A picture is worth a thousand words . . . [Archive]

Pamsel

06-12-2006, 12:51 PM

I thought I'd post some photos of my green pool in the hopes that seeing it might shed some light on my situation. The photos dated 5-23-06 is where the water is clear but there is dark green algae, clearly shown on the steps. The other picture shows that a lot was settled onto the bottom of the pool as you can clearly see where I had vaccumed. This was the day I took these photos to the pool store and was told to use copper algaecide to kill the algae or it would just keep coming back. (That was before I found this forum.)

Second set of pictures are taken today. My water has been cloudy and green like this ever since using the copper algaecide 5/23/06 and again 5/26/06 (one quart each time). On the pictures of the steps, you can see that the water is cloudy, but no visible dark algae anymore. However, the green color and cloudiness persist. I can see that there is a green film on the bottom of the pool. If I vacuum, it definitely is less green, but vacuuming stirs it up and turns the water darker, as does brushing it. Then it eventually all settles back on the pool floor again.

http://www.mtco.com/~aug20/5-23-06.jpg
http://www.mtco.com/~aug20/5-23-06%20(1).jpg
http://www.mtco.com/~aug20/6-12-06.jpg
http://www.mtco.com/~aug20/6-12-06%20(1).jpg

CL holding around 15
PH 8.3
TA 330-340
CYA either 25 or 0 depending on which test I believe. I added more granulated CYA two days ago and have not retested yet.

Any suggestions?

duraleigh

06-12-2006, 01:15 PM

Hi, Pam,

1. You need to reduce your pH....pretty quickly. Get it down in the 7.2 - 7.4 range

2. You indicate your Cl is holding @ 15ppm. I'm not sure what you mean. Do you have a set of current test results? Post them up if you do. Cl will clear up any algae issues and that sure looks like algae.

Post those test results and let us know the last time you added Cl and how much you added.

Folks here will help get your pool sparkling.

PS - also let us know how much CYA you have added. (total)

Bleach=Chlorine?

06-12-2006, 01:18 PM

There are two issues (kinda one) I see here. The pH is WAY to high, there has been discussion here about how Chlorine is far less effective at high pHs. Second, the TA is too high. Is a 1/4 drain and re-fill possible? Otherwise I would search the posts here for lowering the TA (I believe using aeration) and then brining the pH in line as well. That high pH is effectively shielding the chlorine from working.

Pamsel

06-12-2006, 01:39 PM

Well, I guess I'm confused. I was told to concentrate on the CL/algae first and then work on the TA & PH. I have been adding muriatic acid every few days with aeration, but not daily since I was working on algae first.

The levels I posted were my reading this morning. I meant that I am keeping the Cl about 15 . . . can't be exact because I am doing the dilute/multiply method and I can't tell color shades exactly. Last add was 10:00 pm last night - 4 gallons.

Have added a total of 3.75# granulated CYA in the past 7-9 days. First add I did with a knee-high hung in front of my return jet and second dose I put in the skimmer. Both times it seemed to dissipate very rapidly. (I've read somewhere here that it should take several days to dissolve?) I have backwashed a few times since then, so maybe I've flushed it out?

I will go re-test and post up-to-the-minute results shortly. :-)

Bleach=Chlorine?

06-12-2006, 01:54 PM

Pam,
Hold off on adding the CYA till last, you want that chlorine as 'unihibited' as possible. If you are currently working a plan of attack recommended by members here then continue that. I only wanted to point out that a high pH will inhibit what you are trying to do.

Pamsel

06-12-2006, 01:59 PM

Here are current test results:

CL ~ 10-12 (again, I have trouble being sure of shading with dilute/multiply method) Will add another 2 gal CL right now, to get back up to 15
PH ~ 8.0 (I added 12 oz acid about an hour ago) How frequently should I add acid?
TA ~ 430 :( Will this come down once the PH is in line?
CYA ~ 40 (had already added second dose a couple of days ago)

I am running filter 24/7 and have been aerating 24/7 for past few days

Simmons99

06-12-2006, 02:14 PM

Here are current test results:

CL ~ 10-12 (again, I have trouble being sure of shading with dilute/multiply method) Will add another 2 gal CL right now, to get back up to 15
PH ~ 8.0 (I added 12 oz acid about an hour ago) How frequently should I add acid? Careful here - is sounds like you have a test kit that is not able to handle high chlorine levels (over 10ppm) It may be giving you a false high reading. Test this again when your chlorine levels are below 10ppm.
TA ~ 430 :( Will this come down once the PH is in line?
CYA ~ 40 (had already added second dose a couple of days ago)

I am running filter 24/7 and have been aerating 24/7 for past few days

Have you had your water tested for copper? It seems to have a really "pretty clear" green to it.

Pamsel

06-12-2006, 02:24 PM

Yes, it was tested on Friday. Copper was .2. Pool store said that wasn't significant. Is it?

Simmons99

06-12-2006, 03:44 PM

Try private messaging mbar - personally I think you could have copper suspended in the water giving it the green look - but mbar can verify. You can try a sequestering agent for copper.

Copper tends to suspend in high chlorine levels. Have you used a copper algecide or used a source of water that may have metals (like well water)?

duraleigh

06-12-2006, 06:44 PM

Hi, Pam,

Thanks for posting those test results.

Get your pH down....whatever it takes to get it down to 7.2 -7.4

I'm beginning to think that's copper as well. I just don't know cause I've never seen it.

You seem to have held your Cl up pretty well so algae is looking less likely. Mbar or someone will be along to answer your copper question in the other forum.

Work on Alk after you solve your green issue.

Pamsel

06-12-2006, 09:32 PM

Just tested again - Cl dropped to 10-11 range by evening. Will add another 2 gal Chlorine tonight ~ want to keep it up in shock range until I'm sure that green is copper and not algae.

PH just tested 7.8, so it's coming down. Will add more acid now, then CL in about an hour.

Have posted on the metals forum as well, so will hope for an answer there soon.

Yes, Simmons, I used 2 qts of copper algaecide, one 5/23 and 5/26. The water's been green ever since, but it was very dark green two weeks ago and that I'm sure was algae. But I've put so much Chlorine in the pool these past two weeks, I don't know how any algae can still be alive in there! :p

Thanks!

mbar

06-13-2006, 12:07 AM

Pamsel, I tried to pm but your box is full, so I will put it down here:

I am not sure the green is from the copper. I think that the high ph and alkalinity are making it hard to get rid of the last of the algae. If the water is green because of the copper, then the copper seems to be in suspension from the sequestering agent. High ph and high chlorine will make stain - so maybe that is what is keeping the water green. From the picture of the step, it doesn't seem to have any stain on it, so if it is copper, then how to get rid of it? I'm thinking that you have to get your ph way down, and your alkalinity down too. I'm not sure if the ascorbic acid would work on the water being green - I never tried it, but it may be a good way to go, because the ascorbic acid will certainly lower your ph and alkalinity. I just don't know - I thought the sequestering agent is supposed to hold the copper in suspension and not turn your water green, and I think there is a difference between a chelating agent and a sequesterant - maybe someone else can chime in with the answer? But If it were me, I would really get the pool acidic and see what happens, also if you cut a leg off a pair of tights and put it in the skimmer basket, it will filter out a lot smaller particles.

I can only imagine how frustrated you must be - keep us informed and please keep asking any questions you may have. This is a puzzle, but it probably has a simple solution - we just have to find it.

Pamsel

06-13-2006, 12:21 AM

Thank you, Marie. I am using more acid now to try to get my PH in line and am aerating 24/7 to help bring down the TA. I also am still trying to keep my CL at shock level, in case there still is live algae, so I might be fighting against myself, trying to do both at the same time.

I'm not familiar with the ascorbic acid treatment you mentioned. Is there a discussion about that here somewhere? I will also get a pantyhose liner in the skimmer basket tomorrow. Anything that might help is worth trying.

Frustrated, yes! Very! My husband just keeps telling me to drain it and start over, but with a vinyl liner, that's not so easy either.

It's after 11:00 pm now, so I will test again in the morning and see if I'm making progress on lowering the PH and TA. I added 12 ozs of acid twice today, so will check in the morning and will post my results.

mbar

06-13-2006, 08:40 AM

What is your fill water's alkalinity? Sometimes it is good to drain some water and refill, but first I would really try to lower the ph down to 7.0 - 7.2. You may as well try this first, since you have a lot of chlorine in your water now. See if it makes a difference, if not then I will explain the ascorbic acid treatment.

Pamsel

06-13-2006, 10:30 AM

Test results this morning:

CL 14-15
PH 8.0
TA 340
Water appearance unchanged

I added 12 ozs acid twice yesterday and my PH has not gone down. Is that because the TA is so high? If so, doesn't the PH have to come down first in order to get the TA down? I feel like I'm in a vicious cycle. I have to be gone for the day. Since the CL is high, I'm going to add about 24 ozs acid this morning and hold off on any more CL until I get home, mid-afternoon and will test again then. Also, I know from this forum that the high PH makes my CL less effective and the high CL can make my PH test results skewed, right?

I haven't tested my fill water, Marie. I will do that when I get home, since I need to be leaving soon. I did drain down about 1/3 two weeks ago when I first came to this forum.

I am considering calling a local service I just heard about called The Pool Doctor - supposedly they will come and service/treat the pool until it's right. Trouble is, that will cost me more $$$$ and will probably fill my water with who knows what chemicals. On the other hand, if he will clear up the water, maybe it's worth it?? I don't know...

I have 1/2 a bottle of BioGuard "Pool Magnet Plus" which says on the bottle it "ties up heavy metals and prevents stains caused by metals". However, I remember using this a couple of years ago and whatever it did, it seemed to pull the metals out of the water and drop them to the bottom of the pool. I remember that every time I put fill water in the pool, the bottom of the pool would get covered with yellow-brown stuff that I had to vacuum off the bottom of the pool. It was very frustrating at the time, but I'm wondering now if it would pull copper out of the water, in case that is the problem here.

Any thoughts on all of this confusion?? :confused: :p

Pamsel

06-13-2006, 07:18 PM

Well, my 6:00 pm CL & PH are:

CL 6.0
PH 7.8

I am convinced that I still have algae or I don't think I'd be losing that much CL during the day - even on a sunny day. I took another picture of the steps tonight, after not brushing or vacuuming for a day so that you can see what has settled out on the top step and see how yellow the second step is, due to what has settled on it. How can algae still be alive and growing after all this chlorine?? :confused:

http://www.mtco.com/~aug20/6-13-06.jpg

I asked about this last week but didn't pursue it - but how do I know if I have a filtration problem? I am thinking that may be it. It really doesn't matter what I pour into this pool - NOTHING CHANGES!! :eek: I have put almost 85 gallons of Chlorine in the pool and in the past two weeks, 2 gallons of acid with almost no results. Tonight, my filter pressure guage is spasmodically hovering between 35-40 and it has always run steadily at 18-20. Even when I backwashed, it didn't change, so I don't know if that means the guage broke today or if this indicates something going on with the filter.

I am getting desperate for some answers!

KurtV

06-13-2006, 10:26 PM

Pam, Your alkalinity is very high. That's what is making it difficult to get your pH down. Your high pH is probably limiting the effectiveness of your chlorine and that may well be contributing to your difficulty with killing the algae.

I'd get the pH down (no matter how much acid that takes), keep your chlorine at shock levels, and have patience. You can lower the alkalinity once the algae problem is resolved.

Best of luck.

haze_1956

06-13-2006, 10:34 PM

I see from the threads you are at this for 2 weeks, so I can well imagine your frustration level must be way up there.

Problems are, Pool is still green, PH will not lower and Filter pressure too high.

Pool green, from Algae or Copper ?
Googling found this info – The best way to deal with copper is with a chelating agent, not a sequestering agent. The copper products used, as swimming pool algaecides, are typically in a chelated (stabilized) form.
This leads me to think that the Copper Algaecide should not turn the pool green, but if you think it has, you would want to add a “chelating agent” . From what I read, chelation stablizes the copper and keeps it in solution, stopping the pool being green. But only by replacing the water will the copper actually be removed from the pool

Ph will not lower-
The whole aeration process seems simple. Use Acid to maintain lower PH to 6.8-7.0 and then use aeration to lower Alkalinity.
But I seem to recall reading in the forum that using aeration above 7.0–7.2 will increase PH. I may be mistaken on that, I am sure someone will chime in should that be incorrect. But I am wondering if your aerating is actually keeping the PH high. Perhaps you need to stop aerating for now, and keep adding acid, until PH drops to 7.0

Filter Pressure high–
I think that is for the Pool guys who really know the equipment. But I believe it is low pressure means problem before the pump, and high pressure means problem after pump.

I’m also wondering what you have coming out of the filter when you backwash?

Best of luck, we are all rooting for you !!
.

Pamsel

06-13-2006, 10:36 PM

I just read on a lowering alkalinity thread that one should get the PH down and then aerate to lower TA - that aeration will raise PH. Is this correct? I've been aearating 24/7 for most of two weeks, trying to lower my PH & TA. Have I been doing this wrong and causing my PH to stay high? I really am confused as to what to be working on and in what order. Some say to get the algae taken care of first and then work on the PH. Others say get that PH and TA down now! I really am confused about all of this. I have mentioned a couple of times that I'm aerating, but until now, no one mentioned that it could be adding to my high PH problem. I guess I have so many issues going on, no one can catch them all!

Just saw your message, Haze. I think I need to go stop the aerating for now. When I backwash, I do not get much coming out. The water is greenish at first, but clears up fairly quickly...not much else. A couple of weeks ago, the water was brown for a good minute before clearing up when I backwashed.

haze_1956

06-13-2006, 10:40 PM

Same thought at same time - It's like telepathy !! LOL

I saw the picture had a lot of dirt on steps so something is dying.

Pool really should be a lot clearer after 2 weeks of high CL

I agree with stopping aeration and see if the acid will then lower PH

High pressure and no real dirt on backwash could mean filter is clogged. Maybe time to open it and check how junked up the sand is.

mbar

06-13-2006, 10:53 PM

Pam, I was wondering about your filter too. It seems not to be filtering too well - since there is no change in the appearance of the water no matter what. I am convinced now that it is algae - I think something is wrong with the filter, especially that there isn't much in the backwash. Your water seemed to be cleaner in the other photos after vacuuming to waste - if it was just the color of the water, there wouldn't be all of the stuff on the bottom of the pool. You really will have to dose the pool with acid. Yes, while aerating it, your ph will rise as your alkalinity lowers - but only when you get your ph as low as 7.0 - 7.2. So I don't think you have been doing anything, becuase the ph has never been low enough to lower the alkalinity - I hope you understand this - if you don't please ask, I will try to explain it better. I would ask in the pool construction and repair forum about what could be wrong with the filter. I was trying to find out the difference between chelating and sequestering the metals, but they both seem to do the same thing. I know the chelating copper algacides have the copper binding so that it doesn't fall out onto the pool, but so does the sequesterant. If someone else can explain it I would really appreciate it.

waterbear

06-13-2006, 10:55 PM

VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!!! DO NOT TRY AND TEST OR AJUST YOUR pH WHEN THE CHLORINE LEVELS ARE ABOVE ABOUT 10 PPM. YOU WILL GET INTERFERANCE AND A FALSE HIGH pH READING. From two of your posts above:
CL 14-15
PH 8.0
and
CL 6.0
PH 7.8

Sorry for shouting like that!;) Here are my thoughts, I could be wrong.:eek:
The green color does look like copper, even with the sequesterant you might be oxidizing the copper with the high clorine levels. I think the stuff in the pool is dead algae now and the filter is not taking it out for some reason. What kind of filter do you have? You might want to make sure it is working properly. Is the pressure reading normal? If it is a sand filter you might have channeling in it. You can clean the sand if that is the case. If it is a sand filter you can also add a bit of DE to it (enought to raise the pressure 1psi) This can help it filter out the finer stuff. Try letting the chlorine drop to normal levels and hit it with a seqesterant again. Jack's Magic Blue Stuff is designed specifically for copper. You might want to try that and see if it clears the green. Get your chlorine and pH levels to where the bottle says before treating. If it works THEN lower your TA!

mbar

06-13-2006, 11:39 PM

Pamsel

06-14-2006, 12:27 AM

We replaced the sand last summer, so I've not been too concerned that the sand is junked up. But, it's probably worth taking a look. I'll have to have my husband get involved with opening the filter - that's a bit out of my league I think. :(

I went out tonight about 10:00 pm and could see stuff settled on the bottom, so swept the entire pool again and then added 4 gallons of CL to get it back up to shock level. Am waiting a couple of hours and then going to add more acid again. Then I'm going to bed and will see what it looks like in the morning!!

Edit - I typed the above message before seeing your posts, Marie and Evan. But I guess for now, I'll stay with the plan I posted, since I have already added the CL and it does seem important to get the PH down. I also stopped the aeration for now. My pressure guage is now above 45, but everything sounds normal out there - would there be any difference in the sound of the filter running if there's a real problem? Funny thing is that it was reading normal (18-20) this morning before I left for the day and when I came back this evening, it was over 30 and each time I check it, it's gone higher. Also, normally when I backwash, the pressure drops to 0 but tonight it stayed high, so I'm wondering if it's broken??

waterbear

06-14-2006, 12:50 AM

Waterbear, Pamsel had put in a lot of sequesterant, that is why I am having trouble thinking it is copper - although the first set of pictures she has here (the last two) the water looks clear green, which does look more like copper coloring the water. But she is losing chlorine fast
Yes, during the day and she has very little CYA in the water...she said either 0 or 25 ppm! Her chlorine has been holding at night and burning off during the day!
, and the stuff in the last picture she posted looks more like algae than anything.
I suspect it is dead algae and for some reason her filter is not getting it out
My thought is that if she lowers the ph and alkalinity, the chlorine will be more effective in killing the algae, plus you know high chlorine levels and high chlorine are what make metals fall out of suspension - there doesn't seem to be any staining on the steps in the first set of pictures.
But she has put in a LOT of sequesterant!
This is a very confusing case - maybe you can help - you are great with the chemistry - what is the difference between a chelating product and a sequestering product?
From my understanding very little, It has to do with how it deactivates the metals. chelating agents have a heterocylic ring struture that forms a complete ring with the metals, sequestering agents form stable non reactive compounds with the metals but are not necessisarily in a ring structure. Chelating agents will sequester metals but not all sequesterants chelate. EDTA (reagent #3 in the CH test is a chelating agent. It chelates the calcium in the water and when there is non left to react with the indicator it changes color from pink to blue. The indicator itself is a chelating agent that forms a pink complex when metal are reacted with it and blue when there are non. EDTA is a stronger sequsterant than the calcon indicator so it will 'unhook' the calcium and other metals from the calcon and 'hook' it to itself Phosphonic acid derivatives are what is usuallly found in metal seqeusterants. This group of chemicals tends to create very stable compounds that are more resistant to temperature and ph effects than EDTA, Sequestering is a much broader description. Chelation is a specific type of sequestering. The terms tend to be used (incorrectly) interchangably. By the way, sequstering products are rated by their 'chelation value or ratio' ( how stable a compound they form)!
I also think there may be a filtering problem - because there isn't much coming out with the backwash - and the pressure is at 40, when it ususally is aroung 18. Could channeling be the problem?
Possibly, or maybe broken laterals in the filter. I think it's time for a complete filter breakdown and inspection, and sand cleaning or replacement.
You can read Pamsels other posts in the metals forum, and maybe you have some ideas that can help. Thanks! Hope this clears things up. It's confused the heck out of me!:rolleyes::D

Pamsel

06-14-2006, 12:55 AM

One thing, waterbear, my last CYA reading done at home, after the pool store test showed 0, was 40, which makes more sense to me since I did put 3.75# of granulated stabilizer in during the past two weeks.

I guess the next step is an inspection of the filter. I may need some guidance on that, but I'll get my husband involved here and see what he says.

haze_1956

06-14-2006, 06:43 AM

I went out tonight about 10:00 pm and could see stuff settled on the bottom, so swept the entire pool again

The following should be done after you are sure the filter is working properly

If you can see stuff that has settled on the bottom, vacuum it up ! Don't sweep it back into suspension. And when you are done vacumming, leave the vacuum facing upward at the bottom of the pool. This will draw the dirtier water from the bottom through the hose instead of just the cleaner water from the top through the skimmer. Unused pools tend to filter the top water more (no bathers to mix it up). You were also aerating, which decreases mixing even more.

I also think that if the water isn't mixing well, there is a chance the algae at the bottom isn't getting high enough doses of CL to be killed.

I am suggesting this as I have seen no mention of the pool having a bottom drain.

.

Pamsel

06-14-2006, 09:52 AM

When I said I swept the pool, I did mean that I vaccumed the pool. I'm not sure if you mean vacuum to waste when you say vacuum it up. I did not vacuum to waste, but did vacuum.

I do have a bottom drain and have the valve set 50/50 drain/skimmer. I have not ever left the vacuum facing upward in the bottom of the pool.

This morning my pressure guage had gone completely around and was spasming at 0 with a loud hum now. I turned off the filter and put a message on the construction repair forum.

What next??

haze_1956

06-14-2006, 01:20 PM

Next step is to get the filter working properly. Without the filter the rest won't matter.

If the filter hasn't really been removing much, the sheer volume of organic matter may be too much for the CL to oxidize.

Keep going Pam, this pool must not defeat you. The honor of PoolForum rests on your shoulders. - (cue poolforum theme song)

Seriously Pam, I has been a long battle with no results so far, But you WILL get it cleared up. It's just chemistry and water filtration. Its a matter of finding out whats not working right, fixing that and back at it.

Pamsel

06-14-2006, 01:47 PM

:rolleyes: I dunno Haze. I'm ready to cover it back up and forget it's out there!.

haze_1956

06-14-2006, 01:57 PM

:rolleyes: I dunno Haze. I'm ready to cover it back up and forget it's out there!.

But it's only June with a lot of hot weather ahead.

In August you will look at your crystal clear pool and think, "I made that happen" Then dive in for a nice refreshing swim.

And won't that be SWEET !!

.

Rangeball

06-14-2006, 02:03 PM

Several years ago, I had a sand filter and relied on bad pool store info.

I had a point where my pool looked like your last pic. I was told to vacuum, so I did. All the algae straight into the filter. I fought a similar battle that you are going through with only input from the pool store who sold me droves of stuff on their recommendation. Their final solution was that my sand must have gone bad.

When I went to replace the sand, the top several inches were pure dark green. Looked like spinach. There was so much algae, I could never get ahead of it. It would never backwash out.

I replaced the sand, fired back up and things finally straightened out. In retrospect, if I had vacuumed to waste when I had all the visible algae, I probably could've avoided a lot of headache and wasted money.

Morale of the story to me was if I see algae, I get it out of the pool, not into the filter.

Pamsel

06-14-2006, 03:28 PM

:D Haze, I'll try to keep that image in mind!

Thank you Rangeball - I've done a lot of vacuuming to waste, also. I've vacuumed both ways.

I appreciate your input.

smallpooldad

06-19-2006, 06:43 PM

ChuckD

06-20-2006, 10:22 AM

Two thoughts.

Could it be that the type of sand is not correct for pool filters, that is why the pressure readings are so odd? The other thoughts on the filter are also strong possibilities, such as too much algae, broken laterals, etc.

Would it not be easier to just drain the pool and start from scratch?

I say stay with it! Our whole city's rooting for you Pam! It was on the news last night!
OK, not really but I'm with staying with it. What you're learning now would not happen if you just dumped it and refilled. You'll keep this experience in your head and in the not so distant future it'll be there for you, instead of having to extract it from this forum.

My US$0.02: Fix the filter. There's definitiely something wrong, but mine's a DE so I have no specifiic advice. Just fix that first.

Then, forget the Clorine until you are positive what your pH and Alk. numbers are. As has been said, high Cl will distort pH. Forget it. Let it go. Fix your pH/Alk.

Then shockshockshock (and CYA too).

C.