Test results on new pool in Tucson

[FormerBromineUser]

Okay, good. Get FC up to >=10 by sundown. (Btw, wait at least one hour after adding bleach and then retest FC to confirm exact results during overnight testing. You won't have to do this once your water becomes stable). Then run overnight test. Would you like me to detail those steps for you?

Also, very jealous of your temp! We hit a high of 60 today!

[CarlD]

Hah! Can't make up it's mind if it's fall or still summer here in North-central NJ! Was cool all day, then I was out working on the pool rebuild. Went out a little later, just as evening was coming on, expecting it to cool down and it was hot and muggy! Tomorrow it could be 60 or 85 and the opposite on Saturday. Weather/Temp wise, September is generally a pain in the neck here in NJ.

[FormerBromineUser]

Getting late here. Just in case you need instructions for the overnight test:
An hour after your last additions, test FC and CC final readings and write them down. At sunrise, or no more than 1/2 hour after sunrise, test FC and CC again. Report both your evening and morning results.

[Wilco]

I had to go out last night, but my last test showed 4ppm, added a gallon of bleach. Tested this am,still 4ppm at ph of 7.6

[Watermom]

At sunrise, or no more than 1/2 hour after sunrise, test FC and CC.
Actually, as long as you test within an hour of sunrise, you are ok.

[Wilco]

So at this rate I'm doing about a gallon of bleach a day. That seems unsustainable.

[FormerBromineUser]

I am in meetings all day with only short breaks so hopefully someone will jump in here. Since you lost about 6ppm FC overnight, you have a chlorine demand that will take time, energy, and faith to get rid of.

But, if you commit to the process, eventually you will get to the point where you only have to use about 2 jugs a week, not a jug/day.

For now, keep putting in bleach and raise that FC. I will check in later.

[Watermom]

Keep your chlorine at shock level (which is based on your CYA level) until you meet three criteria:

1) You can go from sundown one evening to within an hour of sunrise the next morning without losing more than 1ppm of FC
2) You have no greater than 0.5ppm of CC
3) Your pool shows no signs of algae

At that point, let the chlorine drift down but keep it in the range between minimum and maximum ALL the time.

This process may take a few days but you have to be diligent about it. Eventually, your chlorine demand will decrease.

This chart shows the relationship between CYA and chlorine:> http://pool9.net/cl-cya/

[PoolDoc]

Maybe I've missed it, but I haven't seen a chlorine level reading in the late PM, followed by another reading the next early AM.

Those two readings TOGETHER are what gives indication of what's happening. A chlorine reading -- with no time stamp -- followed by a chlorine dose -- with no time stamp -- followed by another reading the next day -- still with no time stamp -- is not particularly informative.

Also, you write that a gallon per day is not sustainable. At Walmart, fresh bleach is under $3/gallon in most locations. For a 120 day season, that's $360, which is much LESS than most pool owners spend on their pools during a 120 day season, when following pool store recommendations. So while I'm not advocating a gallon per day as normal, a whole lot of pool owners sustain even higher expenses.

Let me be more specific.

1. Raise your chlorine level to a tested 15 ppm or higher at 7 pm.
2. Add nothing else. Make sure your pump is on all night.
3. Test again after sunrise, but before 8 am.
4. Report BOTH results.

[Wilco]

This is the first time I have seen the timing of the pump come into play. Is it better to run it at night? - from a cl standpoint? Sorry about not time stamping posts, I thought the server was doing that. So in general, try to do the chlorine adding at dusk, retest an hour later, and then first thing in am as the routine? Going to need more of that powder soon.

[FormerBromineUser]

Wow. Lots of responses here. Told you that you would get support!

Run pump 24/7 during shock process. Before you order more powder, check other supplies, especially 0871. Amato Industries (usePoolDoc/WaterMom's amazon link in their signatures) will discount shipping the more you buy. It won't look like it as you add to cart, but will be reflected at check-out.

[Watermom]

Sorry about not time stamping posts, I thought the server was doing that.
It's not the time stamping on the posts that is important but the time you tested along with the results that we need to see. Being able to see the change from sundown to sunup is particularly telling when trying to diagnose what is going on in a pool with chlorine demand. As Ben noted in an earlier post, losing chlorine during the day could mean that your CYA is low. But, losing chlorine overnight when you take sunlight out of the equation, tells us that something is going on in your water.

Once you get past this chlorine demand issue, it is not necessary to test in the evening AND in the morning. At that point, testing just in the evening is enough. In fact, once everything gets stable and you better learn your pool's behavior, you may even be able to go to testing every other day. But, not just yet.

You do need to run the pump 24/7 right now. When you aren't fighting something in the water, the time of day that you have the pump on is not as critical. But, it is always best to test and add chemicals (especially chlorine) in the evening. The only exception to this is if your chlorine is too low during the day. In that case, you wouldn't want to wait until evening to bring it up.

[Wilco]

Ok, I have been running pump 8 am to 4 pm each day. Try to run it for an hour if I add something before retesting. I know my cya is high, but the heat and high amt of sunlight seem to take their toll on the cl levels. I was hoping the overnight loss would be minimal, but will follow your instructions for consistency and hopefully diagnose the pattern soon. Thanks again.

[FormerBromineUser]

Since you lost about 6ppm FC overnight, you have a chlorine demand that will take time, energy, and faith to get rid of.
I actually did calculate based on your post-times but that WAS a hassle and I might very well have been making incorrect assumptions. Lesson learned. However, if my assumptions were correct that you lost 6ppm from sundown to sunrise, we know that something is going on with your pool. Follow PoolDoc's recipe tonight and tomorrow morning and we will know for sure:



1. Raise your chlorine level to a tested 15 ppm or higher at 7 pm.
2. Add nothing else. Make sure your pump is on all night.
3. Test again after sunrise, but before 8 am.
4. Report BOTH results.
I would clarify that a "TESTED 15ppm..." means that you wait one hour after raising CL level in #1 above, and then perform FC and CC tests again. This is just to make sure of the exact effects of any additions. These would be the numbers we need for your morning post.

Remember to record your TIME ;)

[Wilco]

Ok , here's the last 24 hrs. Not encouraging. Yesterday 7 am, cl at 4, I added a gallon of bleach. Retested at 4 pm, it's at 5 ppm, with 1ppm cc, added a gallon retested at 5 pm it's at 10 ppm, added another gallon, an hr later at 7 pm it's at 16 ppm. Ran pump all night. Test this am showed 6 ppm, zero cc.

[Watermom]

With a CYA of 100, your shock level would be about 25ppm. Let's see if going up to shock level will get you past this chlorine demand faster. Instead of adding bleach multiple times per day, add enough this evening to get back up to shock level. An hour later, test and record FC and CC and then within an hour of sunrise in the morning, test both again. In the morning, take it back up to shock. Just try and add enough bleach morning and evening to take it back up to 25ppm instead of trying to add bleach so many times per day.

I know this is frustrating. We see this on some pools every year. High chlorine demand that seems relentless and seems as if it will go on forever. It is usually the result of CYA biodegrading causing byproducts such as ammonia that you have to get rid of. I know it feels that you'll never get past it, but you will. Hang in there.

[Wilco]

Ok. I suppose kids need to stay out of pool if I am shocking that high? Also, I am going to start spreading my bleach purchases around. I already had comment from checker about how many bodies I was trying to get rid of. ( I know that's lime, but we are talking walmart here)

[Wilco]

Also, this is a dumb question, but when doing the cl testing(10cc) do the 2 scoops of powder need to be close to exact? Going over or under affect the testing? It seems not, but assumptions .."...

[FormerBromineUser]

Let them swim, especially as your CC is low. Just don't wear expensive swimwear. And don't worry about green hair!

[FormerBromineUser]

Personally I would recommend only using 1/2 scoop of powder. Whatever you do, just be consistent.

[Watermom]

No, the scoops of powder do not have to be exact at all. In fact, if one scoop turns the sample pink, you don't need to put the second scoop in.

[Wilco]

Allright, will repost results tomorrow am, ty

[FormerBromineUser]

Wilco, when you have time (hahaha) think about making a signature and also becoming a subscriber! Both can be done through the settings link at the top of the page.

[FormerBromineUser]

This is a perfect time to scrub out and around the edges of your skimmers, jets, stairs (especially if removable), maybe even behind your lights. I just came back from helping someone who just moved into a house with a cloudy pool. Every single crevice and hide-y place was LOADED with green algae. Yuck. Also, run water through any lines you may not be using: stair jets, fountains, slides, etc.

[Wilco]

ok, so after having a starting cl of 6ppm yesterday am, i waited and retested at 5pm, 2ppm. added 2 gallons of bleach, up to 13. first thing at 7 am it is 6 ppm. with ph 7.6, ta 100, cc 0.5, snf cya 100-110 of course. i know you suggested shocking to 25,but seriously, my recycle bin is already full of bleach bottles, haha.

[Watermom]

I know 25ppm seems high, but unless you take it to shock level, I think you are most likely just prolonging this process.

[FormerBromineUser]

Besides recycling issues, what is your reluctance to go to 25 and keep it there until your problem is solved?

[FormerBromineUser]

Please don't give up on BBB. My friend's pool (which I mentioned earlier) went from 0 FC to 12 FC and <0.5 CC with a little patience and lots of persistence. We were on it, and luckily we got there in two days of diligence. We're not done, but over the hump.

It can sometimes take longer unfortunately, but if you follow WaterMom's advice, you too will get there! Better to hit it as hard as you can from the get-go, rather than diddling around. It's a waste of time and money to go slow. Again, let us know your reservations. Otherwise, it's hard to help.

[CarlD]

FBU is right. BBB has been demonstrated to work effectively thousands of times, just by our own members. Other sites have adopted the term and the method and their members, too, have found it effective.

But ultimately, the responsibility for YOUR pool rests with you. We can't fix it. We can only offer advice based on our experience and the information you provide. You have to do the "heavy lifting", test your water, add the chemicals, vacuum and brush. You can choose to take our advice, or not take our advice.

You have a very high CYA level. If you have algae, the chemistry of pool water with a CYA of 100 or more requires shocking to 25ppm to kill algae. Once your water is clean you STILL must keep it between 8 and 15. You are at 6.

Rather than always buying bleach, several pool stores in my area sell carboys of 12.5% liquid chlorine. One dealer (one BigDave knows) has such a big turnover that his stuff, when I test it, always tests at 14%. The carboys are deposit bottles. When I buy a new one, I give him my old one and the new one, 5 gallons (equivalent of 10 gallons of 7%) is $19. I paid the deposit on 3 carboys years ago, and also bought a carboy spigot $4 years ago that I reuse. All you need is two or three bleach bottles to fill from the carboy and no recycling!

[Wilco]

well its the recycling but also the trips to the store. i did find 3 gallon packs of clorox at costco for $8.07, which is a little cheaper than the generic walmart stuff. you guys first said to shock to 15, and then 25. guess i was trying to split the difference and not use 8 gallons of bleach a day. my wife thinks im crazy. but i see that you feel that going higher will unlock this problem. i just dont understand what we are unlocking. there is no algae, the water is crystal clear, and isnt cya a stabilizer of cl? i know ots too high, but shouldnt it theoretically keep the cl up there?
anyway, last night i was at 3ppm, added 3 gallons, up to 17ppm. had to go out for the evening. rechecked this am, 8ppm. should i be adding bleach in ams as well?

[CarlD]

OK: If you don't have algae and your CC level is .5 or less, then you need to keep your FC (free Chlorine) level in maintenance mode, not shock mode. With a CYA of 100 or more, Maintenance Mode means an FC of 8-15ppm. Shock mode means an FC of 25. So if your are between 8 and 15 and your level pretty much holds overnight, with only a small loss, you're golden.

I hope that helps.

[FormerBromineUser]

Ok , here's the last 24 hrs. Not encouraging. Yesterday 7 am, cl at 4, I added a gallon of bleach. Retested at 4 pm, it's at 5 ppm, with 1ppm cc, added a gallon retested at 5 pm it's at 10 ppm, added another gallon, an hr later at 7 pm it's at 16 ppm. Ran pump all night. Test this am showed 6 ppm, zero cc.

Carl, in Wilco's overnight test he lost 10ppm FC. That's why WaterMom took him to shock level.

Wilco, we originally said 15 because with your CYA level, 8-15 is your maintenance range. Now that you have determined that you are losing FC overnight, we know you are fighting something unusual in your pool and need to shock it at 25.

Yes, you need to add bleach in the morning too. Your goal is to get it to 25 and keep it there as much as possible. If you can, make additions mid-day too.

[Watermom]

Carl may have not read the entire thread. Shock level is what you want. Even though there is no algae, you have huge chlorine demand. So, you do want to shock the pool and keep it at shock level until you get past it. Sorry for the seemingly conflicting advice.

[Wilco]

ok. guess ill be making triweekly costco runs. also, you all mentioned running the pump 24/7. what is the reasoning there?

[Watermom]

Actually, without algae, probably not as critical. Usually when shocking a pool, it is to clear up an algae bloom and thus we say filter 24/7. In your case, probably not as necessary.

[Wilco]

better to run at night or day? would it have any potential to prevent nighttime drifting of cl?

[Watermom]

Doesn't really matter and it shouldn't have anything to do with the night-time chlorine loss.

[Wilco]

Ok. Just hit 3gallons, should be at shock level---8+6+6+6 (will test)
Thank you all

[CarlD]

Carl may have not read the entire thread. Shock level is what you want. Even though there is no algae, you have huge chlorine demand. So, you do want to shock the pool and keep it at shock level until you get past it. Sorry for the seemingly conflicting advice.

That would be true....oops. But if you're losing 10ppm overnight, it may well be some other contamination you have to metabolize. Algae is, in an of itself, harmless. But it "bleeds" the chlorine out of your water so it can't metabolize the really bad stuff, like animal, avian and human fecal matter, and other bacterial contamination. Algae's just the most obvious and visible.

[Wilco]

I know, I don't get why the drop overnight. No visible issues with contaminants. Bather load is light. Pump is running relatively low pressure, but I guess I can do aa backwash. I still think it's somehow related to the extreme hardness of the water here. I have scaling all around the pool. Takes a toll on dishwashers, water heaters, shower doors in a major way here.

[Watermom]

It may be that some of your CYA biodegraded. That is pretty common and we see it a lot of times in the spring when people open their pools. If it biodegrades, it can leave ammonia as a byproduct which causes a huge chlorine demand to get rid of it. I have a feeling that is what is going on in your pool. Or, you may have some other type of organic in the water that you cannot see that is causing the demand. Sometimes a pool can be on the verge of an algae bloom without having any visible signs and you go through a lot of chlorine. I highly doubt that having hard water would have any effect on chlorine use.

[CarlD]

I don't know of anyone here who has heard of a connection between hard water and chlorine neutralization.
Other than organic matter that the chlorine metabolizes, the only chlorine neutralizers I know of are solar UV rays and Sodium Thiosulfate (R-0007 in the Taylor reagent chemicals).

[Wilco]

Last night, tested at 6 pm, got 13 ppm, added 2 gallons. Got a little rain last night, retest at 7 am, 12 ppm. Added my last gallon. Back to store for more. That's 11 gallons in 3 days.

[Wilco]

Ok, new twist. Given your thoughts that there is still something organic going on. I reconsidered something. At different degrees, there has rather consistently been a loose, brown, fine debris that accumulates on the step down shallow area surrounding the pool, and somewhat in the corners.i thought this was dirt, as we have planters, etc around the pool that may leak into the pool during storms I suppose. I had been brushing daily last month, but had gotten away from that as the chlorine upkeep became paramount. Is this algae/dead algae?

[CarlD]

If you were here in the NE we'd be saying pollen--it's allergy season here.

[Wilco]

Ok, so I just had a revelation, I think. I believe I mentioned that I had a 500 gallon spa attached to the pool? Well, it's attached but only with overflow into the pool. I never actually tested the spa water, thinking it was all the same, and it would splash it with bleach or shock, but not test it. We'll I tested it. Ph unmeasurable high, like probably 9, and no detectable FCC even after a gallon of Clorox. I think it has been bleeding into the pool and acting as a feeder of algae, and I was just band aiding it instead of treating the source. So I hit it with acid and more bleach and will retest often. Jeez.

[FormerBromineUser]

Regardless, it's not the pollen that is causing your chlorine demand. Get FC to 25 and try your very best to keep it there without too much of a drop. 11 jugs doesn't seem like that much to tell you the truth. Keep the faith!

[FormerBromineUser]

Okay, cross-post. Let us know results of spa testing. Spas can be nasty creatures. My apologies for not remembering the spa over-flow. Why do installers do that? Yuck.

[Wilco]

Got the cl up to 25 in the spa, but ph still high, added 2 more cups of acid. Plus we are supposed to get major monsoon rains next few days. I am going to need more testing supplies, that's for sure. Got the too kit, but not ready for it at all yet.

[Wilco]

*OTO kit