sorry; you've been "pool-stored" in a big way!

Step-by-step; taking what you've told me:

1. Phosphate levels NEVER, EVER cause white cloudy water.
Congratulations! You now know for certain that your pool store guys are are either liars or idiots.
(High phosphates CAN enable -- but not cause -- algae. But algae is not white.)

2. The visible particles are probably a result of the floc. Using floc is a very uncertain process. It can help, but it often goes badly.
But what you MUST understand is that the WORSE your pool does, the MORE chemicals the pool store can sell you. They have -- literally -- no incentive whatever to help you 'do it right'. Why? If you 'do it right' you will NOT be using their services much!

3. Because you KNOW that your pool store is useless -- either dishonest or incompetent -- your ONLY option is to learn to do it yourself.
(For what it's worth, MOST pool stores seem to be either dishonest or incompetent. There ARE some good ones, but the only way to you find them is if you know enough to tell if they are giving good advice, but then, at that point, you no longer need them!)

________________________________________

So, where to start?

1. You MUST decide that you are going to fight your way through a fairly steep learning curve. I can help, but not if you give up before you start. I can promise you that -- once you 'get the hang of it' it is very easy and much cheaper.

2. The fact that you are on well-water is a wild card. Some well water is nearly impossible to manage simply. The fact that your pool is white rather than orange is a hopeful sign that it won't be too hard.

3. You MUST have a basic test kit. Unfortunately, the Walmart in Gloucester doesn't have a decent one in stock. For now, get some test strips or simple drops pH / chlorine tester.

4. You MUST have a COMPLETE test kit. This especially true with well water. The kit is an Amazon only item.

5. You MUST have some basic chems: chlorine PLUS something to raise and lower the pH level.

6. You MUST STOP buying pool store 'goop'. Many -- maybe most -- of the chemicals pool stores sell to 'solve' your problems, actually make them worse. One of the reasons to buy 'grocery store' and 'hardware store' chem is NOT that they are cheaper or better, but that they are not MIXED with other 'goop'! For example, every SINGLE chlorine product under the "Clorox' or 'Arm & Hammer' label is mixed with goop, as are most pool store brands.

________________________________________

If you are ready to take control of your OWN pool, go to Walmart (sorry, looks like it's a 30 mile round-trip?) and get

1. 5 gallons of Pool bleach (https://www.walmart.com/ip/48938023) (to chlorinate, without side-effects)
2. 1 5lb bottle of pH Down (https://www.walmart.com/ip/41466041) (to LOWER pH)
3. 3 boxes of 20 Mule Team Borax (https://www.walmart.com/ip/20850525) (to RAISE ph, without side-effects)
4. Extra filter cartridges, if they have ones that fit your pool.
5. Some sort of test kit.
[Quantities based on the assumption of 11,000 gallons ]

+ Then go home, test BOTH your pool water AND your fill water. (If you fill with treated and untreated water, test BOTH)
+ If chlorine is below 2 ppm, add 1/2 gallon of bleach.
+ Clean your filter. Make sure your pump is on 24/7
+ Order a K-2006 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004BGF7TI/poolbooks/) test kit from Amazon
+ Report back here with (a) test results, (b) a list of everything added in the last 2 weeks, (3) the make and type of pool AND filter AND pump.
+ I'll give you further instructions based on test results.

________________________________________

To clean up, you may need new cartridges AND some way to slow down your water flow: most pumps for above-ground pools are TOO big, and force dirt THROUGH the cartridge. But without more information, I can't help you.

Good luck!

PS. The good news is, once everything is under control -- in the future -- you will be able to manage your own pool easily and fairly cheaply!

________________________________________

[PoolDoc]

You posted a quote of your question . . . but nothing more. I assume that was an accident? In any case, I removed it.

[meme2]

ok gonna try again
pool evolution advantage pool
Agua 2.0 pump with simple salt ionizer
120 sq in black diamond filter
15X30

well water test: no chlorine and between 7.6-8.0 PH

Pool water test:
PH 8.0
Chlorine 1.1
Hardness high
free chlorine low
total alkalinity 120
stabilizer 50

2week in pool:
6lbs od stabilizer
50lbs calcium cloride
16 gals of chlorine
1gal of muriatic acid
gonna send this to see if you get it

[PoolDoc]

Posts by new users have to be moderated (approved) before they can be seen; it's the only way I can keep forum spammers out!


2week in pool:
6lbs od stabilizer
50lbs calcium chloride <= There's the problem!
16 gals of chlorine
1gal of muriatic acid

Calcium + high pH = massive cloudiness! Ironically, on a vinyl pool, you NEVER needed that calcium in the first place!

So in other words, the pool store first CAUSED the problem, by selling you calcium, then made it worse by selling you FLOC, and now wants to sell you even more stuff.

Ad this point, you need to add bleach every night to maintain chlorine, and add acid (see link in my blue signature about buying and handling muriatic acid safely) to maintain pH below 7.8.

You have way, WAY too much calcium in your pool, and need to get some of it out. And, at this point there's about ZERO chance of having it ready for well, today (the 4th of July). I'm not sure how important it is to get your pool back in service quickly. Draining and refilling would be the fastest, but ONLY IF you can fill with decent water. (Dunno what your well water is like).

Otherwise, you need to keep filtering to remove all the solids. If you have a valve between the pump and filter, throttling to SLOW water flow will INCREASE the effectiveness of your filter. If your pump is a 2 HP pump (and not a "2.0" model number) adding a valve to slow flow will REALLY help. A 2HP pump is way, WAY too big for a 120sft cartridge. Also, getting a second cartridge will help, so you can swap them constantly, till the water is clean.

By the way, you do NOT want to lower the pH too much -- just below 8.0. The reason is, you want to filter out the excess calcium, not re-dissolve it, which can happen if you lower the pH too much.

Also, presuming the pool store recommended all these things . . . you REALLY need to stay away from them. Recommending that much calcium is unlikely to be an accident; it's more likely DELIBERATELY predatory salesmanship!

[meme2]

ok, so this morning I can see the pool bottom which I have not been able to before.

So I went to Walmart last night and got what you told me too. So use that to lower the ph a little. also was able to put the pump on slow. I'm relying on you no pool store. I don't want to drain it.

Thank You!

[PoolDoc]

Clean your filter frequently. It damages cartridges to have a big pump run against them when they are stopped up.

Ideally, you should have at least two cartridges so you can rotate them.

Longer term, you'll need the K-2006 kit (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004BGF7TI/poolbooks/) + an OTO/phenol red kit (like the HTH 6-way). Normally, you'll only use the OTO/phenol red, but you have to have the K2006 and use it periodically, to keep things on track.

It is much, MUCH easier to keep a pool on track, than it is to clean-up when it 'goes off the rails'. The upside is, doing it yourself -- the RIGHT way -- is much, much cheaper than using pool stores, so you'll fairly quickly save-back the money spent on test kits.

[meme2]

ok, I have slowed the pump down the white stuff fell to bottom and I have vacuumed on waste, water has cleared up.

My question to you is what is the weekly maintenance plan?

+ My PH is still a little high do I need to bring down or leave? (8.0)
+ I assume that the ionizer will still work with the chemicals ill be using.
+ So just need chlorine and ?
+ Leave the pump on low always?

Lots of questions sorry just want to do it right, with what I was using I only shocked once a week and put clearifier in every 2 weeks and the ionizer did the algae.

[PoolDoc]

Hm-mh. What you are describing is the floc working the way it many 'floccing agents' SHOULD work.

Did the label or the pool guy not tell you to turn the pump off and let things 'settle', after adding floc?

Anyhow, glad it is clearing up. Is the water clear?



+ My PH is still a little high do I need to bring down or leave? (8.0)

Your pH should be between 7.2 & 7.8.
+ I assume that the ionizer will still work with the chemicals ill be using.

Not necessarily. You need to post your pool info: gallons, pool type, filter type, pump type, ionizer type.
+ So just need chlorine and ?

Chlorine, pH control, stabilizer, for sure. Other stuff depending on info I don't have yet.
+ Leave the pump on low always?

Unless you have a specific reason to put it on high, yes. Again, I need more info about the pool.

[meme2]

yes the water is clear. you should have my pool info in the post back up on the 4th of July. The pool has been off for days at a time after the floc was put in at least a month ago.
15X30 (12,500. gal)?
Aqua 2.0 hp pump with ionizer (simple salt)
120sq in. black diamond filter

[PoolDoc]

I can find t he Black Diamond filter information, but the description "Aqua 2.0 hp pump with ionizer" doesn't bring up anything specific unless this is it:

https://www.thepoolfactory.com/aquapro-2-hp-2-speed-purflow-above-ground-pool-pump-w-tefc-motor.html

Is your pump a 2 speed pump? If so, you should always, ALWAYS run on 2-speed unless you have a specific need to do otherwise. You will get better filtration, better life out of your cartridge AND save substantially on electrical costs.

Ionizers aren't really compatible with chlorination. Copper stains, but copper staining can be avoided IF there's no chlorination AND the pH is kept low-ish. Add chlorine, and let the pH go up and you get stains.

BUT . . . many ionizers don't stain, because they don't actually work. (ie, they don't deliver any copper).

[meme2]

yes that is the pump that we have. I bought the pool from East Cost Leisure in New Port News Va. Told us that the product that we was using the latest and greatest with no chlorination. I start the year out with a Prime (Simple Salt water system) I can't tell you whats in it doesn't have a ingredient label. After I prime it I only have to shock once a week (Simple Blue) Simple salt water system Shimmer, which has calcium hypochlorite 47.6%, sodium tetraborate pentahydrate 20.0% and other ingredients 32.4%, then every 2 weeks put in (simple Blue) simple salt water system Vivid concentrated natural enzyme clarifier it doesn't have an ingredient label either. When I opened the pool this year and fill the pool with our well water more then usual (pumped a lot off of cover over winter) they told us that it was could because of the Phospates, thats when every thing went down hill. NO body there would tell you the same thing to do. I think we over dosed the pool with chemicals (just my opinion) so I decided after much research and finding you I would try doing it with your help. Don't want to depend on them NO more, So if I need to change something that I'm using I will. If I need to do away with the ionizer and use a liquid I will. So chlorine Im not use to but Im will to change if need be. I don't want stains either I have read about them. I appreciate your help!

[PoolDoc]

OK.

I had to do some research.

It looks like the pump and filter may be from http://ecoaquapro.com/, and your 'sanitation system' is from http://mysimplesalt.com/, which looks like a re-branded and re-labeled version of "Permasalt" copper based system, discussed here http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php/16701

Let's operate with the assumption that the pump and filter are OK. But the MySimpleSalt is NOT.

Stains can be a problem any time copper is involved. Fortunately, the shocking and floccing process you have ALREADY gone through has probably removed most, or even all of the copper.

Let me give you a list of steps to follow . . . and then some questions I need you to answer.

1. Keep your pump on LOW speed, running 24/7

2. Test your water, post the result, and TELL ME WHAT YOU USED TO TEST!

3. Add 1/4 gallon of 10% Walmart pool bleach in the evening any evening the chlorine is below 2 ppm

4. Take pictures of your pump, your pool, the simply salt system and the LABELS of the shipper product. I particularly need to see the EPA Est # listings. You can email them to poolforum@gmail.com, text them to (423) 300-6560, or use Imgur to post them in this thread (instructions: http://pool9.net/postpix/ )

5. Tell me if you are on a tight budget or not. The easiest and fastest way to clean up and get things running smoothly will require you to buy some stuff now (mostly from Amazon) . . . and save later. But if your budget is tight, you can put in some extra elbow grease, take a little more risk of stains and algae, and spend less now. For example, removing phosphates WILL make things easier . . . later. But it costs $$'s now.

6. Tell me what you know about your well water. Well water is often -- but not always -- a problem for pools. It depends on what's in the water. Do you have a softener or water treatment system? Is the pool filled via that system, or through a bypass? Does the well water have iron or manganese or sulfur in it?

[PoolDoc]

7. Oops. One more thing -- disconnect the power cord to the 'ionizer' or 'mineral' unit.

[meme2]

ok I will get back to you this afternoon. Have to get all this together for you. Thank you!

[meme2]

ok I'm back, water test I used OTO drops for chlorine 1.0-1.5, phenol red for PH with was 8. I also have a 6 way test strip kit hardness 500, chlorine low, free chlorine ideal, ph high 7.8, total alkalinity high 160, stabilizer ok 50.
I will text you the pictures of the pool, pump and simple salt system.
You asked about the budget, well don't want to spend and arm and leg but want to do what I need to do. Question, did I mess the pool up by mixing different chemicals? Not me but getting different pool people to test water and suggest stuff. Only asking.
I don't have anything to test for phosphates. we have had to add water the last couple of days due to hot weather and all the vacuuming. Yes we have well water thats softened with water softener. I don't know about the manganese and sulfur, I would say a little bit of iron but I don't have iron built up in anything toilet or sink. I can by pass the softner and run straight well water. I have never had any staining with the ionizer (maybe it didn't work?).
The pool today was the best its been blue and clear. We have vacuumed 4 times on waste.
ok hope I have given you all the information you needed and Im gonna send the pictures now.
I have gotten the Walmart pool chlorine and ph down and also gotten the borax. oh ionizer is unplugged!

[PoolDoc]

OK. Let's cautiously assume the test values you have are fairly close to accurate.

1. With a CYA = 50, your chlorine needs to be higher. Start adding 1/2 gallon doses in the evening of the 10% bleach. Back off a bit once your chlorine level starts holding above 3 ppm.

2. Your pH is too high, especially with calcium levels that may exceed 500 ppm. We'll need to lower those . . . but that's for later. Use 1/4 bottle (~1.3 lbs) doses of the dry acid or "pH down" from Walmart. Add 1 dose each evening till your pH is 7.6 or a little lower. Do NOT let the acid and bleach mix. You can add the acid to the skimmer; do NOT add the bleach to the skimmer! Best option? Get a bucket, fill it 3/4 with pool water, add the acid to the bucket, stir with a plastic stick or spoon till dissolved, then pour into the pool!

3. Avoid filling if you can. but if you need to fill, add a dose of bleach and then begin adding water SLOWLY through the skimmer.

4. Go ahead and order [/B] the K-2006 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004BGF7TI/poolbooks/) test kit from Amazon.

5. Order an extra cartridge filter for your pool filter.

6. Let's postpone looking at phosphates till later UNLESS you have, or expect, algae problems. Right now, the (possibly) high calcium level may well interfere with phosphate control efforts. We need trustworthy test results for the K2006 before taking other steps.

7. I got pictures of everything EXCEPT the "Shimmer" label and EPA Est. numbers on that label.

________________________________________

Regarding causes . . .

It appears to me, that your current problems resulted from the overdose of calcium, followed by attempts to clean up the calcium carbonate cloud that (inevitably!) resulted. Whoever is responsible for that 50# dose of calcium chloride triggered the problem. Whoever gave you the floc, made it worse.

. . . but I am NOT absolutely certain.

________________________________________

+ 10% Pool bleach (https://www.walmart.com/ip/48938023) (to chlorinate, without side-effects)
+ 5lb bottle of pH Down (https://www.walmart.com/ip/41466041) (to LOWER pH)
+ 20 Mule Team Borax (https://www.walmart.com/ip/20850525) (to RAISE ph, without side-effects)
+ K-2006 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004BGF7TI/poolbooks/) test kit from Amazon

________________________________________

[PoolDoc]

Got your "Shimmer" pics; thanks. Unfortunately, couldn't ID the materials used to dilute the cal hypo, except for the borax.

Lemme know when you have test results, or if you have any acute problem pop up. Keep swimming as long as the pH is between 7 and 8, the chlorine > 2 ppm, and the water clear.

[meme2]

ok have ordered the K-2006 from Amazon. I did PH down last night and the chlorine level was 3. Didn't have time this morning but will test tonight. I haven't used any borax yet, was I suppose too?

[PoolDoc]

I haven't used any borax yet, was I suppose too?

Borax RAISES pH, so no, not needed at present. Just keep on with the daily doses of pH Down, till your pH reaches 7.6 or lower. And keep dosing with chlorine. Once you get the kit, and have a set of results, post them. But as long as the pH is below 7.6, and the chlorine is > 2 ppm, and the water is clear . . . you should be fine, for now.

By the way, you might want to take a look at these videos on using the K-2006: http://pool9.net/tk-guide/ . I think most people find the kit easier, if they've seen it done, before doing it themselves.

[meme2]

ok, did the test. That was intense. here is the results:
4ppm free chlorine
4ppm combine chlorine
7.4 ph
110ppm alkalinity
400ppm calcium hardness
and cyanic acid didn't even register.
I did watch the video several times before I did the test to make sure it was done properly.
The pool is beautiful right now, but I do have a add chlorine every other day to make it register.
ok I will wait to hear from you. Thanks!!

[PoolDoc]

The way the K-2006 works, your results really are:

4 ppm free chlorine (FC)
4 ppm total chlorine (TC)
7.4 pH
110 ppm alkalinity (Alk)
400 ppm calcium hardness (CH)
0 ppm cyanuric acid (CYA)

TC - FC = CC (combined chlorine), or in your case, 4 - 4 = 0 CC, which is good.

Your chlorine, pH, and alkalinity are fine.

The low cyanuric acid will make managing the pool harder than needed. The high calcium is NOT a problem UNLESS you have a heater, a salt water chlorine generator (SWCG) OR let your pH get high. It does mean you do NOT want to use chlorine in the form of cal hypo (calcium hypochlorite), since that adds even MORE calcium.

What I'd recommend at this point is:

Get some bagged dichlor (55% chlorine, 50% stabilizer). If you have access to a Sams Club, their box with 24 x 1# bags of dichlor (https://www.samsclub.com/sams/prod14250499.ip) is the best price and material. Otherwise, you'll need to order from Amazon. Currently (July 2018), this (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003BPNHV0/poolbooks/) is the best option -- and nearly as cheap as Sams Club -- but you can check this one (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B01BI6KGU8/poolbooks/), and this one (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0051BJAN6/poolbooks/), too. Be sure to note that the last option is 12#, not 24#. The good thing about the bagged dichlor is that it seems to keep OK till the next year -- unlike every OTHER form of chlorine.

Each bag of dichlor will add 5.5 ppm of chlorine, and 5 ppm of stabilizer to your pool. You can use a bag instead of bleach each evening. Once you've added 6 - 8 bags, you should have a decent CYA level, and your chlorine consumption will drop.

Basically, it looks like you are ready for a routine:

1. Add chlorine with pool bleach (1/2 gallon dose), normally, but use dichlor (1 bag dose) if your stabilizer is low.
2. RAISE your pH, if it gets to 7.2, using 20 Mule Team borax (1 box per dose).
3. LOWER your pH, if it gets to 7.8, using dry acid (pH Plus, etc) (2 cups per dose).
4. Do NOT use ANYTHING else, unless you REALLY need to do so . . . and you probably don't!

If you haven't gotten one already, I would recommend that you get the HTH 6-way kit in addition to the K2006. You can get it from from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B01JLY4KEM/poolbooks/) or sometimes from Walmart (https://www.walmart.com/ip/101959375) . The OTO/phenol red kit is much faster and easier to use than the K2006 . . . and is good enough for everyday use AFTER you've established a routine with the K-2006. The alkalinity and CYA test in the HTH are the SAME as the one in the K-2006.

Also, if you haven't gotten a spare cartridge, I would recommend that you do so. Filtration is very, VERY important, and it is easier to keep a clean cartridge in the filter, if you can swap them out, and soak the old one before washing it.

Other than that, it sounds like you are close to having everything under things in control.

It IS possible that you'll have problems with mustard algae, later in the season. In some pools, it can grow, even when everything is correct. There is a fairly easy way to resolve this, but it involves learning some more stuff. And there's no reason to worry about it yet, since mustard algae is NOT a problem on all pools.

Good luck!

[meme2]

ok, so yesterday [Sunday] when I check the pool in the morning it looked a little cloudy? Not sparkling clear. Sunday is busy with church and stuff so didn't do anything that morning so checked the chlorine level in the evening. It didn't register so I put in liquid chlorine (10%) from Wal mart. This morning little better, so whats up? Did nothing else to it.


To the response of the dichlor, do I still need to use the liquid chlorine also? So never use stabilizer? Sorry with the questions but I don't want to mess it up!

[PoolDoc]

Bleach/dichlor is an either/or thing. I can't think of a reason why you'd need both at the same time, though maybe there could be some weird situation when it would be a good idea.

Normally, you should use dichlor to chlorinate AND add stabilizer. Use bleach once your stabilizer is adequate. Use dichlor later, on an as-needed basis, to add stabilizer . . . and chlorinate at the same time.

If you prefer, you can use granular stabilizer. But it's hard to dissolve, and often costs more -- even at 100% concentration -- than the Sam's dichlor. (Though the In-the-Swim dichlor on Amazon is currently nearly as cheap!)

By the way -- and I need to say this more -- never, NEVER mix pool chemicals. They do fine together once dissolved in the pool. But in full concentrated form, outside the pool? Not so much! Plain stabilizer is particularly bad that way, and will react rather nastily with a number of things, if you are careless outside the pool.

[meme2]

ok..., its me again. Im having trouble with some yellow algae on bottom of pool and some on the sides. Easy to clean just use brush or vacuum and it goes but what do I use to stop it. Only using chlorine from Wal Mart.

[PoolDoc]

1. Raise your chlorine levels to 2x whatever you've been keeping them at. Use bleach or 'liquid pool chlorine', rather than any stabilized form of chlorine (including almost ALL bagged chlorine!)

2. Get a K2006 kit (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004BGF7TI/poolbooks/), test your water, and report the results. CYA (stabilizer) level is particularly significant, and one of the values strips measure very poorly.

[meme2]

ok, heres the results:
6.4 FC
.6 CC
7.4 PH
70 total alkalinity
CYA doesn't register
350ppm hardness
have had trouble most of the season keeping stabilizer up, but pool is beautiful, just spots on side and bottom.

Thank you!

[PoolDoc]

OK, That doesn't completely make sense.

Did the R0013 + pool water remain clear? Or was it so cloudy that the CYA "didn't register"?

Clear ==> CYA < 20 ppm. // Super cloudy ==> CYA > 100 ppm

If the CYA test mix was super cloudy,
mix 1/4 pool water with 3/4 tap water.
(Use a shot glass, 1/8 cup measure, or even tablespoon measure.)
Add 1 unit pool water and then 3 units of tap water to a glass & stir
Retest mixture
Multiply result x4 for actual CYA reading.

If it was clear, tell me whether you measure in the AM or PM, and whether it was sunny on the day you tested.

[meme2]

ok, if I did it right it was 55ppm. just a few minutes ago (this morning )with sun out.
The water was cloudy.

[PoolDoc]

CYA = ~60 ppm

Algae chlorine dose = 25% of CYA, or 15 ppm!

Try keeping your chlorine between 10 ppm and 20 ppm for the next week. BRUSH the pool completely at least 2x, a couple of days apart.

You CAN swim: 30 minute pediatric "bleach baths" (Google for it if you like) are 50 - 100 ppm!

But do NOT wear new expensive 'fashion' swimsuits. Competition suits (Speedo, Tyr, Nike, etc) should be fine. Otherwise, wear older suits.

Good luck!