New Salt System, algae is recurring regularly

[jhk49]

In the past I have been a firm believer in the PoolForum, have used it often and have been a contributor. Previously I was using a BBB method and did not have problems. However, I have recently had a salt system installed as I was going to be away on vacation for some time and did not want my helpful neighbor to be in charge of adding bleach everyday.

Since the installation of the salt system, I have had a problem with keeping green algae out of my pool. The IntellChlor salt system is set at 40% and my chlorine levels maintain themselves at about 7.0. I have tried the next lower setting, i.e.. 20% and the chlorine levels drop to about 2.8. The other problem that I seem to be facing is that my pH often tends to go up faster than it once did. I have adjusted with muriatic acid based on the pool calculator website but it continues to trend up faster than I would think it should. Unfortunately, I do not have a test kit for how much salt is in the pool ..... all I know is that 13 bags were added for start up about 2 months ago.

My particulars are as follows:

I live in southwest Georgia
25,000 gal pool, vinyl liner
well water fed
reading as of today, pH 7.7, FC 7.0, ALK 80
salt system on 40%

My pool is located with several trees nearby, I continue to clean out leaves, sticks, bugs and frogs from my skimmer and the polaris bag at least once every 3 days or so.

When using the BBB method, I had no problems with algae unless I didn't tend to adding bleach regularly. I had thought the salt system would provide for that regular addition of chlorine without the work for me.

Does anyone have a suggestion on how to get this pool to maintain itself free of algae for at least a week without me having to watch it everyday.

Jim K.
Leesburg, GA

[Watermom]

What is your CYA reading?

[SunnyOptimism]

One of the problems you are going to run into with the IC40 fr Pentair (I own one too) is that if it is not matched with a Pentair control system, like the IntelliTouch panel, then the only output control you have is on the cell itself. The Pentair cell only allows for output control in increments of 20% which is often way too course for doing fine FC adjustments. As you noted, if you set it to 40%, your FC is too high (possibly, depends on your CYA level) and if you go to 20%, your FC is too low.

@Watermom nailed it - you need to start by measuring your CYA level first and then that will tell you what your FC level should be.

Also, once an algae bloom starts, a SWCG is useless in fighting algae. This is true for ALL SWCG! I know all the sales literature talks about "BOOST Mode" and "Superchlorination" but that's all sales mumbo-jumbo. Once you get an algae bloom, you have to fight it the good old fashion way with lots of bleach, maintenance of shock level FC and patient measuring each day to ensure that you're maintaining enough FC to kill the algae.

So, here's the prescription -

1) Figure out what your CYA level is. This will then tell you your daily target FC level and what your shock level is
2) Use the standard BBB approach to killing off an algae bloom - SHaPE (Shock, Hold and Persistently Evaluate...I know, it's a stupid acronym). Get your water up to shock level, hold it until all the algae is dead and clean your pool thoroughly.
3) Once your pool is clean of algae, start adjusting SWCG output percentage and pump run times to get the FC you need. You might try 40% for 8 hours per day run time and see what that gets you.

Good luck and keep posting results...

[EDIT]

As for rising pH, that is very common with SWCG pools. The SWCG cell produces chlorine gas which eventually dissolves and forms hypochlorite/hypochlorous acid. The process of producing chlorine is very alkaline. Eventually the pH rise is neutralized by the acidic reactions that occur when chlorine kills stuff or oxidizes organics, but initially the pH rises. So yes, you will need to add more acid than you did previously to combat the pH rise. There are other methods for alleviating the pH rise, but that is not at all the most urgent priority right now. Cleaning up your pool's algae bloom is the most important.

[END-EDIT]

[CarlD]

With an SWCG, the FC level must be at least 5% of the CYA level to MAINTAIN sanitation.

The BBB method and an SWCG are NOT different systems. BBB is a methodology, a system YOU practice.
SWCG is simply a way to introduce chlorine into your pool, continuously. No more than that.

You should be always using the BBB method. BBB stands for "Bleach, Borax and Baking Soda" but that's really only a quickie shorthand for the principle of testing your water religiously, and adjusting it as it needs it. Daily simple Chlorine and pH testing lets you get ahead and stay ahead of problems. An SWCG can make it so you don't have to do so much, but it's just making it easier.

But now you have algae so you should either turn the SWCG off or pretend it's not there, and use plain old bleach or liquid chlorine to dose your pool up to the shock level indicated for your CYA level, and keep the FC level there, testing 2-3 times a day, and adding bleach/liquid chlorine to raise it.

Let's get the algae killed first, then worry about the pH, and finally, after that, adjusting your SWCG to be optimal.

[jhk49]

Well, I certainly learned somethings today. I didn't realize that you could go back to bleach once you had gone to a salt system. The CYA is presently at 32. What level of chlorine should I reach to shock the pool and for how long do I need to hold it?

As suggested, I will get the algae bloom taken care of and then address the output level of the salt system. I am presently running the pool pump at the summer time levels of 10 hours per day. I think I can drop it to 6 hours per day and provide a FC range of 3.0 to 6.0.

Thanks for the continue support.

Jim Kempf
Leesburg, GA

As my Pennsylvania Dutch Grandmother would say, "Too soon we get old, Too late we get schmart."

[CarlD]

There's a lot to learn, Jim, but it's not really all that tough.

Pool care (water maintenance) comes down to 2 1/2 things:
1) Sanitation: That's chlorine to kill pathogens and break down bio matter
2) pH: How acidic or alkaline your water is.
2 1/2) Stabilizer to determine the proper level of chlorine.

Total alkalinity is mainly a buffer for pH, once you've eliminated obvious causes for its rise or fall. After that, if pH is rising too much, you generally lower TA. If pH trends down, you raise TA.
Calcium Hardness is useless in vinyl pools unless it's too high, then scaling can happen. In masonry pools (concrete, tile, etc) sufficient calcium in the water helps keep the calcium from leeching out of the walls.

For correct stabilizer levels, see the "Best Guess" table:
http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/best-guess-swimming-pool-chlorine-chart.html

Not sure how you got a CYA # of "32". I presume you either got it from a pool store or guessed at it.

Normally, for a CYA of 30 to 50, we suggest a shocking level of 15ppm for your FC (free chlorine), and, generally, a maintenance level of 3-6ppm.

But you have an SWCG system and those usually require a CYA level of 60 to 80ppm. Correspondingly, with an SWCG, an FC level of at least 5% is recommended, which would be 3 to 4. But you CAN go higher if you need to. I generally do.

BTW, I use the BBB method and have an SWCG--an Autopilot. Remember: SWCG stands for salt water CHLORINE generation, and in your pool, chlorine is chlorine. All of us who have SWCGs occasionally supplement with other chlorine forms, but most usually bleach/liquid chlorine.

[SunnyOptimism]

I'll chime in since I'm a pentair IC40 owner. The Pentair manual says max CYA of 50ppm but ignore it. 60-80ppm is the range you want. I run at 70ppm and that works great for my pool.

[jhk49]

We have had a rainy last few days here in south Georgia, but I have managed to add cyanuric acid to the pool so as my latest readings are as follows: CYA 70, pH 7.4, FC 8.2. I have disconnected the IC40 and have added 484 fl. oz. of 8.25% bleach. This should raise my FC to 20.0. I will check all chemicals tomorrow mid-day. Then my plan is to vacuum the pool as required, reconnect my SWCG system and decrease my pump running time to about 8 hours per day (it had been running at 10 hrs per day. It is cooling off in my area to about a high of 75 and lows in the mid 50's. Any comments on the plan would be most welcome.

[SunnyOptimism]

You need to check your water chemistry more frequently in the beginning of the process. Once you add the bleach, check it again in 1 hour to see if you're at the correct level. Even in clear water with a possible (but not visible) algae bloom, your FC will drop very rapidly in the beginning as the chlorine oxidizes biologic and organic matter. I'd be willing to bet a bottle of bleach that your FC will not be 20ppm in 1hour.

Other than that, good plan. You can actually keep running the IC40 during the process, the high FC level won't hurt it. You only need to shut it off when doing an overnight chlorine loss test.

Oh, and only check FC at this point. The phenol red pH test doesn't work at FC levels greater than 10ppm.

[jhk49]

As to my "guesstimate" of an FC of 20, it was based on the internet pool calculator that I have used numerous times with good results. Based on what I added 484 fl. oz. of 8.25% bleach and a starting FC of 8.2 the new level should have been 21 ppm. I did this at about 11:30 am, it is now 3:28 pm and I rechecked the FC as you recommended .... it came out to be 22.5 ppm. Instead of the bleach, how about a another bottle of chlorine titrating reagent (R-0871).

Be that as it may, it has been sunny but relatively cool down here in south Georgia, maybe that has something to do with it. I will continue to check and thanks for your confirmation of my approach and the tip that I can leave my SWCG system on.

[SunnyOptimism]

Happy to be wrong :)

And yes, when cleaning up the pool water, the chlorine titrating reagent goes FAST! I always keep a spare 2oz bottle in reserve. I hope you're using the 10mL (0.5ppm/drop) water sample size? That will save you on reagent.

Cooler weather is a big help. The algae, if present is less active and doesn't reproduce as fast.

One other point which I hope your aware of - all pumps/water features should be running while you do this. You want to make sure chlorinated water is reaching every part of your system and you should leave the pumps running for 24 hours while you wait to test again. In fact, you should dose again this evening after sundown to get your water back to 20ppm and then measure again in the morning before direct sun is hitting the pool to see what your overnight chlorine loss is. If, by morning, your water is clear, your CC's are 0.5ppm or less and your overnight loss of FC is less than 1ppm, then you are good to let the water drift back to normal FC.

Be sure to keep an eye on your filter pressure as well. After all is said and done you'd probably want to give it a good backwash to clean out any accumulated dead junk.

[jhk49]

Shall I leave my SWCG "on" during the overnight test?

[SunnyOptimism]

No.

Since the overnight test is attempting to determine the loss of chlorine due to the organics and biologicals in the water (no UV degradation at night), you do not want a source of chlorine adding FC to your water. Just get the water up to shock level, leave the pumps running and turn off the IC40.

Good luck.

[Watermom]

If you lose no more than 1ppm of FC overnight and have less than 0.5pm of CC, we typically recommend one additional day of leaving the chlorine level high for added insurance and then you can let it drift down.

[SunnyOptimism]

If you lose no more than 1ppm of FC overnight and have less than 0.5pm of CC, we typically recommend one additional day of leaving the chlorine level high for added insurance and then you can let it drift down.

Totally agree with that! Thanks for the clarification.

[SunnyOptimism]

Shall I leave my SWCG "on" during the overnight test?

So what's up? How did your overnight tests go?

[jhk49]

As previously discussed, after adding the bleach to the pool at about 11:30am on Thursday and checking the FC at about 3:30pm, the level was 22.5 ...... then again checking about 7:00pm, the FC was about 22.0 (Thursday, 10/16/14). The pump ran all night and the recheck in the morning (about 8:30 am) the FC level was 19.5 (Friday, 10/17/14). I was concerned that the chlorine was not eliminating the organics, and the pool had somewhat of a green cast to it. I let the pool pump to continue to run until about 6:00pm and rechecked the FC which came in at 19.5 ppm. The pump did not continue to run last night but did kick on in the morning according to schedule, I checked the FC again (about 9:30 am on Saturday, 10/18/14) and it recorded as 18.5 ppm. And, the pool looked much better than previously, the green cast is gone.

The weather has been sunny but not real warm, mid 70's for the high and mid 50's for the lows. I am hoping that we have taken care of the problem. However, I am concerned with the differences in the FC during the overnight of the first comparison (between Thursday and Friday). Could the testing procedure at 10 ml sample provide a greater opportunity for error when using the titrate liquid and multiplying the result by 0.5 ppm? What do you all think?

[SunnyOptimism]

The 10mL test will have a +\- 0.5ppm error (Taylor error is basically +\- 1 drop)

However, you had an OCL (overnight chlorine loss) of 2.5ppm. Therefore, proper procedure is to immediately readjust your pool water back up to shock level and hold it there all day. If no one is able to test and adjust during the day, then you could go over the shock level by a few ppm's and then check again in the evening.

Basically you need to maintain shock chlorine levels until your OCL is 1ppm or less. I know it sounds tedious, and it is. Typically, the algae kill rate is high in the beginning and then the process tails off towards the end as your dealing with organic oxidation. It sometimes helps to backwash or clean the filter during this process to remove a lot of the dead algae (think of it as algae corpses rotting in your filter medium and emitting lots of organics into your water). Filter backwashing speeds up the tail end of the process which is the oxidation of organic compounds into volatile chloramines.

[jhk49]

Again, thanks for the info. I have just about run out of R-0871 but I have ordered some. Additionally, I am going out of town next week. So I plan on doing as much as I can this week toward solving the problem .... and, if need be restart in earnest upon my return.

[SunnyOptimism]

If your CYA is still in the low 30's, then use a float with 3" TriChlor tablets in it while you're away. Just make sure that the tablets are 99% trichlor and nothing else. It is perfectly OK to use trichlor with an SWCG. In my 16k gallon pool, three 3" trichlor tablets raise my CYA by ~8ppm and they take a good 10 days to fully dissolve from the float. Using that while you're away can help maintain some FC in your pool so you won't come back to as bad a mess if the algae starts in again. You can raise your FC above shock level before you leave with plain bleach and then throw the float in with a bunch of tabs and you should be good.

[Watermom]

If you are going to put some trichlor in a floater, make sure your pH is in the high 7s to allow some wiggle room for it to drop while you are gone. Trichlor is very acidic.

[SunnyOptimism]

If you are going to put some trichlor in a floater, make sure your pH is in the high 7s to allow some wiggle room for it to drop while you are gone. Trichlor is very acidic.

Hi @Watermom!!

I just wanted to say that I have seen this warning a lot (in various context, not just from you) and I have to say that TriChlor pucks have never had any substantial effect on my pH. Now my pool water normally likes to rise in pH, I have an SWCG and a gunite pool so all those factors probably contribute to trichlor' lack of effect on my pH. Also, trichlor tabs take forever to dissolve in a float for me (typically 10-14 days for three 3" tablets to fully dissolve) so while the water locally around the float might be low pH, my pool water pH barely moves.

Truth be told, I rarely use pucks (only when my CYA needs to be bumped up) so I'm not regularly exposing my pool to trichlor.

Just thought I'd share my thoughts on the subject....

[CarlD]

Hi @Watermom!!

I just wanted to say that I have seen this warning a lot (in various context, not just from you) and I have to say that TriChlor pucks have never had any substantial effect on my pH. Now my pool water normally likes to rise in pH, I have an SWCG and a gunite pool so all those factors probably contribute to trichlor' lack of effect on my pH. Also, trichlor tabs take forever to dissolve in a float for me (typically 10-14 days for three 3" tablets to fully dissolve) so while the water locally around the float might be low pH, my pool water pH barely moves.

Truth be told, I rarely use pucks (only when my CYA needs to be bumped up) so I'm not regularly exposing my pool to trichlor.

Just thought I'd share my thoughts on the subject....

You have other factors acting to raise pH. Many people have a constant rising pH with SWCGs (I don't--don't know why). Many people also have rising pH while their masonry pool is curing. So all your tri-chlor was doing was offsetting some of the upward pressure on pH.

I went away once for 2 weeks (9 or 10 years ago) and left 4 floaters full of Trichlor tabs. When I came back, my CYA went from 30 to 70, my FC was about 5 or 6, but my pH had dropped below the measurable bottom of 6.8. 4 boxes of Borax later I was back in the 7's. At the time, here, there wasn't much discussion of the acidity of Tri-chlor tabs, merely of the additional stabilizer. So I asked the question and the answer came back: Tri-chlor is highly acidic.

[SunnyOptimism]

You have other factors acting to raise pH. Many people have a constant rising pH with SWCGs (I don't--don't know why). Many people also have rising pH while their masonry pool is curing. So all your tri-chlor was doing was offsetting some of the upward pressure on pH.

I went away once for 2 weeks (9 or 10 years ago) and left 4 floaters full of Trichlor tabs. When I came back, my CYA went from 30 to 70, my FC was about 5 or 6, but my pH had dropped below the measurable bottom of 6.8. 4 boxes of Borax later I was back in the 7's. At the time, here, there wasn't much discussion of the acidity of Tri-chlor tabs, merely of the additional stabilizer. So I asked the question and the answer came back: Tri-chlor is highly acidic.


The SWCG on balance is actually a pH neutral process. Initially, during the production of chlorine from salt, the chemical reactions raise the pH. But eventually, when that chlorine oxidizes organics or kills algae, those processes are inherently acidic. So on balance an SWCG pool should see no pH change. @chemgeek has some very extensive posts on the chemistry of the SWCG process.

But yes, trichlor is acidic and I have both borates and other factors that suppress the pH drop from that. I was just commenting because pH dropping from trichlor is not inherently an issue for me and I should be more cognizant to warn others about its acidity.

Wow, that's a crazy pH drop though!!

[CarlD]

Yeah, theoretically SWCGs are neutral. Theoretically. And I guess the theory works for me. But far too many of our members have experienced a rising pH from SWCGs to discount their experience. In fact, so many have had it happen it is the norm, and my non-rising pH is not the norm.

Just remember if your feet are getting frostbite and your hair is on fire, on average you're comfortable.

[kelemvor]

My swcg definitely increases pH as it operates. Regular doses of muriatic are on the menu in my pool. I presumed it was due to the bubbles and therefore co2 out-gassing that occurs when the swcg is in operation. My cell gave up the ghost this year and I ran the pool without the swcg. pH was stable the whole time.

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php/16849-Minimizing-pH-rise-in-SWCG-pools there's a post that talks about the phenomenon. I'm pretty sure I've seen chem geek write in detail about the process - but I can't find the thread right now.

[CarlD]

Your SWCG bubbles? How's that work? Doesn't it just feed into the return?
(Of course I understand that IF it bubbles, it's aerating and raising pH)

[kelemvor]

Your SWCG bubbles? How's that work? Doesn't it just feed into the return?
(Of course I understand that IF it bubbles, it's aerating and raising pH)

When the cell is energized, many small bubbles come out of the returns. They're easily visible. If you turn the cell off, no bubbles.

[CarlD]

When the cell is energized, many small bubbles come out of the returns. They're easily visible. If you turn the cell off, no bubbles.

Mine definitely does NOT do that! There must be some gasfication going on in the process.

[kelemvor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PRkCRRVJgo
Here's a little video. After it's been on for 15 minutes or so, there are far more bubbles than you see here. I turned it off so I could show off vs on and realized after taking 15 minutes of video that it would be VERY BORING to watch all of that.

The off/on cycle was to show that the bubbles weren't from a suction side leak.

[CarlD]

I WANNA SEE ALL 15 MINUTES!!!!!

(no, not really :D )

[FormerBromineUser]

I would watch and advance the timer to 15 minutes... If I had the link!

[kelemvor]

yeah sorry, maybe tomorrow I'll be inclined to make a better video when it's daylight.

[FormerBromineUser]

We're even now! I accused you of knowing about freezing pipes, and you deprived me of a cavitating.... oops, a captivating video! Heehee

[SunnyOptimism]

Gentlemen,

It's hydrogen gas bubbles. They are produced in the cell. One electrode produces Cl which mostly dissolves as hypochlorite/hypochlorous acid and the other electrode evolves H2 gas which is not as soluable in water

Definitive ChemGeek thread is here (http://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/558-Pool-Water-Chemistry)

The pH rise is both due to aeration/CO2 out gassing and the production of hypochlorite which is alkaline.

[kelemvor]

Yup, there ya go. That's the thread I was thinking of. I didn't realize it was on the other forum.

[SunnyOptimism]

Just remember, for fire safety, no lighting matches near your returns :p

[JimK]

Mine produces visible bubbles at the returns as well. I use to have rising pH, but since lowering TA to about 80 (I use to keep it around 100) the pH rise has pretty much stopped. It's been 2 full seasons since I've added acid.

[SunnyOptimism]

Mine produces visible bubbles at the returns as well. I use to have rising pH, but since lowering TA to about 80 (I use to keep it around 100) the pH rise has pretty much stopped. It's been 2 full seasons since I've added acid.

Agreed!

I keep my TA at 70-80ppm and borates at 50ppm. Since adding the borates to my water in August, my MA additions went from almost every other day to once every 5 days. In fact, I just had a recent dilution to my pool water and I need to add about 8 lbs of boric acid to get my Borate levels back up. I like to use boric acid instead of borax as the pH rise from borax is too worrisome to me. I'd need to add MA along with it or else I'll get cloudy water from calcium. Boric acid has the added benefit of bumping my pH down a bit on addition so no need to worry about calcium issues.

But even with all that, I always know when the cell is running by the little bubbles coming out of the returns.

[JimK]

Agreed!

I keep my TA at 70-80ppm and borates at 50ppm. Since adding the borates to my water in August, my MA additions went from almost every other day to once every 5 days. In fact, I just had a recent dilution to my pool water and I need to add about 8 lbs of boric acid to get my Borate levels back up. I like to use boric acid instead of borax as the pH rise from borax is too worrisome to me. I'd need to add MA along with it or else I'll get cloudy water from calcium. Boric acid has the added benefit of bumping my pH down a bit on addition so no need to worry about calcium issues.

But even with all that, I always know when the cell is running by the little bubbles coming out of the returns.

Yeah, I also keep borates at about 60 and use boric acid so I don't have to add acid with it.

I did use borax at spring opening when pH was a little low.

I like seeing the bubbles as it lets me know the cell is still working.

[SunnyOptimism]

Yeah, I also keep borates at about 60 and use boric acid so I don't have to add acid with it.

I did use borax at spring opening when pH was a little low.

I like seeing the bubbles as it lets me know the cell is still working.

Me too. I like to tell my little kids that the pool is farting, makes them laugh like crazy. I also do the TA and FC tests in front of them and when the TA test goes from green to red, I tell them that someone pee'd in the pool. They all go wide-eyed and start blaming each other. It's totally hilarious! :D

[JimK]

:D Lol!

[CarlD]

Mine produces visible bubbles at the returns as well. I use to have rising pH, but since lowering TA to about 80 (I use to keep it around 100) the pH rise has pretty much stopped. It's been 2 full seasons since I've added acid.

I've kept my TA between 60 and 80 for the last several seasons, and only have the SWCG for the last two, so that may be why I've never had a rising pH problem. I haven't pushed borates, hasn't been necessary so far.

[SunnyOptimism]

I've kept my TA between 60 and 80 for the last several seasons, and only have the SWCG for the last two, so that may be why I've never had a rising pH problem. I haven't pushed borates, hasn't been necessary so far.

I believe there are also some other @chemgeek posts which show that low TA is desirable in an SWCG in order to minimize calcium scaling as the local environment inside the cell is so alkaline that the CSI is very positive relative to the bulk pool water. Also borates help to reduce scaling inside the cell as well because calcium borate does not or can not form.

You might give borates a try someday after you get bored with solving the world's problems ;) I was quite impressed with the changes to my pool water chemistry. Plus, it adds a little extra algae-death insurance to the water.

[CarlD]

I believe there are also some other @chemgeek posts which show that low TA is desirable in an SWCG in order to minimize calcium scaling as the local environment inside the cell is so alkaline that the CSI is very positive relative to the bulk pool water. Also borates help to reduce scaling inside the cell as well because calcium borate does not or can not form.

You might give borates a try someday after you get bored with solving the world's problems ;) I was quite impressed with the changes to my pool water chemistry. Plus, it adds a little extra algae-death insurance to the water.

If you don't like my style you don't have to participate in threads I'm commenting on. If you don't like that the administration team of Pool Forum actively participate in threads, you don't have to participate in Pool Forum. I'm a volunteer, like my fellow moderator, Watermom, and our PF Support Team. We've all been helped by those who came before us, and try to help those who've come after us. I've been here about 12 years now, I think. We get NOTHING but the satisfaction of helping other pool owners--and maybe learning something new along the way.

Some forums allow and even encourage members to treat each other with disrespect, discourtesy and condescension, to insult and demean each other. Pool Forum isn't one of them.

[SunnyOptimism]

If you don't like my style you don't have to participate in threads I'm commenting on. If you don't like that the administration team of Pool Forum actively participate in threads, you don't have to participate in Pool Forum. I'm a volunteer, like my fellow moderator, Watermom, and our PF Support Team. We've all been helped by those who came before us, and try to help those who've come after us. I've been here about 12 years now, I think. We get NOTHING but the satisfaction of helping other pool owners--and maybe learning something new along the way.

Some forums allow and even encourage members to treat each other with disrespect, discourtesy and condescension, to insult and demean each other. Pool Forum isn't one of them.

Carl,

Dude!! Obviously I am totally miscommunicating here with you. I WAS JOKING. That was meant to be funny, not an insult.

I realize that writing posts on a forum removes all visual/non-verbal clues from normal human conversation and that we have to be careful in how we write things but I've read that post back a bunch of times and I just don't see it as an insult.

Is there some way you prefer, in written format, to offset things in order to indicate sarcasm or humor, because i seem to be leading you into inferring malice with what i write and that is totally NOT the intent.

You have my apologies again for a poor post but can you please help me to understand you a bit better? Or, at the very least, just take a lot of what I say with several grains of salt....

[FormerBromineUser]

I have been on edge lately with links outside of the pool forum. Just my state of mine right now. More pizza might help.

[SunnyOptimism]

I have been on edge lately with links outside of the pool forum. Just my state of mine right now. More pizza might help.

Thanks FBU.

I get what you're saying and I get the fact that being a forum moderator, especially on a site as big as Pool Forum means being in contact with lots of different personalities, not all of whom are friendly and/or nice. And yes, a lot of people are down right rude and demeaning and purposefully argumentative....that's called being a "troll". I am NOT a "troll". Anyone who knows me personally knows that I am a friendly person with a kind demeanor and willing to give the shirt off my back to help others. But yes, I do like to joke around and have fun with my writing and I find sarcasm funny...

I also realize that I am new to the Pool Forum and I know very few people and I don't have much insight into other user's personalities and writing styles. However, one thing I try really hard to do (and I by no means get it right all the time) is this - I don't assume malice in what other people write. I always try to assume that a person writing a post is writing out of a genuinely inquisitive and benevolent nature and that they are not trying to hurt others or offend. Perhaps, after being here for years (assuming I don't get banned for writing something stupid), my attitude on that will change, but I hope not....

[chem geek]

Let me clarify a few points since there are some conflicting pieces of information or conclusions taken from my threads. As was noted, SWCGs produce hydrogen gas bubbles. If you don't see them during the day when the SWCG is on, then set it to operate at night with pool lights on and you'll be much more likely to see the tiny bubbles.

The production of chlorine in an SWCG is the same as adding hypochlorite to the pool so it raises the pH when the chlorine level rises. However, the usage/consumption of chlorine is an acidic process that exactly counteracts this effect so if one is maintaining the FC level then using an SWCG is pH neutral. There are other ways that the pH can rise including carbon dioxide outgassing. This is why lowering the TA level can help since it relates to how much the pool is over-carbonated.

As for reducing scaling in the SWCG cell, it's not just the TA but maintaining a slightly negative saturation index (say, -0.2) that can help. Using 50 ppm Borates also helps because it cuts the amount of pH rise near the hydrogen gas generation plate roughly in half.

There are other ways the pH can rise including curing or degrading of plaster, but also if chlorine gas from the SWCG doesn't fully dissolve and outgases instead. This can happen with short pipe runs from the SWCG to the pool. To minimize both the increased aeration from the hydrogen gas bubbles and the amount of potential undissolved chlorine gas outgassing, a higher CYA target (with proportionately higher FC target) can reduce the chlorine loss from the UV in sunlight and let one turn down the SWCG on-time.

As for the pH effect from Trichlor, as others have noted, the effect will vary depending on whether the pH would be rising if Trichlor were not used. Nevertheless, for every 10 ppm FC added by Trichlor it not only increases CYA by 6 ppm but also lowers TA by 7 ppm (after accounting for chlorine usage/consumption). If one doesn't replenish their TA level (or have significant evaporation and refill with water high in TA), then the TA can get to zero and the pH crash which can cause pretty serious damage.

[CarlD]

Carl,

Dude!! Obviously I am totally miscommunicating here with you. I WAS JOKING. That was meant to be funny, not an insult.

I realize that writing posts on a forum removes all visual/non-verbal clues from normal human conversation and that we have to be careful in how we write things but I've read that post back a bunch of times and I just don't see it as an insult.

Is there some way you prefer, in written format, to offset things in order to indicate sarcasm or humor, because i seem to be leading you into inferring malice with what i write and that is totally NOT the intent.

You have my apologies again for a poor post but can you please help me to understand you a bit better? Or, at the very least, just take a lot of what I say with several grains of salt....

It's simple: Treat other people with the same respect you want to be treated with. Hiding a disparaging insult inside a "joke" is generally not how to do it.