Test results on new pool in Tucson

[FormerBromineUser]

Remember to go through PoolDoc or WaterMom's links whenever buying on Amazon! And remember also, that Amato Industries discounts shipping for multiple items upon check-out (not before). Check especially your supplies of : 0871. 0870, 0004, and 0013. Most keep well over time and stored out of sun and cool-ish.

[FormerBromineUser]

Uh, sorry. Another thought. At 500G, can you just drain and refill that spa? AND please make a signature so we won't forget your spa in the future!

[Wilco]

I did accidentally drain it about 3 weeks ago, not sure how I did it or how it refilled. How's that for competence?
.

[Wilco]

I'll see where things are in am, again with monsoon rains, it may work for me a little

[FormerBromineUser]

Okay. Will wait to hear. Maybe monsoon rains could refill that spa! But really? Not sure how you drained and refilled? That sounds like the systems are connected somehow. I know nothing about hydraulics but that doesn't make sense to me.

[Watermom]

Regardless, it's not the pollen that is causing your chlorine demand.
Actually, pollen in the water will increase chlorine consumption. Anything organic in the water will. It is not the entire cause of his issue but just wanted to clarify that anything organic in the water (pollen, leaves, etc.) will use more chlorine.

[Wilco]

Retested this am, spa ph at 7.2, chlorine levels held at 17 at both pool and spa. I think I'm making progress ( but won't let foot off gas yet)

[FormerBromineUser]

...just wanted to clarify that anything organic in the water (pollen, leaves, etc.) will use more chlorine.
Important clarification, thanks!

[BigDave]

I'm not sure if this helps or not, but, mary jo had a very similar situation in this thread: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php/25802-Clear-but-no-chlorine (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php/25802-Clear-but-no-chlorine?highlight=mary). The pool had high CYA and chlorine demand after an extended period of insufficient chlorination. The good news is that it was eventually resolved by maintaining shock level FC for a very long time.

[FormerBromineUser]

Mary Jo (see above link) read your thread and wondered about your CC. Last reading I saw was on the 14th or so. Spa? Pool? Either greater than 0.5?

[Wilco]

Cc is still 0. Cl this am was 17., and I added a gallon between the spa and pool, retested at 5 pm, cl was 20 in both. I think I have this thing on the run, just not sur what it was.

[FormerBromineUser]

We may never know what it was; sometimes it just doesn't matter if it's fixed. Who knows what you inherited with your pool.

My friend's inherited pool (which I mentioned before), had thick gobs of algae in the insides of their jets. Still fighting demand there cause I think there has to be algae in the feeder lines which we can't manually clean. Not sure what we're gonna do about that...

Keeping your bleach additions >=25 will only help.

I did ask for input on your pool/spa connection, but no responses yet. Still seems strange to me that you could accidentally drain the spa but I already admitted my ignorance of spa issues. It hope that the spa will hold the key for you and that stability is around the corner!

[Wilco]

Maybe it was when I put the vacuum in there?

[FormerBromineUser]

Not a hydraulics person but would that explain refill??? The responses I requested were from spa people, not you, btw. Was looking for their expert input, not as a criticism of you! :o

BTW, like your pic on your profile! Make that your avatar or better yet a pic of the pool and spa. Signature too? Here's mine for guidance: 26K gal 20x40 rectangular IG vinyl pool; Apr 2014: New pump, liner, auto-cover, & water; Pentair Whisperflo 1HP pump on 24/7; Pentair Trition sand filter; Cover/Star CS-500 auto cover; Taylor K-2006, OTO

[Wilco]

Ah. Go bears.

[FormerBromineUser]

Hahaha! I'm more of a hockey fan, especially with all the football players in trouble lately! Beaides, hockey keeps me busy during non-pool seaon. Go Blackhawks!

Randy

[Wilco]

Yep, big hawks fan as well. Born in Chicago. Cl 17 this am, and I'm out of testing drops, more on the way but will have to guess for a bit.

[FormerBromineUser]

Until your reagents arrive, use your new OTO kit. This link will help you interpret the results with high chlorine levels: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php/23555-Interpreting-OTO-results-by-color

Sept. 23: first preseason game!

[Wilco]

Perfect, I was stuck thinking it would only test up to 5.
I'll work on the profile, who knows, maybe I can help someone else at some point.

[CarlD]

You can also use the CarlD (patented)( :) ) Shot Glass Method:
Mix 1 shot of pool water with 1 shot of steam distilled water in (say) a Pyrex mixing cup. Pour into the OTO cell and read, doubling the value. If it STILL is over "5"ppm (actually 10ppm), then...
mix 1 shot of pool water with 2 shots of steam distilled water. Now triple the value of the reading which, when at "5" means it's 15ppm. You can do it with 3 shots of distilled as well and then "5" ==> 20ppm.

However, the more you dilute, the greater the chance of introducing inaccuracy.

[FormerBromineUser]

The signature profile will allow us at a glance to remember your pool data without having to search back in the thread for the info. The bigwig experts really don't have time to do that. Maybe we could have caught the "somehow connected" spa issue earlier! Notice how it should contain volume, equipment details, other relevant details like attached spa with overflow into pool, and your test kits.

Also, consider laying down a contribution and become a subscriber; it keeps the lights on at the forum!

[FormerBromineUser]

Wilco, what's happening?

[Wilco]

Success is whats happened. After shocking with a myriad of bottles of chlorox and keeping cl above 20 for several days, I let it drift down slowly and now have had stable levels in the 5-7 range by adding a gallon about every other day or every third. Ph started drifting up a bit last few days so added a little acid. Looks great, no sign of anything wrong.
Starting to cool into the 60s here at night so kids are not as eager to swim with cooler water temp. Don't really want to consider a cover as I have an oddly shaped pool.

[FormerBromineUser]

Woot! Great news! Kudos on your persistency; hope you get some warm temps to enjoy the rewards!

[PoolDoc]

Glad you've had some success.

One caution for future reference: we've advised store-brand bleach for years, to help pool owners escape the confusion of the multiple 'flavors' of Clorox bleach. But now it turns out Walmart is adding 'flavors'!

So, here's the key: ONLY purchase bleach that shows "8.25% sodium hypochlorite".

No %? No purchase! "Bleach" without a % can be 1% or less!

[Wilco]

So noted. Actually I was getting 3 packs of Clorox at Costco for $8 each, better than walmart generic, and maybe a little more reliable strength-wise.
Now that cl levels are stable (5-7) I am noticing pH is wanting to creep up. I've added acid twice in a week. Before, it seemed like my pool water would naturally drift lower in ph, and in was adding the borax. Could be cooler temps at night. tA is 110, not much change. Will monitor for a while, but I was under the impression acid use would be rarer.

[Wilco]

Perusing other threads I noticed it mentioned that aeration can raise pH. I have had the water feature on 8 hrs/day when pump is on ( two lion head spouts). Could that do it? The timing fits.

[CarlD]

Yes. Absolutely. Water features like fountains and waterfalls cause aeration, which raises pH.
We use it as a tool for lowering total alkalinity as it is the only way to raise pH without TA going up.
Splashing kids, pointing returns at the surface so they bubble or spray also increase aeration.

[FormerBromineUser]

Lion head spouts??? Do you dress them like the Art Istitute does in Chicago? Tomorrow is opening game for the Hawks... By the way, love the word peruse.

[PoolDoc]

If you have a concrete pool, lowering the carbonate alkalinity may not be something you want to do. Aeration raises pH by lowering acid carbonates (carbonic acid and dissolved carbon dioxide). This in turn results in reduced alkalinity (bicarbonates and carbonates).

Also, the note about the bleach products was just a caution -- I really had no idea whether it had been an issue for you.

[SunnyOptimism]

If you have a concrete pool, lowering the carbonate alkalinity may not be something you want to do. Aeration raises pH by lowering acid carbonates (carbonic acid and dissolved carbon dioxide). This in turn results in reduced alkalinity (bicarbonates and carbonates).

Also, the note about the bleach products was just a caution -- I really had no idea whether it had been an issue for you.

I'll chime in on aeration by saying that I leave my spa spillway running along with the pool (one return to the spa and three returns to the pool, 50/50 split on the three-way valve) and I run my waterfall 2X per day for 45 mins at a time to make sure the basins in the waterfall always "see" chlorinated water everyday. With all that, my pH sits happily at 7.7 and rises every 3-4 days while my TA is solidly 70ppm. I don't like to drop my pH much below 7.6 or else my CSI get s a bit too negative for my comfort and my alkalinity drops.

If rising pH is a problem for the OP, I would suggest adding 50ppm borates to the water to help control pH. I did back in August and my acid additions went from every other day to once or twice a week. Before borates, my pH liked to sit at 7.6 (seemed to hover there and then rise) but now it likes to "settle" on 7.7 for a few days before rising.

Please Note - Adding borates DOES NOT REDUCE the total amount of acid needed to reach a certain pH level. It only lengthens the intervals between acid additions. SO you will still be adding as much acid as before, just not as often.

[Wilco]

Thanks all, and hello fellow tucsonian. I wish I had a spa spillway, I just have a 4x6" overflow vent from the spa to the pool, which I overaccounted for initially, and ignored the potential variation in the water chemistry balance difference that could occur between the two.
The water feature is just an independent 2 spouts that bleed off the pump, so running them lowers the efficiency, but it looks pretty.
I'll think about the borates and follow the trend for now. Good info on the aeration effect, thanks.
I definitely see how the cooler nights are reducing cl demand. Between the August heat and the probable algae bloom that was living under my radar, the bleach use was insane. Kids swimsuits faded noticeably.

[SunnyOptimism]

Thanks all, and hello fellow tucsonian. I wish I had a spa spillway, I just have a 4x6" overflow vent from the spa to the pool, which I overaccounted for initially, and ignored the potential variation in the water chemistry balance difference that could occur between the two.
The water feature is just an independent 2 spouts that bleed off the pump, so running them lowers the efficiency, but it looks pretty.
I'll think about the borates and follow the trend for now. Good info on the aeration effect, thanks.
I definitely see how the cooler nights are reducing cl demand. Between the August heat and the probable algae bloom that was living under my radar, the bleach use was insane. Kids swimsuits faded noticeably.

Yup, I'm over on the east side of town.

Just completed my first full year with the pool. I had a nascent algae bloom S-) back in May that almost exploded on me but I caught it in time. Having learned about the BBB method before the full summer heat kicked in is what saved me. I had to dump ~ 30% of my water due to a high CYA level (150ppm) but as soon as I did that and cleaned out all the algae with a 3-day SHaPE process (Shock, Hold and Patiently Evaluate....I like silly acronyms!), my pool water was clear all summer long while my neighbors fought algae blooms left and right.

Adding the borates is definitely an optional procedure to consider. Honestly, I waited because I wanted to understand the "life-cycle" of my pool water better before adding another variable to the mix. It's surprisingly easy to do (I used boric acid instead of the Borax/Muriatic Acid method) but there are few conditions you have to follow to get it right.

Enjoy the pool!!

[Wilco]

My cya is 100-110, previous owners probably relied on tricolor pucks it would seem. Was going to see if it went down over winter. I have a pebble tec pool with multicolored tiles on rim. Horrible scaling build up. I have used pumice ( go through it way too fast), de scaler spray ( not a chance) paint scraper ( lots of forearm fAtigue) and recently a chisel and hammer ( use correct angle to avoid tile chipping). Really looks like hell. Any thoughts?

[SunnyOptimism]

My cya is 100-110, previous owners probably relied on tricolor pucks it would seem. Was going to see if it went down over winter. I have a pebble tec pool with multicolored tiles on rim. Horrible scaling build up. I have used pumice ( go through it way too fast), de scaler spray ( not a chance) paint scraper ( lots of forearm fAtigue) and recently a chisel and hammer ( use correct angle to avoid tile chipping). Really looks like hell. Any thoughts?

Your CYA is only going to "naturally" decrease VERY slowly, ~2-3ppm/month at best during the winter. My suggestion, if you want to reach a lower level faster, is to drain and refill. Taking you water level down by 25-30% would put you in a much more manageable range. Just my opinion, as others feel 100ppm is OK to run at since you'll just use more bleach that way.

As for scale, Arizona Bead Blasters (http://www.arizonabeadblasting.com/) used to service Tucson. I'm not sure if they do anymore. Salt blasting calcium deposits is the better way to go. If the process is tuned right, you blow away all the Ca scale without any damage to tile or PebbleTec. It costs money, but unless you have your own salt blasting equipment, it might be worth saving you arms the trouble. Pumice stone will definitely scratch your tile surface and won't help at all on the PebbleTec or rock surfaces. Diluted muriatic acid can help a bit but you'd better wear gloves and face gear to protect yourself.

[Wilco]

Looks like they will come to Tucson for $75 fee. Very nice guy contacted me back. Thanks, might tie it in with draining the pool a bit which they need to do anyway.

[Watermom]

Your CYA is only going to "naturally" decrease VERY slowly, ~2-3ppm/month at best during the winter.
This statement is not necessarily true. Some pools lose all of their CYA over the winter. We see it all the time. When this happens (CYA biodegrades), you are often left with ammonia in the water as a byproduct and a huge chlorine demand upon opening. No way to tell which pools this will happen to, unfortunately.

[SunnyOptimism]

Looks like they will come to Tucson for $75 fee. Very nice guy contacted me back. Thanks, might tie it in with draining the pool a bit which they need to do anyway.

Cool. Let me know how it goes, I was thinking about buying my own salt blasting equipment to do the job but if they do good work for you, that would be good to know. My scaling isn't too bad but I wanted to do the job over the winter.


This statement is not necessarily true. Some pools lose all of their CYA over the winter. We see it all the time. When this happens (CYA biodegrades), you are often left with ammonia in the water as a byproduct and a huge chlorine demand upon opening. No way to tell which pools this will happen to, unfortunately.

Thanks @Watermom! I was going to add that into my statement but did not want to get into the weeds about it. I think the CYA-Ammonia conversion only happens in pools that are "closed" over winter. In those pools, the low-level algae that forms (after all the chlorine and polyquat is gone) then converts the CYA into ammonia. I have not heard of that happening in a pool that is run all year round like we do here in the Southwest because, presumably, we hope to have no algae in our pools to do the conversion but I would be interested in hearing about cases where CYA was consumed by some other chemical mechanism. I guess if a pool was allowed to turn into a green swamp, then the algae would consume all the CYA and produce ammonia, but that would be the extreme case of someone just neglecting their pool.....Hey! Maybe that's the solution to excessive CYA!?!?! Let your pool turn into a swamp for a while until your CYA levels go to normal :p

joking!!

[Wilco]

Guy quoted me $300 to do the salt blasting. He's coming Saturday, will let you know how it goes.

[SunnyOptimism]

Guy quoted me $300 to do the salt blasting. He's coming Saturday, will let you know how it goes.

AWESOME!! :):)

So $375 with the travel fee. Not bad. I priced out a 100lb sand blasting tank and 130psi/6gal air compressor at a little over $400. Add in 100 lbs of the kieserite material they use (basically hydrated magnesium sulfate salt) and you easily go over $500 for a DIY setup. Not to mention you need a modified shopvac or pressure-side cleaner with a fine mesh bag to vacuum up all the calcium scale and spent salt at the bottom of your pool...you'd have to do two or three DIY jobs before the equipment starting paying for itself.

If you can, please post before and after photos (especially of the worst areas) so we can all see the results. Ca scaling is a huge problem out here in the Southwest with our plaster pools and hard water, so I'm pretty sure others will be interested. Probably a good idea to start a new post so others will see it.

In case you're interested in reading about the soda blasting process, this site has good technical info -- http://www.universalminerals.com/maxxclean.shtml

[Wilco]

Definitely will post pics. Maybe the guy will cut me a deal for the advertising!

[Wilco]

Guy is here now, guess he is coming to you next?

[SunnyOptimism]

Yeah. I'll post the story later. I just drained my pool down so I've got some good "before" pictures.

[Wilco]

Also, I have no idea how to post pics here, and I don't have a photobucket type acct anywhere

[CarlD]

If you have a gmail account you can use picasaweb.google.com to upload pictures without having to download the Picasa tool to your PC. (don't know why Google wants Picasa downloaded)
Then when you click the insert image button (light green square) you can copy the image location from Picasa into the box, and move your pictures.

[SunnyOptimism]

Yeah, I use Photobucket. You can get an account with them an upload photos using your PC. I do it all from my iPhone using their app. Do you have an iPhone or some type of smartphone?

Once you upload a picture, you can just copy & paste the IMG link associated with the photo into any PF post and the forum software will retrieve and display the image. Pretty easy once you have all your devices setup.

Long story short - I had emailed Mark from ABB to ask if they still serviced Tucson just as I posted my response to you about them because their website changed and they no longer listed Tucson. Then you must of called him right away and the guy was totally wondering why he was all of a sudden getting all these inquiries from Tucson. After you booked him, he called me and said he was coming down for a job in Tucson and that he'd be happy to service my pool as well. I totally laughed out loud at the "chaos" my one forum post caused (my wife looked at me like I was nuts). Anyway, looks like we'll both have something to post about now.

:)

[Wilco]

Ok, not sure I can spend the time figuring all that out this am, but will try later. He just finished and it looks awesome.

[SunnyOptimism]

I'll post pics in a new thread and put a link to them in this thread. I'm still waiting for them to show up here.

[Wilco]

He split the driving fee between us, thanks for that

[SunnyOptimism]

No problem. He's here now. Yeah, he's a really nice guy and when I explained to him how this all came about he wanted to split the difference in the travel fee. I felt that was the totally fair thing to do. It's great when you find reputable conteactors willing to do the right thing and not try to shaft anyone.

So far the process looks great. I'm exited to see the end result.