ARGHHHHH!!! Cloudy water

[geneskaf]

We're at our wits end trying to get this silly pool swimmable! History is:
The pool was not used last year AND it wasn't covered. It's a 28x16 above ground pool with a sand filter. It was shocked and algicide was used. There have been several trips to the pool store and a considerable amount of money later....we replaced the sand (it had been about 8 years) and that really did help. We have vacuumed out the debris from the bottom of the pool (with the new leaf vacuum!) and we have been brushing the pool bottom and stirring up little particles of what I presume is left over dead algae. The pump is running 24/7. We've spent about $400 plus on chemicals and it is still cloudy. It's blue but cloudy with visibility of about 6 inches. I have not gone back to the pool store because everytime I do its $100 and nothing changes. Last night we bought bags of shock and some bleach. Last night it was shocked with two bags and 2 gallons of bleach. This morning the reading is:

HARDNESS 400
FREE CHLORINE IN BETWEEN THE READINGS OF 3/5 AND 5/10
PH 7.2
ALKALINITY 180
CYA 0-30

We have been unable to keep the chlorine level to register in the pool. Are we not putting enough in at a time or is our chemistry messing it up? We are at our wits end at what to do to clear up the water. We are vacuuming it every night and stirring it up in the morning to filter very small particles.

Help!!!!!

Thanks,
Kathy

[mbar]

You will have to get more specific about your cya levels. If you have 0, then your chlorine will get eaten by the sunlight. If you have 30, You will have to shock up to 15ppms and keep it there till your chlorine holds overnight. It sounds like you are fighting left over algae. If you are unable to hold chlorine in your pool with a cya of 30, then there is something that is using up the chlorine.

here is the "best guess chart"

Stabilizer . . . . . . Min. FC . . . . Max FC . . . 'Shock' FC
=> 0 ppm . . . . . . . 1 ppm . . . . . 3 ppm . . . . 10 ppm
=> 10 - 20 ppm . . . . 2 ppm . . . . . 5 ppm . . . . 12 ppm
=> 30 - 50 ppm . . . . 3 ppm . . . . . 6 ppm . . . . 15 ppm
=> 60 - 90 ppm . . . . 5 ppm . . . . . 10 ppm . . .. 20 ppm
=> 100 - 200 ppm . . . 8 ppm . . . . . 15 ppm . . .. 25 ppm



Your alkalinity and calcium are too high. In a vinyl pool you don't really need calcium. High calcium along with high alkalinity can make a pool cloudy - You may want to drain down 1/3, and refill.

[JohnT]

We have been unable to keep the chlorine level to register in the pool. Are we not putting enough in at a time or is our chemistry messing it up? We are at our wits end at what to do to clear up the water. We are vacuuming it every night and stirring it up in the morning to filter very small particles.

Help!!!!!

Thanks,
Kathy

When you have a very dirty or algae infested pool, it will consume chlorine like crazy. What you probably need to do is test and add more often. 3 times a day is acceptable, but more is better. Test and add what's needed. I'd steer clear of the powdered shock, especially with your 400 hardness, and just use bleach or liquid shock. Get your chlorine to 15 and add as needed to keep it there for a few days. You need a good test kit to monitor this.

[dstarr62]

Kathy, I have been going through the exact same situation you have, AG pool, uncovered all winter, $$$ on chemicals and algecides, left with blue cloudy pool with no visibility. Nothing worked until I got my chlorine up to shock level. 72 hours later crystal clear pool! Since Saturday evening when I first started following all the information in this forum, I have put nothing but bleach in my pool to achieve these results.

Follow the advice of the experts on this forum, use the tools available ("best guess" chart and bleach calc program) and get that chlorine level up to shock level and keep it there, you'll see results!

Don

P.S. First thing I did was get the 5 way drops kit at Wal-Mart to make sure my readings were as accurate as possible until I can get a really good kit. Worth every penny!

[geneskaf]

Thanks everybody. I'm feeling more hopeful just having someone to talk to about this. :) We put 2 gallons of bleach in this morning and when I left the house, the chlorine was above 10. The pH has been running anywhere between 7-2 and 7.6. Should I lower it with some of the pH Decreaser the pool supply company gouged me for? When we get home this evening we will put more chlorine in. I will stick with the liquid bleach for now and not use the powdered shock I bought (again....). We'll also vacuum the bottom and sides again, too. I plan on returning here regularly until I get this resolved. Oh, the chemical tester I use is the strips and sometimes its difficult to tell exactly what a reading/color is. Sometimes it's inbetween. I imagine I should follow Don's advice and get the 5-way drop kit at WalMart tonight on the way home.
Thanks, any and all input is appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kathy

[JohnT]

The pH has been running anywhere between 7-2 and 7.6. Should I lower it with some of the pH Decreaser the pool supply company gouged me for?

If it's 7.2 you definitely don't want to lower it, and 7.6 is right on the upper edge of "you still don't want to lower it". Any higher than 7.6 and you would want to start nudging it down.

[geneskaf]

ok, I'll leave the ph alone, then. Thanks.

Kathy

[aylad]

You definitely need to get a drop-based kit, and if your WalMart carries the $15 5-way, that would be a good one to start with. The strips are very unreliable, and are not worth much at all when trying to clear up a problem. As Marie pointed out, CYA of 0 is WAY different than CYA 30. If the bags of shock you bought were cal hypo, then see if you can return them--with your hardness that high you definitely do NOT want to put any more calcium in your pool. In fact, with your Ca and TA both that high, I'm not sure that some of your cloudy problem isn't precipitating calcium.

So..the best thing you can do is get a drop-based kit and run tests for Cl, pH, TA, Ca, and CYA and post them here. Alternatively, you could get a pool store to test for them (IF they used drop-based testing) and get their printout to post here. Just don't buy anything they want to sell you, unless it's a drop-based test kit!

We'll be able to help you go from there.

Janet

[duraleigh]

Is this pool vinyl, fibreglas, or gunite?

You're doing quite a bit of guesswork with the strips. I would strongly suggest a drops based test kit.

As John already suggested....skip the powdered shock (or any Cal hypo).

I'm almost certain your issue is not maintaining your Cl level high enough, long enough but that's a little bit of a guess because of the test strips.

See if that pool store will give you complete test results for:
pH
FC
CC
Alk
CYA

That'll help us all to help you get your water clear....and it WILL clear, stay with it!:)

[geneskaf]

Hi. My pool is vinyl. When I got home tonight I did a water sample with the drops (just a small testing unit for cl and ph. The water color was brighter yellow than the 5 on the side for chlorine and the pH was 7.2. So, chlorine stayed in there today. I checked the powdered shock and it is calcium hypo so I will return that tomorrow. I am going to run to the store and get some more bleach for tonight. Luckily, I live in Washington state and actually its raining right now!

I'll also take in a water sample to the pool supply store but I won't buy a thing (unless they have the water sample kit I want!).

Will report my chemical results tomorrow. :)

Thanks to everyone,
Kathy

[duraleigh]

Kathy,

That's great. Everyone here will be looking for them and you'll get lots of help.:)

[geneskaf]

Geez, now I can't find where I posted this the first time. If you find duplicates...forgive me. I'm not only pool illiterate but also message posting illiterate...LOL

Sorry guys, but I started a new thread because I'm not sure what to do next and I guess I need to do something!! The test below was done at about 3:30 pm PDT from a sample I took this morning at 7:30 am and right now its 5:40 pmPDT. I just tested the chlorine and ph and this is the result (I added chlorine AFTER the testing this morning) The chlorine is a 5 and the pH is at 7.2 and the pool is still cloudy.
???????????????????
Hi,

I finally made it to the pool store after a very hectic day at work. These are the results:
Tot chlorine 7.3
Free Chlorine 6.1
Alkalinity 133
Tot hardness 243
Optimizer 30
No Maganese
Saturation Idx .02
No Copper
No Iron
They did not test the CYA or TDS

They recommended this:
3 bags of Oxysheen
2 oz of Polysheen blue (clarifyer?)

She also tested my phosphates and said they were high (1000) and recommended I buy Sear Klear Phosphate Remover and use 2 oze.

I didn't buy anything. Thought I would wait for some directions from you experts on here. The water is still cloudy. When I checked the chlorine this morning, my husband checked with the stick tester and it said low. When I checked with the drop kit it said over 5. Even though it read high, I still put a gallon of chlorine it because it just hasn't been staying there all day, especially today because its sunny out. Soooo....what next????

Waiting with bated breath....
Kathy

[geneskaf]

All the test drop kits I've seen go as high as 5. 5 what? I'm told to get my chlorine to 15. How do I know its 15 if the kit only goes to 5? I've spent $650 on my pool (above ground 28x16 vinyl) and its still cloudy. I'm getting so frustrated. What is ppm?

KATHY

[rmeden]

ppm is "parts per million".

15ppm says for each 15 units of CL, there is 1 million units of something else (water).

You need to dilute the pool water to measure over 5. Take one shot glass of pool water and put it in a cup. Now add 4 shot glasses of distilled water (tap water is probably close enough, test to make sure it has no CL).

Now do your test... and multiple by 5. So 1ppm on your gauge is now 5ppm in the pool.

Robert

[Watermom]

We really need to know the cya reading. In the meantime, test it at least 2x a day, and 3x a day is better if you can do it. Each time, add enough bleach to bring your cl level back up to 15. The key to clearing a pool is to sustain the high cl reading. If you let it yo-yo up and down, you'll never clear it. You really need a test kit that measures higher than 5 like the one Ben sells at the sister site to this forum www.poolsolutions.com which is what most of us use. But for now, you can dilute your sample and make your kit go higher than 5. Take one part pool water and one part distilled water, mix them together, test as usual and multiply the result by 2. If you need to go higher than this, take one part pool water and two parts distilled, multiply result by 3, etc. It does lose some accuracy with each dilution but it is better than nothing.

(After we get your cya reading, we may need to adjust what you need to keep your chlorine at but for now, go with 15.)

[Watermom]

Please don't start another thread. Let's keep it all together in one. I'm going to merge this thread with your other one.

EDIT - I deleted your post for you that you accidently posted twice.

[geneskaf]

CYA results:

42

I also tested the following (with a drop kit at home)

Chlorine - 15 (this is using the shot method - one shot pool water, 2 shots distilled water)

Alkalinity 250

ph 7.0 - 7.2 (the color is in between these two)

Hardness - 0 (the sample never turned red in the first place so it says there is no hardness).

And.......the water is STILL cloudy. I've been putting in bleach daily and honestly, I've about had it with this pool. I'm starting to feel like I'll never see the bottom again.!!!!!!

Any thoughts? What next??

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!

Kathy (in overcast Washington - thank goodness!!!!!)

[geneskaf]

Hi everyone,

Any takers out there??? I just don't know what to do to this pool and I need some help. I've been working on it nearly a month (as my husband has reminded me a LOT :) and we still can't see the bottom.

Any of you experts have some direction for me?

Kathy

[let_her_flicker]

I am by no means an expert, but after reading the thread I have a few questions. Today your alkalinity is 250. On 6/16 you reported 133. That is a big difference.

When you vacuum are you vacuuming to Waste or into the filter? If you are going into the filter, you need to backwash or the dead algae will get back into your pool making it cloudy. Every time you vacuum, I would vacuum to waste and get rid of that nasty stuff. Keep at it with the bleach.

Sometimes when lots of chemicals have been added it can make your pool cloudy. One time Ben talked about pool water just getting worn out and needing to replace most of it. There is really no time table or chart about it, but the theory is at somepoint, a person's pool water may not respond anymore.

If you have check out this link, it may help you:

http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/cloudy.html

Good luck and keep working at it.

[geneskaf]

well, I guess mine is worn out, then. I replaced it 3 years ago. I'm going to take a pool sample in again for about the 10th time and see what it reads. I don't know anymore. I'm ready to bag the whole thing and not have a pool this summer!

Thanks for responding.

Kathy

[geneskaf]

Oh, and how do you vacuum to waste?

Kathy

[mbar]

Please don't give up. Here is what I would do:
To vacuum to waste, look on your filter - on the top where you turn your filter on and off there should be a place for backwash - if you don't have one, then I don't know what kind of sand filter you have. Was your filter checked? If your filter is not working properly, then your water will never clear.

Second, I would cut a pair of old stockings or tights - cut the leg off. Put the foot in the skiimmer basket, wrap the top part (where yu cut) around the top of the basket and put it back in - this will collect the small particles that the filter is letting back in the water.

Third, turn your return eyballs up so that the water is bubbling on the top of the water, this will aerate your water and with a ph of 7. to 7.2 it will lower your alkalintiy while raising your ph. You must keep lowering the ph back down to 7 and repeat - your alkalinity is too high. Check out the sticky in the alkalinity section of the forum, this will explain the process to you.

Fourth, keep your chlorine at 15 to 20 constantly - this means checking it a couple of time a day. You must not let it yo yo up and down - you still have combined chlorine which means that you are not killing the algae completely - it is trying to come back, and will use up your chlorine fast.

Fifth, and most important, don't let it get you down - you have to have complete patience - I know you think that you have, but you keep wanting to try new things - you must keep the chlorine steady until it holds overnight. You must keep your filter running 24/7. You have to make sure that the filter is working properly - the stocking on the skimmer will help. Invest in a good test kit - so you will have control over your own pool. Read all you can on these forum boards, after a while they will start to make sense to you. It seems really confusing, but in the end it is simple - keep chlorine in your pool at all times so that you don't get an algae bloom - balance the water according to the type of pool you have. Have patience and don't throw lots of chemicals in the water - most times the chlorine just needs time to work, and the filter has to filter out the dead stuff. Keep your ph and alk balanced - they will buonce around a lot if you don't. In a vinyl pool you don't need calcium, unless you have a heater, then keep it low - around 125.

Hope this helps, good luck!

[let_her_flicker]

Kathy,

Don't throw the bag in just yet. Water should not wear out in 3 years.

So, by your response you have been vacuuming into the sand filter I assume.

To backwash you need a backwash hose that should be attached to the filter. It is rolled up and usually blue in color. If you don't have one, get one from your pool store. You will need a clamp too to hold it in place. Roll out the hose so it can discharge. Turn your filter off. Move handle clockwise to backwash. Turn filter back on. Water should flow through the blue hose. Check the little plastic bubble near the top of the filter housing on the side. It will look sandy in color. When it appears clear, stop filter. Move hand to rinse. Run on rinse for about 15 to 30 seconds. Stop filter again. Turn handle to filter. Start your filter again.

To vacuum to waste, roll out the blue hose. Remove all air from the vacuum hose by placing hose in front of the return. The place vacuum hose into skimmer throat (remove basket first). Turn filter off. Move handle to waste. Turn filter back on and water should come out the blue hose like backwashing (except at a slower rate). Vacuum bottom. Then follow procedures by turn filter off, removing hose, replacing basket, move handle to filter and turn on. No need to backwash yet.

Keep chlorine up. You do need to know how much CYA you have in the pool so you can know how much chlorine we need to get it at to kill all the things that are consuming your chlorine.

Make sure you try to keep PH around 7.5 Deal with the TA later. Even a PH as high as 7.8 doesn't inhibit the effectiveness of chlorine that much. Constantly aerating will cause the PH to rise.

The key is to do one thing at a time.

Hope this helps.

Harry

[geneskaf]

Harry,

My CYA is 42, taken with a drop test. So, I'm not supposed to have total chlorine? I'm guessing this by the statement that I still have total chlorine so there is something in my pool that is using up the chlorine???? I will try the backwash to waste tonight. Man, I am so sick of this pool. Ugh. I used to have a life. :)

Thanks to everyone for all your help so far!!!

Kathy

[day1]

If you don't have a waste hose, you can use any hose that will fit tightly over the waste port on your filter (usually the back side). I use a short hose
that came with my pool for the aquabug cleaner, it has 8 four ft. sections that fit together. That way I can see it coming out of the hose instead of watching the little plastic window. I just attach to waste port and backwash...DON'T FORGET to STOP PUMP and move lever to RINSE before turning back to filter! I forgot that once when I started all this pool stuff last summer and blew alot of dirt back into the pool!
Main thing is to keep Cl levels up....I personally think a high cl level is better than a low when shocking....and my "bleach line" shows it on the liner. I just add water above the line and I feel alot better. Point is, if you don't keep levels high, you'll never get rid of the algae. It's much easier to maintain a good range than mess with shocking and consequently having to add muratic acid to lower pH. You'll notice as you add chlorine for shocking, it will raise pH...which is better kept at about 7.4-7.6 I only add Chlorine, muratic acid or water to my pool. You can swim in pond water...just don't drink it! good luck!

[let_her_flicker]

Stabilizer . . . . . . Min. FC . . . . Max FC . . . 'Shock' FC
=> 0 ppm . . . . . . . 1 ppm . . . . . 3 ppm . . . . 10 ppm
=> 10 - 20 ppm . . . . 2 ppm . . . . . 5 ppm . . . . 12 ppm
=> 30 - 50 ppm . . . . 3 ppm . . . . . 6 ppm . . . . 15 ppm
=> 60 - 90 ppm . . . . 5 ppm . . . . . 10 ppm . . .. 20 ppm
=> 100 - 200 ppm . . . 8 ppm . . . . . 15 ppm . . .. 25 ppm

I am sure you have seen the above chart. You should shoot for 15 ppm, but if it goes to 20 or even 25, it will most likely not damage or fade your liner because you have stabilizer in your pool.

You should have total chlorine. That is Free Chlorine + Combined Chlorine which equals Total chlorine. Don't worry, just post your chlorine number. My neighbor's pool was one cloudy, dirty mess. I tested their water with my kit and never had a positive combined chlorine reading. Took 1.5 weeks, but we got it clear. They just need to keep the vacuuming up.

Just make sure not to go over 20 ppm (parts per million) of chlorine in your pool. Try to keep it that high every day. Vacuum to waste every day. Don't forget to refill your pool as necessary to keep it around the middle of the skimmer entrance. You should see a difference in your pool in about a week. You must vacuum regularly (and not into the filter) and I would brush the walls every other day.

Keep up the good work. If you have any questions about backwashing, PM me and I will try to help. As stated earlier, any time you move the handle on your filter, Stop the pump first.

Harry

[mbar]

Total Chlorine is the free chlorine plus the combined chlorine. The first numbers you posted were :
Tot chlorine 7.3
Free Chlorine 6.1

Which leaves you with 1.2 combined chlorine, which means that you are fighting something in your water. Without a test that tests for combined chlorine it is ok to just bring your levels up to shock - I would try to bring it up to 20ppms. You can tell that you don't have anything fighting your chlorine when the chlorine holds overnight.

I told you to point your return eyes up so that you can aerate your water, because as long as your ph is low, you can lower your alkalinity this way, and your alk is way to high - it should be 80 to 125 in a vinyl liner pool and not higher than 180.

Just keep adding the chlorine - your pool will clear. Every time it goes down at all, add it back to 20ppms.

[let_her_flicker]

1. 6.1 and 7.3 are pool store readings. Can't trust them. You can only trust Ben's readings with his kit. If your chlorine drops at night, yes you are fighting something.

2. I would worry about the TA later. It is not causing your pool to be cloudy.

3. I will let mbar help you from now on as I don't want to confuse you with anymore recommendations as your pool is giving you enough trouble already.

Good Luck

[geneskaf]

ok, i've done as asked :) Scrubbing, vacuuming, adding chlorine daily. Added 2 gallons of chlorine yesterday and this morning its still at 15.

My chlorine is holding but my pH is now 6.8. And, the pool is still cloudy.

What should I do now? Today our warm weather is starting and I'm bummed, but not as much as my kids!

Kathy

[Bleach=Chlorine?]

Can you post a full set of #s? I don't want to recommend any changes without knowing where the TA (total alkalinity) is. Also, how is your filter pressure? Have you been backwashing the filter? Lastly, is the water coming out of your returns clear?

[geneskaf]

ok, i went to test the alkalinity and my directions are not in my pool kit. Another roadblock. I have the 5 test from Wal Mart. How do I test the alkalinity? My CYA is 42 and there is O hardness. My chlorine is 15 ppm and my pH is 6.8. As soon as I figure out how to test the AK I will. I think you put 5 drops of AK Indicator in some water (amount?) and then add 5 drops of AK and count the drops it takes to turn red then multiply by 3???

Thanks

[geneskaf]

ok, if the test is correct the way i did it, (put drops in 25 ml of pool water) it never did turn RED but at about 28 drops it was clear and then at about 35 drops it started turning a yellowish color with a tinge of orange I guess. Its got 65 drops of AK Titrant and its a tinge of orange. I wouldn't call it red. Anyway, if I multiply by 3 it would be about 190. Should I keep putting drops in until it turns completely red?

Kathy

[geneskaf]

OK, now I have some new numbers. The water is still cloudy with visibility of about one foot. Todays numbers are:

Chlorine 1.5
pH 7.3
Alkalinity 60 (low, right?)
CYA 42

I know I need to add chlorine tonight. I had so much chlorine in it I couldnt test the pH or alkalinity. But...the chlorine HAS been holding. I'm told there is a lot of dead algae (tiny particles) in the pool. I'm vacuuming to waste, I put some sparkle stuff in the trap thingy and I'm backwashing as necessary. According to what I've read, I should let the filter get 5 to 7 pounds over and above the normal pressure before I backwash. Is this correct?

We are in the middle of a heat wave here in Washington and the kids are chomping at the bit.

Thoughts? Advice? Next?

Thanks,
Kathy

[Watermom]

If you still have cloudy water, you need to continue to shock your pool. Also, run your pump 24/7. I don't know what sparkle stuff in the trap thingy is, but you probably didn't need it. As far as backwashing goes, we usually suggest backwashing when the pressure rises 8-10 psi.

[geneskaf]

My pump has been running 24/7 for nearly a month now (the amount of time this pool has been being worked on). You say to shock - what will the shock do? It's been shocked and shocked and reshocked. I kept the chlorine up to 15 - 20 for a week. My pool liner is nearly whilte!

Kathy

[DogPaddle]

Kathy--sorry you're having such a frustrating experience. I haven't read every post on this thread so I apologize if someone already asked...what kind of filter do you have? Is it in good working condition? Have you backwashed and dismantled the filter to clean it well? You can run your pump until doomsday but without a good, clean filter you may be just be recycling silt back into the pool. (i.e., If you have a DE filter that has deteriorated the filter "fins" could have holes that let debris back into the pool. If the filter has holes you may not notice an increase in pressure that would indicate time to backwash.) Good luck and don't give up yet!

[geneskaf]

Hi,
I have a sand filter and have replaced the sand this year. I have replaced the gauge, too. I put clarifier in yesterday and have white pieces of stuff in my pool right now. I just spent some time vacuuming to waste and scrubbed the walls again. The pool store where I buy my chemicals and get my water tested gave me the clarifier for free...LOL...early on I spent so much money in there I guess they feel they owe me. They want to see me with clear water, too!! I had a lot of dead teeny tiny particles in my pool. Lord knows they couldn't be alive with the volume of chlorine they've been sitting in. :) I have been working on this pool for a month. I wish I would have emptied the pool originally and started from fresh. It would have cost me less! However, I really would know as much as I do about pools now, I 'spose. I just don't know what to do next. The 4th of July is nearly here and our pool is cloudy, cloudy, cloudy. It's blue...but cloudy.

Kathy