Water clarity problem

[keastman]

My appologies in advance for this long post.

I'm not quite sure where this belongs but I'll start it here and see what the moderators think. I have a 23Kgal IG pool in NE Florida, pebble finished bottom, with SWG, it is surrounded by large live Oaks and no screen enclosure. There is an elevated spa also. This is my first spring in the house and I'm overwhelmed by the pool maintenance with the daily onslaught of leaves, oak flowers, and pollen. I posted last fall about it being difficult to keep the water completely clear because of the tree debris. It seems I'm over pumped and under filtered. (I'm starting a post on that in the equipment section for guidance). 2hp pump and 120sf catridge filter, bottom cleaning jets are also in this pool

The pool is always a little cloudy but when the pollen started hitting it, the water seemed green and very cloudy. I decided to try to treat for algae in case that was contributing to the problem. My chems are Cl 12, CYA 40, pH 7.4, Salt 3.1, alk 100, hardness OK, I'm not able to determine free chlorine at home but at one point I checked it at the pool store and with a TC of 5.7, it was 5.2. That was after a brief episode of trying to shock it. The Pool place also said I had high phosphates, likely due to organic matter from the tree debris. I didn't bother trying to striaghten that out from advice I recieved here last year.

So, for the last 7 days, I've kept the Cl at 12 with 10% liquid Cl (it's cheaper here than bleach) , manually vaccumed the pool daily, and cleaned the filter (120sf cartridge) every other day. I also hand skim it 3-4 times a day and empty the FULL skimmer 3-4 times a day. Yes, there is that much leaves and flowers hitting the surface. It does't take much Cl daily to keep the level at 12, maybe a quart or less. The water has changed from green to a light cloudy color. There is definitely sediment because it gets stirred up when I vaccum. The cartridge is full of flowering debris and the sediment that washes out has changed from a bright green to a darker green brown since holding the chlorine high.

The cartrige is the same that was there when we bought the house a year ago and it looks a bit worn. I've hesitated to replace it since I'm probably going to go replace the filter with a larger unit and didn't want to add to the expense. At this point, if you think it will help to put in a new cartridge, I'd do it. I'm just getting sick of the cloudy pool and probably won't get to the new filter system for at least a month or so.

So, can anyone make some suggestions of where to go from here. Higher Cl for a longer period, try a new cartrige, address the phosphates, fill the pool in with dirt? Thanks for reading this to the end.

[CarlD]

Your filter should pick up that fine stuff unless it's been damaged.

You know, you CAN go to a different type of filter if you want. Sand never needs replacement and gets better as it gets older and dirtier, but allows the biggest particles through. DE gives the finest filtering but you need to add DE powder regularly and there's some year-end maintenance.

Whatever you get, get a filter with a max capacity GREATER than your pump's output. Too big a filter for the pump is fine--too small is a problem.

[waterbear]

I noticed you said you had in in floor cleaning system. My understanding is that they create a lot of backpressure and therefore requre a bigger pump. When I was getting quotes on having my pool built (before I decided to go with fiberglass) I contemplated the in floor cleaning systems and the pumps that were in the quotes were on the large side compared to the filter. A cardridge filter will filter almost as small a particle as a DE filter and will actually filter better once it gets a bit dirty. You might want to inspect your cartridge for damage that might be allowing the dirt to get back into you pool. The high level of organics in your water are certainly adding to your problem. You need to get them out ASAP on a regular basis. I don't know if a robotic or presure side cleaner can be used with an in floor cleaner but if it can it might be an option.
Also, you did not specify what brand of SWG you have but most of the manufacturers recommend keeping the CYA between 60-80 ppm with a SWG.
I'm in St. Augustine also (North Beach) and my pool (6600 gal fiberglass IG with 300 gal raised spillover spa and SWG) always has a layer of pollen sitting on it now but the skimmer takes care of it, I only vacumn once every week or two and run my Cl at 3 or 4 ppm. Other than the pollen on the surface my water is crystal clear. I do try to skim daily, however.

[keastman]

I've been thinking of different filter types when I go to a bigger one, but this week of cleaning the cartridge may have convinced me that it would be better to stay with a cartridge. There is so much leaf and tree flowers ending up in the filter that I'm thinking I'd be loosing a lot of water backflushing a sand or DE filter all the time while the Oaks are flowering and dropping their leaves for March and April. At least, I'm assuming that all that debris would clog them up pretty fast and necessitate backflushing.

Waterbear, looks like we are practically neighbors, I'm in St. Aug Beach.

Thanks for your input. I may try letting the Cl, go back to normal levels and try a new cartrige until I put in a bigger filter.

Kevin

[keastman]

I had to go away for 4 days and came home to a real mess as it rained and the majority of oak flowers and pollens were washed out of the trees into my pool. A couple hours of cleaning got me back to where I was. Still cloudy but not much green. I shot the Cl back to 12, replaced the cartridge with a new one and am doing the vacuum and filter cleaning daily. The new cartridge seems to be helping, hopefully that will do the trick and help clear things up.

I do have a question on phosphates. The pool store said my level was high, likely due to the constant invasion of the tree debris that I have. I've read that this will contribute to algae growth. With that in mind, does it make sense to buy their stuff to reduce phophates or will that only contribute to my porblems.

Thanks for you help.

[waterbear]

If the levels are high a lanthanum based product will actually precipitate the phosphates out of your system. Their biggest drawback is that they will cloud the water if added directly to the pool and can cause your filter pressure to jump up, requiring backwashing or cleaning, if added to the skimmer. IMHO, If you don't have an algae problem and you keep on top of your free chlorine levels I wouldn't loose too much sleep over it. If you start to get algae blooms then you MIGHT want to try it as a POSSIBLE treatment solution. (Emphasis because chlorine and brushing are your best first defense.) Phospates ARE a favorite algae food but if you have a lot of tree debris and get an algae problem I would also look at your nitrate levels which are ALSO a favorite algae food.

[duraleigh]

Hi, Kevin,

I think you're tiptoeing up to your algae issue instead of kicking it in the butt.:)

I would run the Cl straight up to 15-18ppm and not let it drop below 15 for at least 48 hours or until you noticed some distinct improvement in your water clarity.

If we go back to your first post, you have CYA of about 40. If we use the now world-renowned "best guess" chart, you never go to breakpoint chlorination. (shock). In theory, if you bring your Cl up to 12 or so, it IMMEDIATELY starts drifting down so you never had a chance of really "shocking" your pool.

As a result, I think you have been languishing in an area of high Cl but not high enough to really clear your pool. My bet is your CC has never been to zero and that can only be done by getting your Cl above 15.

I know I'm saying the same thing over and over but go back to your first post:


I'm not able to determine free chlorine at home but at one point I checked it at the pool store and with a TC of 5.7, it was 5.2. That was after a brief episode of trying to shock it.
so that means that you never really shocked your pool...your CC was still .5.

Kick that algae right in it's green (and gray) rear end!!! Run your CL up above breakpoint (at least 18ppm) and then make sure it stays above 15ppm. I believe you get some very dramatic results although it may take a day or two. Let us know how you do:) :)

Dave S.

Ken, I would not address any other issue until you actually shock your pool. Then, if the water issue still exists, it will be easier to resolve. You NEED a good test kit. I think your issue will be solved with about $15.00 of Cl and little effort.....the kit would've told you that. (okay, okay,....I'll get off the soapbox!! Sorry.)

[keastman]

Thanks for the responses, I'll add a little BAM and kick it up a notch for a few days and see what happens Waterbear, I'd be willing to bet I've spoke to you at Ace once or twice. Not sure I trust your chem machine results all the time though. Which one do you work at? I ran into someone that seemed pretty knowledgable last Friday at the A1A store, perhaps it was you. I was looking for a filter for Hayward 1200 and had some pump questions.

You guessed it on the test kit, it's a Wally world 5 way kit and I do the dilution method for the Cl levels above 5 and use the Bleach Calc program. I need to get one of Ben's.

This is getting off the Algae topic, but in consideration of a new larger filter. I have reservations going with DE or Sand because of the extreme amount of debris I have to clean out of the cartridge filter this time of year. Seems easier to spray all that crap off a cartridge than to backwash it all out of sand or DE. Maybe I'm thinking wrong but it seems that all that debris would really clog up a sand or DE system.

[duraleigh]

Hi, again, Kevin...(sorry I called you Ken)

From your response, I got the impression you were lukewarm about bringing your Cl to 18pp. I'm gonna' keep tryin' to convince you of the importance:) :)

This is from an article written by folks at North Carolina State and the whole thing follows Ben's recomendations very, very closely.


Breakpoint Chlorination is the process by which combined chlorine and some organics are "burned out" of the pool by addition of large amounts of chlorine. The reaction of chlorine with ammonia to form chloramines occurs in several stages with free chlorine consumed at each stage. If enough chlorine is added to the water the total chlorine residual will rise to a point that forces the reaction of chlorine with ammonia to go rapidly to completion. Compounds of nitrogen and chlorine are released from the water and the apparent residual chlorine decreases. The point at which the chlorine residual suddenly drops is called the breakpoint. When enough chlorine is added to pass the breakpoint, combined chlorine compounds disappear, eye irritation potential and chlorine odors disappear, and the chlorine remaining in the water is all in the free state.

12ppm will not do this for you...18ppm will...go get 'em!!:) :)

Dave S.

[keastman]

Dave, I do fully intend to do as you suggested, just said it the way Emeryl would. Thanks. I'll let you know of my future success.

[keastman]

Well, finally the leaves, pollen, and tree flower debris has let up and my efforts have resulted in a clear pool. At least as clear as I think I'll get it considering the overhanging trees.

Thanks for the help. A new cartridge, mucho chlorine, along with daily vacuuming and cartridge cleaning have done the trick. Now my salt cell has crapped out so it looks like it will be liquid Cl until I decide if I'm going with a new unit or just replacing the cell.

Kevin

[duraleigh]

Hi, Kevin,

Thanks for the follow-up. It's always nice to hear things work.....not perfectly, but it sounds like your pool is satisfactory, at least.

Dave S.

[keastman]

Well, a few weeks of bliss and a clear pool, now the green haze is sneaking up again. I thought with the oak tree crap almost done, I had it made in the shade so to speak. My SWG sys is down and I've been maintaining Cl of 3-5 with a daily shot of liquid chlorine and also cut the run time on the pump back to 10 hours. I'm surprised it retruned with those levels of Cl.

I've got a question. The times I take my water in to be tested, it always tests high for phosphates. They told me it's because of all of the organic debris. I'm wondering if this is making it tough on keeping the pool clear of algae, perhaps it's time to bite the bullet and buy their stuff to treat it. Any comment on it from you folks?

So, it's back to lots of chlorine and 24/7 on the pump for a few days. Hopefully when I get all the parts for my SWG set up, that will help keep things on a more even keel.

Thanks, for your suggestions.

Kevin

[waterbear]

As far as I know the only way to deal with high nitrate levels is to dilute (drain and refill). Your undedited post said nitrates, not phosphates. Either one can be a 'limiting factor' in algae blooms. Phospates are treatable. If both are present then treating for phospahtes might not help as the remaining nitrates will supply food for the algae. If there are no nitrates and only phosphates then it might be useful. Phospate treatments are a bit of a pain, however.

[keastman]

WB, it was phosphates, not nitrates I made a mistake in the first posting of it. . How much of a pain is dealing with phosphates and any way of telling if it is a factor in my problem other than treating and seeing what happens. Kevin

[waterbear]

I can tell you of my own experience with the NaturalChemistry line of products. I had to use them when my pool was first built. They work well but did cloud the pool for about a week (with a cartridge they recommend putting it in the pool and not in the skimmer since it will cause the pressure to shoot up) and then I had to do a filter cleaning after to remove the phosphates that precipitated out. I only needed one treatment to get to 0 ppm. I was adding the weekly maintenance dose until I ran out and haven't put any in lately but I am still at 0 ppm phosphate. I suspect that my phosphate problem came from something in the construction phase. IF you have high phosphates and an algae problem that doesn't respond to other treatments (chlorine and polyquat). then IMHO, it is worth a shot. If it works then you have your answer. If it doesn't then you only have to spend money on it once.

edit: my face is red from the typos and spelling errors in the original post. My only defense is I was at work (NOT the Pool Store) when I posted and got called away and just saved it before I had a chance to reread it and correct it. I admint that I am a trrible typist!