So sad, a leak in my just finished pool ...???

[ValAZ]

18x35 foot diver - built it myself

Started up the pool Saturday night after it filled, and this afternoon I had 4 tiny squirts in one area coming from between the top of the tile and the deck. It's in the return line. I'm assuming I *just* have that section of concrete jacked out and fix the pipes?

I'm wondering when this might have happened, and have a question. After the shotcrete was done the workers cut the pipes. Is this usual for the shotcrete sub to do? I wasn't expecting them to do it, thought the cleanup crew did it at the end, but having no experience, I didn't question it. I'm wondering if they might have damaged the pipes and cut them to cover it? I'm hoping not - that would be mean.

I'm thinking this is where the GC ends up eating some profit - and that I'll just have to pay the deck sub and plumber to fix this, and that no warranty will cover this. Does that sound right?

My last question is this: If I run the pump with everything open - waterfall, bubbler, aerator and returns - the leak is just a couple of spots dripping. Until I get this fixed, do I run the pump like this to keep the pool clean, or am I risking further damage to tile or new plaster by doing so?

Valerie

[KurtV]

I had such a leak in the pool we just had completed in December. I believe that the GC made the deck sub pay for the leak detection and plumbing work as he apparently drove a frame stake through the return pipe (they were able to tunnel under the deck to get to the leak).

[ValAZ]

How soon did they get it fixed from the time it started, and did you run it till they did? I shocked it to be sure chlorine was high enough, and hope to get by running it as little as possible. I'd hate to lose it, but am not sure if it is ok to be running it with a leak.

[MarkC]

If you can shut off the flow to that return you should be OK until you get it fixed. You can isolate the problem by shutting off the valve to that return and putting a rubber stopper in the return line like what you do during winterizing so that water pressure from being below the water level at that return does not force your pool water through the leaking area.

[ValAZ]

I have a looped return system, so I can't turn off that specific return ... and I'm not sure I can even turn off the returns at all. I have valves for everything else, skimmers, aerator, bubbler and foundtain, but not for the returns. I must have been given the "plumbing for dummies" set up? If she can't turn it off, she can't break it?

[KurtV]

Val, Mine was a huge leak in a 2 in. return line so no, I could not run the pool. It took about three weeks to get the leak detection people out as they were booked pretty solid. It took another couple of weeks to get the leak repaired.

I was able to temporarily reroute my negative edge plumbing through the filter so I was at least getting filtering in the interim.

[MarkC]

Now that I think of it I can't shut off my returns either. My bad.

[waste]

ValAZ, posted below is the response I tried to send you to a private message you sent me.


Just had my IG pool done a week ago, and there's a leak in one of the return lines.

First question: do you know of any reason why a shotcrete sub would need to cut the caps off of the lines which are under pressure? Mine did - and now that I've got this leak, I suspect they did to cover up that they punctured or cracked a line.

Second question: I am concerned about running the pump and water getting behind the tiles and down into the plaster, which is 7 days old. Would this cause damage? I am not running it, and it is going to be 4 - 7 days before I get all of this fixed. In the meantime, I am brushing the pool even though it's not getting filtered.

Valerie[/QUOTE]

Valerie, I'm never too busy to help the members of the poolforum - it's the least I can do as repayment for all that I've learned. Unfortunately, I have zero experience with the 'cut the pipes after the shell is shot' school of plumbing which is why I didn't coment when I saw your post on the forum. I see you plan on doing a little digging this weekend - a good idea because whoever fixes the leak will probably be charging you 'time and materials' and the digging will take the most time. If you discover the source of the leak and think you might want to tackle it yourself, I and others from the forum will gladly walk you through the process.
As for running ther filter, I think you're best off not running until the leak is fixed, lest you etch the new plaster (it needs to be kept wet, but doesn't like direct pressure while it's curing). Keep up with the brushing, unfortunately you can't filter out the liberated 'stuff'. As an idea, I don't know how feasable it would be for you, some pool service companies (and hotels with pools) have portable vacuums (pump and filter on a hand truck)- might it be possible to get a service company out to do one vacuuming with one of these(or rent a hotel's unit for the afternoon)? - Just a thought :)
Anyway, thanks for the confidence in me - sorry I couldn't live up to it ;(
- Ted A/K/A: Waste

[ValAZ]

We dug as far back as we could, but the deck there is 4 feet wide and we are just not going to be able to get to it. We'll have to knock out a section of the deck and then see what we've got. Boo hoo - temps are in the 80's now and we want to swim! The deck sub said they'll cover it if it looks like they did it, and told me to backcharge the shotcrete sub if it looks like their mistake. Just hate it when you get that *odd* feeling about something, don't act on it, and then later find out you should have, ya know? I should have capped those pipes back up under pressure again ... I'll know on the next pool! = /

[waste]

Val, it's not your fault! Don't flog yourself over it. Are you sure you can't dig it out yourself? It's your pool and you came here to not have to rely on the pool companies. If you can't do it, please post what they propose, I'm still trying to save you a few $.

[ValAZ]

My 6'2" son had half his body under the deck ... still haven't hit the pipes yet. I opened one of the returns closest to get some water in the pipes to see if he could trace the leak and found a sliver of cracked pipe and a small chunk of gunite. Grrr.

The deck sub called and said to hammer out the 4'x5' section of deck and then replace it woud be $800. More than I thought, but he said it was only materials and labor, no profit?

I'm not sure just how much dirt we can remove from under this chunk of concrete before we'll be endangering someone's life. :(

[waste]

Valerie, you are on the right track, you've found the pipe AND the cracked section. Keep excavating around the pipe to determine the extent of the damage (letting a little water into the pipe was a very good idea) As long as you keep the excavation down to ~2' wide, you shouldn't have to worry about the deck comming down on you (or your son). It seems to me that you are on the edge of solving this problem yourself (though, whoever is responsible for the broken line in the first place should be doing the work). Please keep us informed as to the progress

- Waste

[KurtV]

Val, We had to go about 5 feet under the deck/steps and it wasn't a problem. I vote that you keep digging (especially since I'm not doing the digging).

You can hire a leak detection company to pinpoint the leak; that might save you some effort. They'll use sound detection equipment and seem to be generally well regarded. Look up American leak detection in your local phone book (they're a franchise type outfit and about the only game in town as I understand it).

Here's a picture of our tunnel:
http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL1140/3957745/9095336/126307946.jpg

[ValAZ]

the pool light conduit and the return pipe. Got at least a nice 4" crack in the pipe.

So I guess the battle begins. I KNOW the owner of this company is just going to go ballistic on me when I call him to get him to cover this. Trouble is, I want MY plumber and MY decking sub to fix this. I don't think that's unreasonable, right?

Any advice on how to handle this when I call in the a.m. would be appreciated.

Val

[duraleigh]

Hi, Val,

In 27 years of business, I ended up coming back to these two ideas when I had to resolve a sticky issue (and try to keep the lawyers out):

1. Put yourself on the other side of the argument. Listen to your words from the opponent's side. Are you asking for something reasonable?:)

2. Financial leverage is always the King in any negotiation...do you have any?:) :)


Dave S.

[stever13]

the pool light conduit and the return pipe. Got at least a nice 4" crack in the pipe.

So I guess the battle begins. I KNOW the owner of this company is just going to go ballistic on me when I call him to get him to cover this. Trouble is, I want MY plumber and MY decking sub to fix this. I don't think that's unreasonable, right?

Any advice on how to handle this when I call in the a.m. would be appreciated.

Val
How did shotcrete rebar get between the conduit and the return? Seem odd if the rebar was (or should have been) there first. Oh well s#$t happens. I had a pipe leak near the completion on my pool when my clean up crew drove their tractor over the pipes. Luckily is was not under a deck. My plumber fixed it no charge. It was an easy fix and I could have done it myself.

If I were you, see if your plumber will take care of it no charge. If not, fix it yourself. Work a deal with your deck sub and tell him you will use him for a later project on your home or reccomend him to neighbors and tell him to do the job for a much more reasonable amount. I only paid $4.50 a square foot for my deck with acrylic topping. Good luck. You still made out big time as owner/builder. I know I did.

[ValAZ]

1. No financial pull on this one. Shotcrete sub had been paid in full for months.

2. The piece of rebar is from the form they put around the edge of the pool when they shot it. AND .... they cut the caps off the pipes! This is the thing that is just killing me. Why would they have done that? I tried calling them just to get an answer to that, and they couldn't give me an answer. All the pics I seen from other pools on the web have the pipes capped and under pressure right up until the interior is put in. Only thing I can think of is that they were trying to cover their mistake and hope the owner/builder wouldn't know.

I definately can't fix this myself - the return pipe is up against the shotcrete wall on one side and has the electrical conduit on the other. I'll have my plumber come back in.

The thing is, after sitting and looking at it, which is easy to do because I am so sad about all of this that I DO just SIT and look at it ....= ( I do think the shotcrete guys banged it in there when putting in their forms, cause it is wedged in there good, however ... if someone wanted to get it out, like maybe a deck sub so the top couple of inches wouldn't be in the concrete and tried prying it back and forth - I can see how that would crack the pipe. But had the pipes been under pressure, the water would have leaked and I'd have seen it - which leads me back to the shotcrete guys and *why* did they cut my caps off? If I could get a good answer from them, I'd chalk it up to live and learn and let it go ... which I guess it sounds like I'll end up doing.

Waaaaahhhh!

[ValAZ]

How do I fix this? The plumber "can't get out till next Wednesday, maybe Friday" - and after going out and chipping away at the gunite near the pipes, I think I might be able to do this. Trouble is, I'm not sure what's the best fix. Using couplings and just putting in a new section? The workspace is tight, I might be able to do that....

any ideas?

Val

[stever13]

How do I fix this? The plumber "can't get out till next Wednesday, maybe Friday" - and after going out and chipping away at the gunite near the pipes, I think I might be able to do this. Trouble is, I'm not sure what's the best fix. Using couplings and just putting in a new section? The workspace is tight, I might be able to do that....

any ideas?

Val
Cut out the bad section with a hacksaw. Two couplings and straight piece in the middle. That is all there is to it. I don't know if you got my PM but I would be willing to have a look and give you a hand if you want. Send me an e-mail if interested. steverwrx@hotmail.com owner/builder in Phoenix

[waste]

Cut out the bad section with a hacksaw. Two couplings and straight piece in the middle. That is all there is to it. I don't know if you got my PM but I would be willing to have a look and give you a hand if you want. Send me an e-mail if interested. steverwrx@hotmail.com owner/builder in Phoenix
I know that 2 couplings and a peice of pipe could fix it, but... how would you get the pipe into the second coupling? When dealing with a 'fixed' ridged pipe, you don't have the room for the 1&1/4" slip fitting. 'No hub couplings' -A/K/A Fernco's- would work, but I usually use 4 90's, do you have a better way? ( If you could tell me it, it would be a real help) - Thanx

[stever13]

I know that 2 couplings and a peice of pipe could fix it, but... how would you get the pipe into the second coupling? When dealing with a 'fixed' ridged pipe, you don't have the room for the 1&1/4" slip fitting. 'No hub couplings' -A/K/A Fernco's- would work, but I usually use 4 90's, do you have a better way? ( If you could tell me it, it would be a real help) - Thanx
Cut your replacement pipe about 1/8" shorter than the pipe your cut out. Use a SLOW set pvc cement. Apply liberally onto all pipes and slip fitting couplers. Place couplers on both ends of replacement pipe and slip into place and then move couplers to the desired spots. The trick is the slow set pvc. Hardens in minutes instead of seconds. I am no professional. But this technique has worked for me.

[waste]

Cut your replacement pipe about 1/8" shorter than the pipe your cut out. Use a SLOW set pvc cement. Apply liberally onto all pipes and slip fitting couplers. Place couplers on both ends of replacement pipe and slip into place and then move couplers to the desired spots. The trick is the slow set pvc. Hardens in minutes instead of seconds. I am no professional. But this technique has worked for me.

It took me a few minutes, but I finally got what you were saying. The coupling you are talking about is a true 'no hub coupling' (the ones I was thinking of were black rubber sleeves, held in place and made water tight by clamps.) . I've never used one, nor do I know where to find one. I've only used 'hubbed' ( they have the 1/8" 'pipe stopper' in the middle of them) couplings - whence the 1&1/4" requirement in my last post. Is it sch 40 PVC?
For some reason, I am leery of those beasts (though I have NO reason to think that they won't hold or do the job) - call me a conservitive ;)

[duraleigh]

Hey, Stever,

I'm with "waste". I understand what you're saying but where do you find those couplings? I've never seen them. Even if you "burred out" the pipe stopper of a standard coupling, the coupling is tapered into the center and the pipes would not slide freely within the coupling.

I am familiar with a "repair fitting" which is about 7" long and does slide freely over the pipe. It is threaded and that allows both sides of this "repair fitting" to clamp down tightly onto the existing pipe. It's about 8-10 bucks at home depot.

All that said, it sounds like you're talking about something different. I can't quite picture how it makes a good pvc bond without the coupling being tapered.

And "waste", if you're saying you're leery of those rubber connectors with the O-clamps on each end, you have good reason to be. They are very, very marginal for suction side connectors and I wouldn't consider one for a pressure connection of any type. Drain pipes is the only suitable application, IMHO

Dave S.

[ValAZ]

We're dealing with everything y'all are talking about right now.

We had lots of family coming over for Easter, wanting to swim - so I decided to do something about that pipe myself. Dad came over and figured there was no way we'd be able to get a splice into the return pipe using two couplings, so he put in a compression coupling. Trouble is the crack was longer than the comp coupling, so he added a length of pipe a couple of inches long using a coupling, then the compression thing. We didn't use glue on anything, figuring when the plumber *finally* makes it out, he can do whatever he needs to to make this thing right. ("I can be there next Wednesday ... well, maybe next Friday .... call me on Wednesday ...") So far, no leaks from the temp fix and I am able to run the pump/filter now so I got the stabilizer in and the water looks fantastic now. Family had a ball on Easter day. :)

When Hector shows up to fix the leak permanently, I'll let you know what he does.

We've got about 5' of deck that was taken up to get to this, so we uncovered that much length of pipe. Trouble is the crack started about 6 inches from where the shotcrete surrounds the light - so naturally, the pipe is in the shotcrete and doesn't allow for any give in the pipe to pull it up. We'll see what the plumber does with it.

Good news on the shotcrete sub, though. He couldn't believe his crew cut the return pipes after shooting the pool, and I assured him they did - I have the pictures. He said there was absolutely no way they'd do that ... I told him the foreman was probably already on some kind of "probation" for his job and figured he'd be fired if he called the cracked pipe in ... so figured he had nothing to lose. Anyway, Bill the owner told me that since the concrete section was only 4'x6' he'd cover the costs - fix it and send him the bill. Yeah, sending him the bill and him sending me money are two separate things, but we'll see. He was nice about it, at least.

I'll keep you updated! Thanks for the encouragement and info.

Valerie