HELP - leak maybe? advice

[xoroniox]

Ok i have a 28x14 inground diamondbrite pool from my calculations 13,000gallons, the problem i have recently noticed is the water level dropping about 2-3 inches per 24hours while the filter is on, when it is off maybe 1inch of drop in water level in 24hours, i cannot see any leaking plumbing around the filter or any exposed pvc plumbing, nor can i see any water or wet spots around the pool. i need any help or advice, how to go about finding the leak? is it something a do-it-yourself home owner can repair and anything else which can help me in this situation. Thanks in advance


one other thing i have noticed while the water level is below the skimmer and the barracuda is off, the water level is good which leads me to believe the leak is somewhere between the skimmer pvc to the filter, but how do i confirm this? and does this make sense to people with experiance in this type of situation. Thanks

[waste]

I strongly believe that the leak is in your return line(s). I would have the returns pressure tested, if you know how to do it and can, you'll save quite a few bucks. If not, get a reliable company to do the test, and make the repair/ replacement. You did not specify what kind of pool you have, nor it's age.

In the future please include as much info on the pool as you can to get more and BETTER responses to your questions.

[GutierrezPlastering]

Yes the age of the pool as well as is the deck new/old? may have alot to do with it. Possibly the deck may have moved or while the masons where setting there forms around the perimeter for the deck may have hammered a stake into one of your pipes.

[xoroniox]

the pool is 30years old, diamondbrite was last done 4years ago, and the deck is the same age, concrete deck with a pebble top finish which has not been messed with other than pressure cleaning in years. I will do some research on pressure testing the return lines i believe i would be able to do it with the right tools and knowledge. any advice or information on this test would be very helpful, thanks for both of your help.

there have been no leaks or problems with the pool other than a new pump installation in the last 4years, since i have owned the house/pool, any other info needed please ask.

[duraleigh]

Not too uncommon to find a suction side leak in the skimmers. The decking shifts and cracks them. Careful visual inspection will frequently find them. If so, they're fairly easy to fix....hope it's that simple.:) :)

Dave s.

[pmdelage]

If the pool has a main drain with a hydrostatic valve consider whether the valve has lifted due to pressure of ground water when pool water was low. Sometimes when this happens trash gets in the valve and it does not close completely. Simple solution is to swim down and lift valve momentarily and hope trash is flushed out as valve closes. Then wait and see if that solves the problem.

[xoroniox]

If the pool has a main drain with a hydrostatic valve consider whether the valve has lifted due to pressure of ground water when pool water was low. Sometimes when this happens trash gets in the valve and it does not close completely. Simple solution is to swim down and lift valve momentarily and hope trash is flushed out as valve closes. Then wait and see if that solves the problem.

Thanks for your help, so to check this i would swim to down to the main down, does it matter if the filter system is on or off? and open the main drain cover and check for the valve because i am not sure if my pool has that valve or not. if it does lift the valve and close it and hope that does something.

[xoroniox]

Not too uncommon to find a suction side leak in the skimmers. The decking shifts and cracks them. Careful visual inspection will frequently find them. If so, they're fairly easy to fix....hope it's that simple.:) :) Dave s.


right i agree the most probable cause is the suction side skimmer plumbing however i am unsure how to find the location of the leak, i have checked carefully all exposed plumbing and its sealed tight, but it must be leaking because i lost 2" over night while the skimmer was on and when it was off i lost 1/3" maybe and it was a 90degree day here in south florida. thanks for your help

[mwsmith2]

Not too uncommon to find a suction side leak in the skimmers. The decking shifts and cracks them. Careful visual inspection will frequently find them. If so, they're fairly easy to fix....hope it's that simple.:) :)

Dave s.

This is exactly where my leak was, in the skimmer throat. I was loosing about 1" a day. I hired a leak test company (@ $400) to find it. They found it by squirting phenol red through a long, thin tube. Wherever the leak is, it sucks the red dye right in.

Michael

[xoroniox]

This is exactly where my leak was, in the skimmer throat. I was loosing about 1" a day. I hired a leak test company (@ $400) to find it. They found it by squirting phenol red through a long, thin tube. Wherever the leak is, it sucks the red dye right in.

Michael


hey thanks for your reply i got plenty of phenol red on hand and thin clear plastic tubing which i use for my fish tanks that will work perfect for this application. however once they found the leak on your skimmer troat piece how did they or you go about fixing this problem? the more help the better because this sounds really close to being my problem that or the plumbing coming from the skimmer which i am going to dig up tomorrow and see if any of that leaks. i will update and thanks for your help :)

[waste]

As I tried to point out in my original post, it sounds like a broken return line - that's where I'd look first.
The pool looses a heckuvalot more water while the pump is running, therefore water is being FORCED through the leak.
If the filter system is below water level, it could be backwash blow-by - I don't think so though (but I can't put my finger on why not :( ) Also a pump problem would have been noticed.
A suction side leak would draw air into the pump, causing priming problems and bubbles, certainly not exacerbating the leak.
A stuck hydrostat valve or a cracked skimmer housing would cause water loss but, the amount of water lost daily would remain the same, whether or not the system was running.
It's always possible that you have multiple leaks in the pool, but given the discrepency between the water loss with the pump running vs. without, I'll lay odds on finding the main leak on the back (effluent) side of the pump

[mwsmith2]

Yup I agree, if it leaks down faster when the pump is running, it is definitely on the effluent side of the pump.

As for how they fixed the leak in the skimmer throat, they used waterproof epoxy that the kneaded together and stuffed in the crack. They said it wouldn't be a permanent fix, but 1.5 years later, it's still holding fine. If it gives up, I'll go buy some more and stuff it in there! :D

Michael

[duraleigh]

Hey, I'm not gettin' hung out here by myself...I think it's pressure side, too!!:D :D

The increase with the pump on slipped by me and I probably should've never brought up suction side as a first culprit.

After all that, I can see a remote scenario where it could be a cracked skimmer and I'd check it just cause it's easy to get to with the phenol red.

I agree that pressure check will find your issue...almost assuredly. :)

Dave S.

[xoroniox]

As I tried to point out in my original post, it sounds like a broken return line - that's where I'd look first.
The pool looses a heckuvalot more water while the pump is running, therefore water is being FORCED through the leak.
If the filter system is below water level, it could be backwash blow-by - I don't think so though (but I can't put my finger on why not :( ) Also a pump problem would have been noticed.
A suction side leak would draw air into the pump, causing priming problems and bubbles, certainly not exacerbating the leak.
A stuck hydrostat valve or a cracked skimmer housing would cause water loss but, the amount of water lost daily would remain the same, whether or not the system was running.
It's always possible that you have multiple leaks in the pool, but given the discrepency between the water loss with the pump running vs. without, I'll lay odds on finding the main leak on the back (effluent) side of the pump

Hey, ok one thing is bothering me let me explain a little better.

the first test i did was fill the pool 2-3" above the skimmer level fill a bucket of water and mark both the outside and inside water level after that i turned on the filter and left it alone for 12hours, the result was 2" loss in water.

the second test i did i left the water level just below the skimmer, closed the valve so the skimmer suction line doesnt pull air/water and fill the bucket of water again and mark the inside and outside water level, turned on the filter and left it for 12hours the result was 1/3" water loss.

the third test i did was leave the water level just below the skimmer and fill the bucket mark the inside and outside water levels and leave the filter off and the water loss was about 1/3" maybe a drop less.

the final test i am doing is fill the pool 2-3" above the skimmer and mark the inside/outside water levels of the bucket and leave the filter off for 12hours and check results. i will post results tomorrow

Now if the leak was in the return lines to the pool wouldnt the water loss be the exact same during/after test 1 AND test 2? What i am planning to do as of now is dig up the earth to find both the suction and return plumbing and check the length of both for leaks, if any is found cut/replace pvc with new, if no leaks no big deal i just put the dirt back in the hole and waste a few hours work which i am willing to do.

I really appreciate everyones help on my problem and i am waiting until we work out the kinks here until i actually dig up or attempt any repair.

[xoroniox]

also to note no leaks by the pump/motor/filter, i will try to conduct the phenol red test on the skimmer housing tomorrow sometime in the afternoon, NEEDS to be mentioned anytime the filter system is turned on after priming coming out of ONE return line is a constant flow of tiny bubbles but not very many at a time. as far as the pressure test i am still looking for research on this test online and i would love to conduct it if i am able and have the tools.

Thanks again to everyone.

[duraleigh]

Okay, since my buddy, Oxoroniox (man, you need a better username:) :) ) isn't completely convinced about the pressure side leak, I'm going to post my "pie-in-the-sky" scenario about it being in the skimmer.

I can envision a crack in the skimmer running diagonally to the water flow and very near a point where the water is forced to change direction. With no flow through the skimmer, the sides of the crack stay virtually together and there is almost no leak.

When the pump comes on, however, there is enough pressure from the redirection of the water that the thin plastic sides gap open a little allowing quite a large volume of water to escape. If this is feasible, I do not think this scenario would intake air.

Okay, Okay, I'll start drinking less from now on;) ;)

[Poconos]

This stuff was posted in the old forum and therefore lost so here it is again. The leak test jig is simply a tubeless tire valve and pressure gauge mounted to a piece of PVC pipe and then coupled to the system, wherever you can, using a straight section of auto radiator hose and clamps of the appropriate size. You can use a cheapo pool pressure gauge, metal threads, instead of the 100 PSI gauge I used. I drilled a slightly undersized hole in the pipe and just threaded the gauge into the pipe using the threads on the gauge to cut the pipe. Or, the proper way, use the right tap. Tire stem can be found at any auto store. Drill the right size hole and push the stem through from the inside, as you would replacing a tubeless tire stem. For both the gauge and stem I smeared silicone seal on the inside and let it cure. To pressure test just plug the return lines and pressurize the pipes and wait to see if the pressure bleeds down. I do this ever Fall and Spring just to make sure nothing has happened. Hope this helps.
Al
PS...when pressurizing the system make sure the jig is really securely tightened to the pipe. If it blows off it can do some serious damage as a projectile. Also don't stand where it can hit you if it does fly off. 25 PSI should be more than adequate for testing the pipes. (ajs-1)

[pmdelage]

Thanks for your help, so to check this i would swim to down to the main down, does it matter if the filter system is on or off? and open the main drain cover and check for the valve because i am not sure if my pool has that valve or not. if it does lift the valve and close it and hope that does something.

I would think that any IG pool that has a chance of ground water being higher than pool water will have a hydrostatic valve. This is what keeps the pool from becoming a boat and rising out of the ground if the ground water gets higher than the water in the pool. You might go to a pool store and get a look at one so you can see that it is a spring loaded one way valve that should let water in but not out. Mine is part of the main drain box. Good luck, Paul

[xoroniox]

I would think that any IG pool that has a chance of ground water being higher than pool water will have a hydrostatic valve. This is what keeps the pool from becoming a boat and rising out of the ground if the ground water gets higher than the water in the pool. You might go to a pool store and get a look at one so you can see that it is a spring loaded one way valve that should let water in but not out. Mine is part of the main drain box. Good luck, Paul


hey ok im gonna head over to my local pool store to get a look @ it anyway even if it has nothing to do with my problems with is a very important thing for me to know about because i drained my pool not 2 long ago for another reason and i was very scared about the "boating" issue IG pools here in florida have so i didnt drain it all the way anyway thanks for your info ill get on that.

[xoroniox]

This stuff was posted in the old forum and therefore lost so here it is again. The leak test jig is simply a tubeless tire valve and pressure gauge mounted to a piece of PVC pipe and then coupled to the system, wherever you can, using a straight section of auto radiator hose and clamps of the appropriate size. You can use a cheapo pool pressure gauge, metal threads, instead of the 100 PSI gauge I used. I drilled a slightly undersized hole in the pipe and just threaded the gauge into the pipe using the threads on the gauge to cut the pipe. Or, the proper way, use the right tap. Tire stem can be found at any auto store. Drill the right size hole and push the stem through from the inside, as you would replacing a tubeless tire stem. For both the gauge and stem I smeared silicone seal on the inside and let it cure. To pressure test just plug the return lines and pressurize the pipes and wait to see if the pressure bleeds down. I do this ever Fall and Spring just to make sure nothing has happened. Hope this helps.
Al
PS...when pressurizing the system make sure the jig is really securely tightened to the pipe. If it blows off it can do some serious damage as a projectile. Also don't stand where it can hit you if it does fly off. 25 PSI should be more than adequate for testing the pipes.

Hey,
AWESOME thanks for this reply i think it will help alot. great info

[xoroniox]

UPDATE! found the leak and some cracks in the top of the skimmer housing, i used phenol red and a long thin piece of clear fish tank pvc air tube to get some red dye in there and watch the water drain, it was a small crack and hole and now i see why so much water was leaking and it was at the top of the skimmer housing where the skimmer white pvc housing meets the tile/concrete diamondbrite pool shell, thank you to everyone for their help and advice

I am going to my local pool store to find some epoxy or something to fill and seal the leak. any advice on what to use and where to get it? (home depot?) i will be fixing this late tonight or tomorrow, thanks agian

[Poconos]

For anyone following this thread I'll say it here and probably more times later. Go get some beets at the grocery store, chop them up, boil, make a lot of red dye, then eat the beets. Gives you a lot of dye and good food to boot. Cheaper then phenol red or other dyes.
Al

[KurtV]

Al, Good advice I'm sure, except for eating the beets; those things are disgusting.

[waste]

UPDATE! found the leak and some cracks in the top of the skimmer housing, i used phenol red and a long thin piece of clear fish tank pvc air tube to get some red dye in there and watch the water drain, it was a small crack and hole and now i see why so much water was leaking and it was at the top of the skimmer housing where the skimmer white pvc housing meets the tile/concrete diamondbrite pool shell, thank you to everyone for their help and advice

I am going to my local pool store to find some epoxy or something to fill and seal the leak. any advice on what to use and where to get it? (home depot?) i will be fixing this late tonight or tomorrow, thanks agian

What you're looking for is some waterproof 2 part epoxy, mix equal parts of 2 compounds - the resin and the hardener. Depending upon how visible the repair will be ( visable by pool users) and how estheticly pleasing you want the patch to be you have a couple of options. Pool stores often carry a product that cures white, which is often prefered for visable pool usage, however plumbing and hardware stores sell products that seem to be a little more durable and easier to use (they come in one tube, or stick), however they seem to come in shades of gray. I'm sure either product will perform as you need.
Hope this repair solves the problem! :)