Metal in the water (Fiberglass 35K pool)

[blk133]

Hello,

I think that I finally figured out that I have a metal stain in the pool.
I took one little Vitamin C and droped it on the stain, in about 20 seconds I could see a white spot around it. (See Pic before/After)

Now if someone could tell me how much of Vitamin C powder do I need to treat a 35000 Gallons fiberglass pool.

My pool was green a week ago because I went on vacation and nobody took care of it.

After I returned I tried to shock it.

For the last 3 days water was at around 12-13 PPM every night, but during the day it would drop to 5PPM so I would add more chlorine at around 6 PM.

My problem is that I don't have anyone to test it 3 times a day.

My current numbers are:
PS233 kit

FC 9PPM
(was 15PPM before I went to sleep, 12PPM when I woke up, I added 3 QT of bleach and now it is at 9PPM) Temp is 77*F Pool was open for the whole day with the sun.
So:

FC 9PPM
CC .5 (maybe less)
PH 7.2
ALK 80-90
CAL 120-130
CYA 20-25?

Please help.
Thank you,
B.

[mbar]

see the post I posted in "brown stains spreading" It answers the question on what to do for stain treatment - feel free to ask any more questions you may have.

[blk133]

When you talk about sequestering agent, which one do you talk about?
Is there a specific one for a fiberglass pool? Can you guys provide a link if possible as where I could buy it?

[mbar]

I used Sequasol this year, the site I bought it from is:
http://www.focuspools.com/products/GLB/Stain-SEQUASOL.asp
I have also used Jack's Magic and Metal Free, you can google them and find them online. I would use enough according to the directions for the volume of the pool, and a little extra too.

[blk133]

Thank you very much!

I ordered 4 bottles of SEQUASOL for 35000 Gallons pool, as you said it's better more than not enough.

I also bought 5 lbs of Vitamin C yesterday from one of the websites that you provided a link for.

Can't wait for all of it to come so that I could see a true color of my pool again. Tired of seeing this yellowish/brown tint to it.

Thank you again!
B.

[mbar]

Good luck, and feel free to ask any questions you may have - you're going to love it, it is like magic!

[blk133]

Can someone please tell me how much of Ascorbic Acid do I need to put in a 35K fiberglass pool?

The metal stain is all over the walls and floor.
I tried 5 foam cups around the pool but it seems not enough. Acid desolves very quickly and I started to see white streaks on the wall but overall the pool is still not white.

I have a DE filter EC-75 and it doesn't have a circulate option. It is always filtering. Is it ok? Or should I turn it off while I am doing it?

Thanks,
B.

[mbar]

You will need about 3 or 4 lbs. I use anywhere from 1 to 2 in 16,500 gal. It is ok to turn the pump off and walk around the pool, dropping the ascorbic acid down the sides of the pool. Once it is all dissolved, you can put your pump back on and let it filter. Let it filter 24/7. I would start with 3 lbs, and then if all the stain isn't gone in 1 hour walk around and put the other pound in where you still see the stain. Keep me informed, and feel free to ask any questions you have.

[blk133]

I used about 3.5-4 lbs of Ascorbic Powder, can't say exactly, but I still have about 20% left in the bag.
2 hours later I droped 4 bottles of Sequasol.

I can still see stains in some places they are very lite, but mostly it's looking good.

Do you think it is ok to add more of Ascorbic Acid even though I already added a Sequasol?

When I am adding Ascorbic Acid it looks like it disolves before even reaching the bottom of the pool.

My Chlorine level is 0

Thanks,
B

[mbar]

It does dissolve before reaching the bottom. It is fine to add sequasol right after the ascorbic acid - and not a problem to add the ascorbic acid after. I would wait a while befor adding more, I think after the water filters for a while it will take the rest of the stain off. You can add more ascorbic acid, but it will just take longer for the pool to hold chlorine. The pool won't hold chlorine till the chlorine eats up all the ascorbic acid that is in the water, that's why I try to use as little as possible. You can even wait till tomorrow to add more if you still have stain. Congrats! you're almost finished!

[blk133]

24 hours later. I have not been home yet, but my father called me and said that water is not as clear as it used to be (foggy?)

Why would it be foggy? Because Chlorine 0? Algae bloom?

How much chlorine can I put in? I know that I have to add it in small amounts, but how small? 1 bottle 3/4 Gal? 2 bottles?

Should I add some Borax? I don't know how much my PH is at this time.

Thanks,
B

[mbar]

The water is cloudy from the metals going back into solution and the sequesterant - it will clear up, don't worry. I would not start chlroine until tomorrow. Then add enough to get you to 1 to 2ppms. You will need a lot of borax, because the ascorbic acid will take your ph way down. Check it, put in a half a box and test 2 hours later. Keep doing that until you get to 7.2. Don't bring your ph higher than 7.2 for now. Keep your filter running 24/7. Test your alkalinity - if it is low you can use baking soda as well.

[blk133]

Checked the water today, it is about 40 hours after Ascorbic Acid was added.

Very cloudy (like milk) Bumped the pump, because pressure was at 35.

Chlorine 0
Ph 7.2 (for some reason it didn't go down as much as I thought it would)
It was at 7.5 when I started adding the Ascorbic Acid

Didn't add any Chlorine yet.

[DavidD]

Marie is definitely the expert on this mater in my opinion and you are in excellent hands. Something I do when going through an "ascorbic acid treatment" is add some 60% polyquat algaecide. You can get it for under $20 at the local pool store, Home depot or Lowes. This gives me a little peace of mind and I don't know if it attacks the ascorbic acid or not (Marie?). My treatments seam to work like a charm (thanks once again Marie!:) )
The cloudy "like milk" water is something I've never personally experienced. It may be normal but just out of curiosity, what is your CH (calcium) level?

Dave
16K gallon Fiberglass

[blk133]

My Calcium was at 120-130. Alk was at 80-90

[DavidD]

Well that pretty much shoots my "high CH theory" out of the water. Both of those look fine. Maybe it's the metal, scale or gunk. I'd just keep the filter going, bumping as little as possible.

Dave

[blk133]

I got a DE filter EC-75, I bumped 5 times slow down and quick up. Why bumping as little as possib.?

[DavidD]

Because bumping causes the DE and "stuff" to loosen up and it may very well cause some of the "stuff" ( which is hopefully the metal in your case) to go back into the pool. Now this is only my theory but seems logical?
A couple of days after I do "the treatment", I always change the DE and I also have the EC-75, which I love by the way. The only time I change DE is when doing the "ascorbic treatment", which is usually a couple of times a year. I buy a 21 lb box of DE before opening and it last all season as the filter holds 7 lbs.

Dave

[mbar]

Adding polyquat is a good idea, especially if you live in a hot climate. I don't usually add any, and I haven't gotten any algae after a treatment. The polyquat won't hurt the treatment at all. The first time I did a treatment my water was like milk also. I had a lot of stain - the whole pool was stained. The water will clear up, but if you want to, you can try flock. When I had the very milky water, on the 4th day I used flock in my pool. It cleared up the water. I put it in and waited 24 hours, then I vacuumed to waste. It did a great job of clearing my water, and I didn't get any stain back. I did add more sequesterant after I used fill water (from vacuuming to waste). If the stain is all gone, then doing the flock now won't hurt. You don't want to do it if you still need to get stain off. I can understand that you want to have the pool ready to swim in - and no one wants to swim in a cloudy pool.

[blk133]

Don't have polyquat yet. Pool still looks like milk. Pump's pressure is at 35 (normal 22) don't know if I should let it run overnight.

Added a bottle of chlorine 96oz and after about two hours added one more.


What do you guys think? Should I let it run overnight? Pump has been running for about 54 hours.

Thanks,
B

[mbar]

I don't know anything about DE filters, I have a sand one. It won't hurt to let it off for the night, but it would probably be better if you keep the water moving and filtering.

[blk133]

Left it to run overnight. 9 AM water still looks like milk. Checked Chlorine level and it was at .5 so I added another bottle 96 oz of bleach. PH is at 7.2.

How come PH is staying at 7.2 and doesn't go down at all? I thought that it would go way down.

Should I try to backwash my filter? Pressure was at 35 this morning.

Thanks,
B.

[mbar]

You will use up chlorine fast, because the chlorine is attacking the ascorbic acid. I don't know why your ph hasn't gotten any lower than that, mine always did - are you sure your ph test is ok? I also know that all pool water reacts differently sometimes, so as long as your ph is ok, just keep adding bleach and filtering. You can bump your filter, and backwash as needed now - I'm sorry I don't know anything about DE filters.

[DavidD]

B,

If it were me, I'd go ahead and backwash now as Marie suggests. Get the pool clear by keeping the chlorine up and then consider backwashing it once again before you bring the chlorine up to "shock" levels. My reasoning for this is the "milky" water. I'm thinking the milky substance will all eventually get caught in the DE and you don't want it hanging around in there to only precipitate back out after you shock. Backwashing again is a must if you use the floc.

Dave

[blk133]

I did not backwashed a filter yet. Water is a little bit less milky. Today, after 4 days I was able to see the bottom drain, not very clear though. Chlorine level is .5-1 most of the time. Adding 1-2 bottles daily of 96 oz. 6% chlorine.

When can I try to bring it to 5 ppm? Can I do it by putting it all in to the pool at once? Or I still have to slowly add chlorine.

PH is at 7.2 still.
CYA is at 25-30

Don't know if the stains are all gone since I can't see the bottom clearly.
Don't want to add floc yet.

Thanks,
B.

[mbar]

You can start to bring the chlorine up to 5. You can keep adding it to go up by adding enough to go up 1 to 2 ppms at a time. You just want to watch to see if any stains start to appear - if they do then add more sequesterant. Keep your ph no higher than 7.2 till all the cloudiness goes away. I would backwash the filter now.

[blk133]

Hello everybody! Today is a day 6 after I added Ascorbic Powder.
Backwashed my filter yesterday and added 7lbs of DE.
Droped 3 bottles of 96 oz. Chlorine yesterday and today my Chlorine is at .5 again. The water is a little clearer and I can see bottom drain better than before.

Can't keep it up yet (Chlorine). I added 2 more bottles today and left to work. I'll add 2 more at around 5 PM.

PH keeps going up instead of going down. Today it is higher than 7.2 but lower than 7.5. I don't know what is going on with it. Could it be because my return eyeballs facing up? Arriation? Or because we had rain for 3 days non-stop.

What do you guys think?

Thanks,
B

[mbar]

Yes, you probably are aerating the pool - better check your alkalinity - it may be low. If it is add baking soda, and if the ph goes any higher than 7.4 make sure you add acid to bring it back down. If your ph gets high, make sure your chlorine is on the low end of your cya chart. Remember high ph with high chlorine lets metals precipitate out, so keep your eye on the pool, if you start to see stains take your ph back down to 7 and add more sequestering agent. Since you have a DE filter, you can add a trichlor puck to your skimmer basket.

[blk133]

Today the water looked crystal clear, for some reason all of my CYA is gone. Added 6 lbs.

Stains--- Some stains are still there, droped Vitamin C and it desappears. Maybe I should drop more Ascorbic Acid? Maybe not enough Sequestaring Agent? 4 bottles? 35K pool I thought should be enough.

What do you think? I don't want to get cloudy water again.

Thanks,
B

[mbar]

Were all of the stains gone first, and coming back now - or were they never lifted off in the first place. If the stains just came back, drop your ph back to 7 and add more sequestering agent. If the stains never came off in the first place, add more ascorbic acid and let the pump circulate for a while. Your water shouldn't get very cloudy again, maybe just a little. You don't need to take you chlorine down again, but watch it because the ascorbic acid will use up the chlorine fast. I am surprised about the cya, did you lose any water?

[blk133]

Since I added Ascorbic acid from the plastic cup around the walls of the pool, stains came off that were close to the walls at the begining, then water became cloudy and after that they came back.

Now (as it was before) the whole floor of the pool is covered with a layer of stain.

As you know I bought 5 lbs of Ascorbic Acid and 4 bottles of Sequestering Agent, I used 4lbs and all 4 bottles on day one when I started all that.

Yesterday I poured in 2 more bottles of Metal Out with the pump off. Direction was to have the pump off for 8 hours (for stain removal process). It didn't do anything to the stains.

I had about a pound of Ascorbic Acid left in the bag so I droped it in and as soon as Ascorbic Acid touched the floor of the pool stain started to disappear around those spots. So I know that it is deffinately a metal.

CYA went down for no reason, I already put in 6 lbs of CYA into the pool and now it is back at 20-30. Haven't shocked the pool yet since the time I started all of this.

Now I don't have Ascorbic Acid anymore, all 5 lbs are gone, stain still there, sequestering agent is gone LOL. And I am out of $130. Expensive treatment :) that didn't do much. Don't get mad guys it's not your fault. Thanks for helping me. I am out of ideas on how much more of this freaking acid do I have to add.

[DavidD]

B,

So sorry to hear that. Don't spend another dime yet. How's your PH? Go ahead and post all your numbers. Also, you may want to take a sample to a "reputable" pool store, if you can find one:rolleyes: , and get them to test for metals so we know which metal is giving you the problems. Bring a sample of your tap water as well for testing.

Dave

[mbar]

So sorry to hear of the trouble you are having. Can you post your numbers so that maybe I can see something that would make sense as to why the sequestering agent isn't keeping the metals in suspension after they are lifted from the pool. Having the cloudy water really seemed to be that the metals went into suspension. Is there something that could be putting more metal into your pool? Do you have copper pipes? I am just trying to figure out what is going on. Your clacium level is not high - so it can't be that - and the ascorbic acid is taking the stain off - so something is either putting more metal in the water, or the sequestering agent isn't working, maybe there isn't enough in the water - You may have to add more - if you had a lot of stain, maybe there was just too much metal for the amount of sequesterer you put in. I would take the ph down to 7, add more sequestering agent and see if the stains get lighter.

[blk133]

Guys,

I am back to step 1, Stain is even worse than it was before. Floor and walls are covered with this brownish/yellowish layer. Looks very dirty. As soon as I drop vitamin C it disappears around the vitamin.

I went to the local pool store (Leslies) guys checked the water for metal and said 0 metal in the water. He couldn't even sell anything to me just said that my numbers are perfect.

Chlorine 4ppm
Total Chlorine 4ppm
PH 7.2
Alk 80-90
Cal 120-130
CYA 30

We had a heavy rain here and maybe that caused it to stain even more than it used to be.

I don't have anything in the pool that could cause it to stain. Pool heater is Aquacal h155 that has a titanium heat exchanger, filter Hayward DE EC-75 and polaris 380.

All pipes are PVC.

[gerri]

Today the water looked crystal clear, for some reason all of my CYA is gone. Added 6 lbs.


You know, I thought it was weird or maybe my test was off or something but all my CYA dissapeared during my AA treatment too. I have got to get some more in the water. I didn't lose any water or do any water changes or anything, just can't find any CYA in my pool anymore when I test. I was at around 40 before the treatment. :o

[mbar]

blk133, I feel your pain. YOur numbers are perfect. The same thing happened to me too last year. I still don't understand it - my water doesn't test positive for metals either, but I do get staining. I know that if the stain is out on the pool, the water won't test positive for metals , and if the metals are bonded to a sequetering agent, then they won't test positive either. I have read that fiberglass is magnetic, and that you should keep calcium at 300, so the metal doesn't leach out - I just don't know if I beleive it. I know that calcium is a metal, so I would imagaine it would cause staining if there is too much in the water. I had the worst stain the year the pool company put so much calcium in my water it measured 550. So the calcium thing is something I have a hard time with. I haven't had any staining problems this year - I have my calcium level really low because of all the rain we have had. It is only at about 80 and I don't have stains. There is so much conflicting information out there. What I think may have happened to your pool is that there isn't enough sequesterer in the water, and the metals precipitated out again. Waterbear (Evan) has found a product by Proteam called metal magic, that is supposed to bind onto the metals and turn them into crystals which can then be filtered out - which means that they will be gone, and unable to restain! I have ordered some, it hasn't arrived yet. I have a friend that is having trouble with stains this year. I am going to try it on both my pool and hers. I will post the results I have. I am afraid that the water will get cloudy for a while, since the metals will turn to crystals, but it is a small price to pay to get them out once and for all. You will have to do the ascorbic acid again though to get the metals back into solution before using the metal magic. Waterbear said the proteam stain treatment is ascorbic acid, so the regular plain ascorbic acid will work to take the stains off, then you can use the metal magic to crystalize them and filter them out. Here is interesting iinfo I found from the San Juan web site:



METAL PLATING (DISCOLORATION)

Top
Most fill water contains trace to measurable amounts of metals. Because these metals are completely dissolved in the water, they are invisible. Fiberglass acts as a magnet, attracting these metals and plating the gel-coat surface. This plating will not rub or brush off and appears as blotches or shading and may even take on bizarre appearances such as hand or foot prints. Iron deposits appear reddish or light brown, copper will be green or blue green, magnesium or cobalt is black. This plating can be removed almost immediately with the addition of metal removing agents to your pool water. Note: sequestering agents are not effective. Two products are very effective in removing these deposits. Metal Magic by Proteam Products and Jacks Magic by Crystaline Products. Metal Magic attacks all metals and converts them to a metal salt which is removed in the filtering process. Follow label instructions for proper application. Because calcium is a metal, occasionally metal magic will cause the calcium in your pool water to form cloudiness. Continuous filtration may remove this cloudiness. If not, a flocking agent can be used to settle the sediment to the pool floor where it can be vacuumed out. Contact your San Juan Dealer or pool professional for further information on flocking agents.

Jacks Magic will effectively remove iron deposits from the pools surface but will not remove it from the water. An additional Jacks product must be added to coagulate the metals into a filterable mass. Pools sanitized with chlorine must have chlorine levels reduced or removed for Jacks Magic to be effective.




So, there you have it - It just keeps getting more and more confusing - but if this really works, it will be great. I think it is worth a try. All of the advice I give on this forum is from my own experience, or from what I have read that seems to fit to me. that is why I want to try out this product, so I can let others know if it works.

[Tishabiondy@natlmail.com]

Marie, may I ask who you purchased your pool from?

Tisha

[mbar]

I got it through a pool dealer in my area, but the pool itself came from Water World in NJ.

[blk133]

Hey guys!

After my stain returned I thought I could ignore it, but today it looks so bad that I can't ignore it anymore. In addition to the metal on the walls and floor now I have these spots that don't come off with the brush. I don't know if it's a metal or something else, but when I drop ascorbic acid on it it desappears.

Does ascorbic acid removes algea? Because chlorine couldn't remove it.

My Chl=13 PPM I tried to keep it in that range during 3 days.
PH= 7.2 PPM
Total Chl= 13 PPM
CYA=25-30

I am attaching picture of this ugly stain.

Please throw in some ideas.

Thanks,
B.

[mbar]

If the ascorbic acid worked, then it is a metal stain. Have you been putting in a sequestering agent? If you had staining before, and removed it with the ascorbic acid, did you also put in something to keep the metals in suspension? You also didn't post the alkalinity, and another question, has your ph been at 7.2 or was it higher before now? Do you have any calcium in the water? There is a couple of reasons that your stain may have returned. I can help you get rid of them if you give me more info.

[blk133]

Yes, I did put in the sequestering agent. As you can see I am originator of this Topic. Everything I did is in the beginning of this thread. Step by step.
My alc 80 my Cal is 130. Nothing changed. Only now I have these dots as you can see in the picture. I have no idea how or why they appeared. I kept my cl level at 3-5 PPM. Hmmm I chocked pool once with a Shock that I bought from Wall mart for vinyl pool, could this be it?

[mbar]

I don't know what may have caused the spots, I really can't see them too well, but the shock for vinyl pools shouldn't have done it unless there was copper in it. I know that the trichlor pucks they carry now have copper added - they do this because they want copper to act as an algacide along with the chlorine. I have found that whenever I use anything but regular unscented bleach in my pool to get high chlorine levels - especially calhypo, I get some staining. I can ususally get rid of this by lowereing the ph to 7 and adding more sequesterer. All of your other numbers look good, so I think it was just the high chlorine levels that brought the stains. If you have any ascorbic acid, I would put some in the pool and let it circulate - you don't have to do the whole treatment - just wait till your chlorine level goes down, put some in where the spots seem most prevalent, and add some more sequesterer. They should go away. Fiberglass pools tend to stain real easily. Therefore I try to keep a constant level of chlorine in the water so that I don't have to shock. Once you realize how to manage the stains - getting rid of them as soon as they appear, it isn't hard to keep a stainfree pool. It just takes a while to get to know your own water, and how it reacts to your pool - everyone's is a little different. As you can see in the post above about metal plating - they say that the fibergflass is magnetic, attacting any metals that get in the water. Metals are always in the water - it comes from dust, fertilizer, calium is also a metal and who knows what else is in the air. So if it isn't obvious of where the metals are coming from, then it is just easier to deal with it than to drive yourself crazy trying to figure out where the metals are coming from. I gave up on mine - I just deal with it as best I can, and when the stains show up I zap them! Hope this helps, feel free to ask any other questions you have.

I was just reading over all the posts, and this is my theory. You had a lot of metal in your water. When you did the metal treatment the treatment reacted with the cya (like it does with a big algae bloom) and that is why it disappeared. You used enough ascorbic acid to get rid of the stain, but not enough to sequester the metals. I know that you used a lot, but if there was stain on the whole pool, then there was a lot of metal that was lifted off and needed to be sequestered. Your metal is still in the water and as soon as you add high chlorine levels the metal that is not sequestered is falling out onto the pool. There is the new product by proteam Metal Magic that is supposed to turn the metals into salt crystals so that it can then be filtered out. You supposedly can use this, and not anything else (ascorbic acid, or sequesterer). It may be worth a try for you to get rid of the metals once and for all. If when using the metal magic, some of the stains remain, then add some ascorbic acid to lift them, and the metal magic should then be able to bind to them and get rid of them. This is only a reccomendation - I have metal magic, but have not had to use it yet. But this is what I would do if it were my pool.

[blk133]

Hmmm. Where can I buy this Metal Magic? What is the cheapest website you guys found for this product?

Thanks,
B.

[gerri]

I got my Metal Magic on Ebay. I do believe it has caused/is causing the iron in my water to drop out. Each day I vac some rusty sandy looking particles out of the pool.

[mbar]

Here is where I got my metal magic:

http://www.leisuretimeok.com/LomartPumpparts_1.html

[gerri]

I think the link that Marie gave is the cheapest place to order it from if you can't find it at a local pool shop.