Best way to open a AG pool after the winter

[rdefino]

I just took my cover and the water looks pretty good, except for some dirt and leaves.

I was going to get some chemicals going this week using the BBB method.

Now should i start by stocking with bleach for a week then adjust the Ph and chlorine from there using borax or Muriatic Acid (if needed), and continue with bleach? Based on testing also.

Thanks

[FormerBromineUser]

Hi! First off, would you please tell us your test results and what test method you used?

[rdefino]

I used the Taylor k2006
Ph 7.2
Alk 30ppm
CYA 35ppm
Chlorine 0

thanks

[FormerBromineUser]

Whoops! I have been out-of-town. Looks like nobody answered you.

Will you please update with your latest test results? Thanks!

[rdefino]

No problem.

My results were the same today, but I did shock it using bleach just a while ago. Chlorine level is at about 12-14ppm as of now.

Was that a no no?

[FormerBromineUser]

You're fine. Glad you got your FC up from zero! One of the things I was going to suggest because of that zero reading, was to do an overnight test. You take it to shock level (15ppm) around dusk. Then test a half hour after that addition and record your FC/CC. Then, the next morning test as early as you can, definitely before direct sun hits the pool, and compare your FC/CC. You are golden if your FC loss <1 and your CC is 0.5 or less as the third criterion for the overnight test is that your water is clear. You already have that! (As an aside, if I do the overnight test, I do it one more night just to make absolutely sure).

Then we can talk about raising that TA. Next time you are going to the store, pick up a box of Arm and Hammer WASHING soda (not baking soda). It's in the laundry aisle.

[rdefino]

Thank you, the water is clear. But should i follow the overnight testing starting tomorrow night. Or just go from and and get my other levels set?

Also, would this be borax "Arm and Hammer WASHING soda (not baking soda)". Having a hard time trying to find borax. I'll see if I can find washing soda.

I thought baking soda was used to raise alkalinity?

Thanks again

[FormerBromineUser]

OMGoodness. I have been up since 2:30 am central after 2-1/2 hours sleep (watched the Blackhawks win!) and had a brain freeze. You will need BAKING soda, NOT washing soda. I am so glad you responded right away!

And no, Borax is not washing soda. Different bird. Should you ever need it, look in the laundry aisle for 20 Mule Team Borax.

As for FC.... Since you are almost at shock level anyway, it seems to me that you may as well do the test now.

Your other levels are fine except for the TA. You could add a half box of regular baking soda at a time until that TA comes up. It's okay to do that at the same time.

[CarlD]

I need to correct this: Washing Soda will raise BOTH your pH and your TA/Alkalinity and used moderately will work. Washing Soda is exactly the same as pool store's "ph Up!" and similar (expensive) products--Sodium Carbonate (different from Sodium Bicarbonate, and from Borax).

Yes, your TA is low, but your pH is a bit low, too, but still safe at 7.2.

If you were to raise your pH to the "ideal" level of 7.6, you'd see your TA would rise as well. How much is anyone's guess. Remember: Alkalinity level IS a reflection of pH. Using Washing Soda to raise pH will raise TA even more than using just Borax.

But unless you are having troubles keeping pH from dropping, your TA isn't really a big problem. Yes the recommended ranges go everywhere from 100- 120 to 80-130, but in a vinyl pool the REAL determinant is your pH's stability. I've run my pool with no problem with TA as low as 50 and as high as 170 and I don't worry as long as pH remains stable.

With a vinyl pool, the two times you worry about TA is if it's not keeping pH stable or if it's approaching 200ppm AND your calcium hardness level is over 400ppm.
In the first, if the pH keeps rising you probably want to lower TA. If pH keeps dropping, you'll want to raise it.
In the second situation, you risk the water going milky from calcium. It's not dangerous, just ugly. And the quick fix is to lower TA, a lot.

So, if you cannot find Borax, you can safely use Washing Soda as long as you understand it will raise both pH and TA.

[SunnyOptimism]

Thank you, the water is clear. But should i follow the overnight testing starting tomorrow night. Or just go from and and get my other levels set?

Also, would this be borax "Arm and Hammer WASHING soda (not baking soda)". Having a hard time trying to find borax. I'll see if I can find washing soda.

I thought baking soda was used to raise alkalinity?

Thanks again

@rdefino

If you can be more specific about your pool's volume or send the full dimensions of the pool, then we can better calculate the amounts of chemicals you will need to adjust pH, TA, borates, etc.

Please update your signature with more specifics about your pool and I'll be happy to help you calculate the amounts.

[rdefino]

My pool is oval 18x34 14400 gals .

Finding borax is not easy. So far no one carries it. I could order over the web from amazon. How much do you think would be used over a 3 month summer. trying to figure out how much to buy.

I think using borax instead of washing soda might be better, so I'm not adjusting the TA and PH at the same time. What do you think?

[SunnyOptimism]

My pool is oval 18x34 14400 gals .

Finding borax is not easy. So far no one carries it. I could order over the web from amazon. How much do you think would be used over a 3 month summer. trying to figure out how much to buy.

I think using borax instead of washing soda might be better, so I'm not adjusting the TA and PH at the same time. What do you think?

OK, a couple of quick points then I have to run out -

1. Borax is not the most effective way to raise your alkalinity as it only contributes a small fraction to the Total Alkalinity. Something like 80% of your waters alkalinity comes from carbonate sources.
2. Borax will RAISE your pH. So you need to be careful and adjust your pH down first BEFORE adding Borax. Raising your pH too quickly with Borax can cause cloudy water due to calcium carbonate formation.
3. You can safely swim in water with borates up to 50ppm to 80ppm (50ppm is advisable). After that, you should not add anymore borates without doing a water exchange.
4. You can add borates to your water in one of two ways - 20 Mule Team borax which RAISES pH OR Boric acid powder which LOWERS pH. Both are fine to use; I prefer boric acid. I bought a 55lbs pail of boric acid from Duda Diesel via Amazon and it lasted me two seasons.

As I stated, your TA is mostly made up of carbonate alkalinity, so-

1. If you want to RAISE your TA without raising pH use BAKING SODA (sodium bicarbonate)

2. If you want to RAISE your TA AND RAISE your pH, use WASHING SODA (sodium carbonate)

Here are some numbers based on your pool volume and your previous measurements (not sure what your borate levels are) -

pH: to raise your pH from 7.2 to 7.6 you need to add 12oz (by weight) of washing soda or 24oz of Borax

TA: to raise your TA from 30ppm to 80ppm you'll need ~11 lbs of baking soda

Borates: to go from 0ppm to 50ppm borates you'd need to add 550 oz or 34lbs of boric acid

If you add any chemicals, break them up into 3 or 4 batches, add the batches one at a time and retest your water parameters so you don't overshoot your mark!

Here are some good chemical levels for your pool -

Vinyl with Bleach

FC 3-7
pH 7.5-7.8
TA 70-90+
CH 0-350 (Don't add)
CYA 30-50

Vinyl with SWG

FC 3-5
pH 7.5-7.8
TA 60-80
CH 0-300 (Don't add)
CYA 70-80

[rdefino]

OK, a couple of quick points then I have to run out -

1. Borax is not the most effective way to raise your alkalinity as it only contributes a small fraction to the Total Alkalinity. Something like 80% of your waters alkalinity comes from carbonate sources.
2. Borax will RAISE your pH. So you need to be careful and adjust your pH down first BEFORE adding Borax. Raising your pH too quickly with Borax can cause cloudy water due to calcium carbonate formation.
3. You can safely swim in water with borates up to 50ppm to 80ppm (50ppm is advisable). After that, you should not add anymore borates without doing a water exchange.
4. You can add borates to your water in one of two ways - 20 Mule Team borax which RAISES pH OR Boric acid powder which LOWERS pH. Both are fine to use; I prefer boric acid. I bought a 55lbs pail of boric acid from Duda Diesel via Amazon and it lasted me two seasons.

As I stated, your TA is mostly made up of carbonate alkalinity, so-

1. If you want to RAISE your TA without raising pH use BAKING SODA (sodium bicarbonate)

2. If you want to RAISE your TA AND RAISE your pH, use WASHING SODA (sodium carbonate)

Here are some numbers based on your pool volume and your previous measurements (not sure what your borate levels are) -

pH: to raise your pH from 7.2 to 7.6 you need to add 12oz (by weight) of washing soda or 24oz of Borax

TA: to raise your TA from 30ppm to 80ppm you'll need ~11 lbs of baking soda

Borates: to go from 0ppm to 50ppm borates you'd need to add 550 oz or 34lbs of boric acid

If you add any chemicals, break them up into 3 or 4 batches, add the batches one at a time and retest your water parameters so you don't overshoot your mark!

Here are some good chemical levels for your pool -

Vinyl with Bleach

FC 3-7
pH 7.5-7.8
TA 70-90+
CH 0-350 (Don't add)
CYA 30-50

Vinyl with SWG

FC 3-5
pH 7.5-7.8
TA 60-80
CH 0-300 (Don't add)
CYA 70-80

To make sure I have this right.

I should get my FC to normal level 5-7, then get my TA up to 70-90+ using baking soda...correct?

Then raise my Ph to 7.6.

How do I test for Borates?

Thanks for all the info!!!!

[CarlD]

OK, you actually have more info than you need here. Forget borates for now. You can always buy borate test strips later.
BEFORE EVERYTHING: FOLLOW THE ADVICE TO ADJUST IN SMALL INCREMENTS THEN TEST!

1) Fix your pH by adding either Borax or Washing Soda--Since your TA is low, Washing Soda is fine.
2) After your pH is around 7.6, test for TA. If it's anything above 60, don't worry about it for now.
3) Add bleach until your FC level is between 3 and 6ppm if you don't have algae. Shock to 15ppm if you do (based on CYA of 35).

Go Swimming!

[rdefino]

OK, you actually have more info than you need here. Forget borates for now. You can always buy borate test strips later.
BEFORE EVERYTHING: FOLLOW THE ADVICE TO ADJUST IN SMALL INCREMENTS THEN TEST!

1) Fix your pH by adding either Borax or Washing Soda--Since your TA is low, Washing Soda is fine.
2) After your pH is around 7.6, test for TA. If it's anything above 60, don't worry about it for now.
3) Add bleach until your FC level is between 3 and 6ppm if you don't have algae. Shock to 15ppm if you do (based on CYA of 35).

Go Swimming!

Cool, Thank everyone for the help. It's gets a little confusing. :)

Once other question, what is a good stabilizer to use along with the bleach?

Also ,is it ok to use bleach all the time in-place of chlorine for a local pool shop?

[CarlD]

I tried to make it less confusing.

ALL stabilizer is CYA--Cyanuric or Isocyanuric Acid. Easiest way to buy it is as a dry powder. There is a liquid version that works faster but is very, very expensive. The other two ways is from ordinary Di-Chlor powder and Tri-Chlor tablets.

You can use bleach FOREVER. I tend to buy liquid chlorine but only at one particular pool store because it tests out at 14% (though listed as 12%) and when compared to bleach is cheaper--as if I was buying 7% bleach at $1.50/gal. If its unit price goes higher than bleach, I'll use bleach instead.

While BBB stands for "Bleach, Borax and Baking Soda" what it REALLY means is you don't need pricey packaging from the pool store when the same stuff is far cheaper at the supermarket or big box store.

[rdefino]

Thanks, I'm figuring it out with the help of all of you. I just added some washing soda, small amount. I'll wait about 4hrs and retest.

Now isn't di-chlor and tri-chlor clhorine in table form?

[CarlD]

Di-chlor is almost always in powdered form, but I have seen 1" tablets once in a blue moon. For every 10ppm of Free Chlorine, Di-chlor adds about 9ppm of CYA.
Tri-chlor most commonly comes in 3" tablets and is VERY acidic and for every 10ppm of FC adds 6ppm of CYA.

Bleach is pH neutral and adds nothing but chlorine.

[SunnyOptimism]

Cool, Thank everyone for the help. It's gets a little confusing. :)

Once other question, what is a good stabilizer to use along with the bleach?

Also ,is it ok to use bleach all the time in-place of chlorine for a local pool shop?

The best way I have found to add cyanuric acid to your pool is to measure a 1lb (16oz) sample of it into a nylon skimmer sock, tie off the top and place the sock in front of a pool return. It will dissolve slowly. If you don't have an easy way to hang it in front of return, then throw it in the skimmer basket BUT only leave it in there while the pump is running. Never leave it in there when the water is stagnant. Never pour CYA directly into the skimmer or the pool as it dissolves slowly and can plug up your skimmer line.

CYA, like dichlor and trichlor, is acidic and will lower both pH and TA. So be careful when adding large amounts of it and keep and eye on your pH.

As for bleach, I try to find the best deal by dividing price by volume and % sodium hypochlorite. That way you can make an apples-to-apples comparison. Always check the date code on the bleach bottles as that will tell you if it is fresh. Bleach left sitting around naturally decays over time losing hypochlorite. Old bleach is bad bleach.

[FormerBromineUser]

.
Just my two cents here.... (BTW, I am more alert now!!!)

I don't know how you got a CYA reading of 35; a guess, I guess. However, I would caution against raising your CYA too much higher. You are in a Northern climate and don't have a salt water generator. I am in IL, also SWG-less, and like my CYA around 40.

Simple thought I USUALLY keep in my brain:
Borax: raises pH
Baking Soda: raises TA
Washing Soda: raises pH and TA
It's more complicated than that, but it gives me a starting point.

[CarlD]

I have found the Tri-Chlor is highly acidic, and, if you're not careful can lower pH surprisingly rapidly.
Di-Chlor is also acidic, but not nearly as much or as worrisome as Tri-Chlor.
CYA is technically acidic but its effect on pool water pH is virtually always negligible. Its effect on stabilizer level is more critical. It's better to slowly approach your target than go past it.

As far as the CYA level goes, as long as you follow the Best Guess table to match chlorine levels to CYA levels, you'll be fine.

[rdefino]

My Ph is at 7.6, Fc at 7, TA I just bumped up from 50 a bit. Waiting to test again.

Now I have these HTH 3in tablets that I;m not sure if I should use, or just stay with the bleach and a powdered stabilizer, but the tablets contain:

trichloro-s-triazinetrione 93.6%
zinc sulfate 3.5%
other ingredient 2.9%

available chlorine 84%

as for this statement "As far as the CYA level goes, as long as you follow the Best Guess table to match chlorine levels to CYA levels, you'll be fine."

What is the Best guess table?


thanks

[SunnyOptimism]

My Ph is at 7.6, Fc at 7, TA I just bumped up from 50 a bit. Waiting to test again.

Now I have these HTH 3in tablets that I;m not sure if I should use, or just stay with the bleach and a powdered stabilizer, but the tablets contain:

trichloro-s-triazinetrione 93.6%
zinc sulfate 3.5%
other ingredient 2.9%

available chlorine 84%

as for this statement "As far as the CYA level goes, as long as you follow the Best Guess table to match chlorine levels to CYA levels, you'll be fine."

What is the Best guess table?


thanks

Best Guess Chart is --> here (http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/best-guess-swimming-pool-chlorine-chart.html)

You definitely do not want to use those tablets. First off, they are not even 99% trichlor but contain zinc sulfate and probably other trace chemicals to make the tablet dissolve slowly and/or resist absorbing water. "Good" trichlor tablets (if there is a such a thing ;) ) are 99% trichloro-s-triazinetrione (trichlor).

Your FC, pH and TA look good. You can fine tune those parameters now as you see fit. So now just ditch the tablets and use only bleach to chlorinate your water. Anything else is going to add stuff you do not want in your water. Use the Best Guess chart to set your CYA/FC levels.

Also, keep an eye on the CC's. Combined chloramines are a good way to check pool water health. Clean pool water should have CC's less than 0.5ppm. It's ok for the CC's to spike up a bit every once in a while (in my pool, the CC's go up after rain) but they should come back down to normal levels within 24 hours. If you're seeing CC's above 0.5ppm sustaining for a while, it's a good bet you have some algae looking for a foothold.

[rdefino]

Thanks.

i'll look at getting some Combined chloramines test strips and borates test strips.

Is "Natural Chemistry Liquid Swimming Pool Stabilizer and Conditioner" a good stabilizer to use. I know it was mentioned to used powered since it's cheaper.

Any recommendations for powdered stabilizer?

thanks

[SunnyOptimism]

Thanks.

i'll look at getting some Combined chloramines test strips and borates test strips.

Is "Natural Chemistry Liquid Swimming Pool Stabilizer and Conditioner" a good stabilizer to use. I know it was mentioned to used powered since it's cheaper.

Any recommendations for powdered stabilizer?

thanks

Most test strips are useless, very inaccurate. The only test kit you need for your pool is a Taylor K-2006. It tests all the water parameters you need including CC's.

LaMotte InstaTest borate test strips are ok for testing borate levels. They're not as good as drop tests by Hanna Instruments but those tests are expensive and for boron levels in water much less than what you find in pools. So go with the strips for borates.

As far as stabilizer/conditioner/etc (CYA), I'd advise against liquid forms. It's much more expensive and they usually only provide ~ 30% CYA as the solubility of CYA in liquid form is limited. I use BioGuard Maintain-100 Stabilizer (100% CYA) in 6lbs bottles. You can get it a Patio Pools, online or in other pool stores. 6 lbs is more than enough for a adjustment during the swim season.