Very Cloudy/Foaming issues

[Apatton]

Arizona in ground pool, sand filter, push pull backwash vale. 25,000 gallon + attached in ground spa.

Summary: Pool became a green monster after my palm trees were trimmed. Tons of shock and green algecide later (Swimtrine Plus - full container) pool turned a beautiful blue with all the dead algae on the bottom...sort of a cream color. I've been running the pool 24/7 every weekend in addition to my 8 hours at night, lots of back washing, vacuuming, and trying to keep my chemicals up (chlorine is good, pH is a bit low, just under 7.2). No matter what I do I cannot get rid of the following:

- Pool is insanely cloudy, cannot see bottom. I have put in tons of clarifier, including BioDex - Clearex 500, no beneficial results.
- When pool is circulating there is a TON of foam buildup on the surface. I thought it would pass after weeks of cleaning/back washing/maintenance, but so far it hasn't seemed to dissipate.

I have been checking the pool for sand to see if I may have a broken lateral, but have not come across any as of yet. Pool sand was changed out a year and a half ago, so I don't think I have something wrong with my filter, but I do notice when the pool first kicks on, the return jets blowing water from the system back into the pool are pushing in very cloudy water. It's almost as if the filter is not catching it. It seems like no matter what I do, I cannot fix these issues!

[Apatton]

I backwash into a gravel section in my yard. I'll check when I get home shortly.I assume i'm checking for a broken lateral?

======================

Later:

No sand in backwash. Just redid testing with my neighbor (pool guy)...High alkalinity. Put in acid to hopefully fix. Popped top to filter, everything looks good. Will report back tomorrow....hate this pool.

[Watermom]

@the pool store ----- welcome to the Pool Forum. But, we typically don't advise adding Foam Down and floc is only as a last resort. Since you are 'in the biz,' you may find that our methods are not what you may consider the norm for maintaining a pool. We would respectfully ask that you read and enjoy getting familiar with the forum but for now, please refrain from giving chemistry advice. We usually find it best if our 'pool guys' initially take the time to just get to know what we are all about instead of answering posts as soon as they join. We hope you understand.

@Apatton --- I want you to test your sand filter to see if it is working properly by adding a handful of DE to the skimmer while the pump is running and watch the returns to see if white powder is blowing back into the pool. More about this can be found here:> http://pool9.net/de-test/

Report back the results of this test. Also, tell us what kind of test kit you are using to test with and exactly what all you have added to the pool -- meaning ingredients, please. Your foaming is definitely from the algaecide. This is one of the main reasons why the only algaecide we recommend is 60% polyquat. Most others do little to help and cause lots of issues that are difficult to clean up.

Welcome to the Pool Forum, by the way!

(Until your registration is completed, you won't be able to follow links nor see the rest of the forum while you are logged in. So, copy the link and paste it into a browser window after you first log out.)

[Apatton]

Items used to clean up very green pool: Fresh n clear oxidizing shock (non chlorine shock), Hydro clear shock, and a gallon of Swimtrine Algecide (63% copper ethanolamine). I understand that I probably used too much, but having battled this pool for weeks with zero improvement (in fact it was getting worse) I was getting fed up.

- I did the DE test, but with my pool water already a bit cloudy it was a bit difficult to see, but not impossible. From my vantage point there was not any amount of white-ish water shooting out of my return that was any worse then the cloudy water already being put back in rotation. After adding the DE, i did notice my pressure go up by 2 lbs. Based on the other post you had me reference, this is 1 lb more then i would have wanted, but still within acceptable range to continue without backwashing. I'll let it go tonight and backwash tomorrow morning.

- My pool test kit is a pretty basic one, got it at the pool store. 5 different droppers, two tubes. One for chlorine, the other for Ph and alkalinity. I updated it in my profile, but I do not appear to have sufficient access to view my own profile or else I would post it here.

I have also added a ton of pool clarifier to try and clear up my cloudy pool, everything from your basic buy one get one free stuff at shady back alley pool stores, to Clearex 500 that I get at the larger retail pool stores. Once I determined the Clearex did nothing to dissipate the cloudiness, I knew i had a problem.

[Apatton]

**Follow up from my post last night** After the pool ran 8 hours, i noticed no difference in cloudiness. I decided since my water was mostly settled, i'd give the DE test another shot since it would be easier to notice. I first backwashed to get any junk from last night out, then added DE to my skimmer. A few minutes later there was a noticeable white cloud shooting out of my return back to my pool.

[BigDave]

That sounds to me like you'll need to open the filter and inspect. A proper sand bed should be able to hold DE. Did/does alot of sand come out in backwash?

[BigDave]

Maybe insufficient sand, some other broken or misplaced parts. Anything that would let the water go around or straight through the sand bed.

[CarlD]

By "High alkalinity" do you mean high Total Alkalinity or an elevated pH lever? "High alkalinity" shouldn't be the source of your problems in either case. And, if it's Total Alkalinity, just adding Muriatic Acid isn't going to fix it.

I'm thinking there's nothing wrong with your filter, but that you've been advised (and sold) to throw in so much junk that clearing it all out is going to take some time.

BD, WM: what do you think of this recommendation?

1) Give us a full set of test numbers: FC, CC or TC, pH, CH, T/A and CYA.
2) Backwash. Then add just enough DE (about 1/4 to 1/3) cup through your skimmer to raise your PSI 1lb.
3) adjust pH and FC levels to recommended shock level for your CYA level (http://pool9.net/cl-cya/)
4 Buy a package of "Skimmer Socks" (or similar skimmer liners under another brand name). They are cheap. Put one in your skimmer.
5) Run your pump 24/7. If it's a two speed, run it on High. Let this run for a day or two.
6) See if the pressure on the pump went up, and if the skimmer sock is full. If so, backwash and add more DE and wash out the skimmer sock and replace.
7) Keep pH between 7.2 and 7.8, and keep FC at shock level.
8) Let us know what happens and we can recommend the next step/steps.

[BigDave]

@CarlD: The filter has failed DE test. It needs to be addressed to clear pool.
@Apatton: It's probably a bad idea to mix and match our advice and your neighbor's.

[CarlD]

- I did the DE test, but with my pool water already a bit cloudy it was a bit difficult to see, but not impossible. From my vantage point there was not any amount of white-ish water shooting out of my return that was any worse then the cloudy water already being put back in rotation. After adding the DE, i did notice my pressure go up by 2 lbs. Based on the other post you had me reference, this is 1 lb more then i would have wanted, but still within acceptable range to continue without backwashing. I'll let it go tonight and backwash tomorrow morning.

BigDave: From this above ^^^ it sounds like his filter PASSED the DE test, rather than failed it.

[Apatton]

It's tough to say since it is kicking out white debris as is. You're right, acid made no difference. I'll work to get you the figures from your previous response. I'd like to thank everyone for their help, it is immensely appreciated!

[Watermom]

**Follow up from my post last night** After the pool ran 8 hours, i noticed no difference in cloudiness. I decided since my water was mostly settled, i'd give the DE test another shot since it would be easier to notice. I first backwashed to get any junk from last night out, then added DE to my skimmer. A few minutes later there was a noticeable white cloud shooting out of my return back to my pool.

But...... from his later post, it does sound like he failed the DE test.

[CarlD]

Yeah, now it does. I don't get it..... (shrugs)

[Apatton]

I'm sorry for any confusion, I'd like to take the chance to clear it up. Ever since dumping copious amounts of chemicals into my pool, previous to any DE addition, my jets have been returning very white-ish water...it is most noticeable when the pool is first turned on after sitting. So, while I have done the DE test twice, the only time I truly felt my pool may have been returning DE through the jets was after the pool had been sitting and not on for several hours. It was about 5:30am before i head in to work, and it may have simply been the nasty white-ish water that has been keeping my pool cloudy for the past 3 1/2 - 4 weeks. I felt it was whiter then usual, but in hindsight I had only gotten about 5 hours the night before thanks to the newborn, and had not yet had my morning coffee.

Still working to provide you the following information, waiting on delivery of my Taylor pool testing kit. Here's what i'll be providing when i post next, hopefully I can do it during the week: 1) Give us a full set of test numbers: FC, CC or TC, pH, CH, T/A and CYA. Speaking of this, can someone break down what these are? I recognize pH and Total Alkalinity, but i'm not certain what the other items are...Free chlorine and something else? No clue what CYA is.

[Watermom]

FC - free chlorine --- the chlorine that is available to still do the work. (Needed FC is based on your CYA level.)
CC - combined chlorine --- very simply put -- it is the chlorine that has already been used up oxidizing stuff in the water. Ideally, want 0 CC.
TC -- total chlorine. FC + CC = TC
CH -- calcium hardness. Unless it is really high, CH is not a concern in a vinyl pool. In a hard-sided pool, you want 200-400.
CYA -- cyanuric acid, also called stabilizer or conditioner. It is basically like sunscreen for your pool. Without an adequate amount, an outdoor pool will lose the chlorine to the sun really fast. For most pools, CYA of around 50ppm works well.

Hope this helps a little.

[Apatton]

Alright, kit came in today, here are my findings:

FC - .4ppm
CC - 1.2 ppm
TA - 900 ppm
CH - 0
CYA - 75 PPM

Forgot pH, 7.0

It has been raining here in PHX off and one the past two days, just an FYI.

[Watermom]

Watch these testing demo videos and then try your tests again and repost. (You don't need to redo the CYA test, however.)
Use a 10mL water sample instead of a 25mL one as this will make your testing reagents last longer. You will then multiply your drop count by 0.5 instead of 0.2.

http://pool9.net/K2006-vid/

(Remember, copy the link and then log out.)

[BigDave]

That's strange.
For the chlorine tests FC and CC if you use a 10ml sample and multiply the drop count by 0.5ppm you'll save on testing reagents. Also if one scoop of DPD powder turns the sample pink, you don't need another.
You need more chlorine - alot more.
TA and CH don't look right to me - check out the Taylor testing videos at http://pool9.net/K2006-vid/ (http://pool9.net/K2006-vid/). As a trial user, you'll need to copy the URL, log out of PoolForum, then paste the URL in your browser to see the page.

[Watermom]

Looks like Dave and I were posting at the same time without almost identical advice! ;)

[Apatton]

Watched the videos, doesn't seem to be any different that what I did, but I will retest when I get home. I'll let my pool run for a couple hours before I do my testing this time and hopefully get different results.

[CarlD]

A TA of 900 meant you had to put 90 drops of the R-0009 in to get the sample to go from green to red. Are you sure that's what you did?

Review of TA test
1) Fill tube to 25ml mark
2) Add 2 drops of R-0007 and swirl
3) Add 5 drops of R-0008 and swirl--sample should turn green.
4) Add 1 drop of R-0009 and swirl
5) Repeat #4, counting drops, until sample turns red and stays red.
6) Multiply # of drops added by 10--that is your TA number.

CH:
1) Fill tube to 25ml mark
2) Add 20 drops of R-0010, and swirl
3) Add 5 drops of R-0011, and swirl. Sample should turn red or pinkish red.
4) Add 1 drop of R-0012 and swirl
5) Repeat #4, counting drops, until sample turns blue.
6) Multiply # of drops added by 10--that is your CH number.

Hope this helps.

[Apatton]

I accidentally added a 0 to my TA figures yesterday. Haven't been getting much sleep due to the newborn, my bad...

FC - .4
CC - 1.2
TA - 100
CH - 500
pH - 7.0

Question about the Calcium Hardness...when I take the test, it indicates that my color will turn red after adding the R 0011. Mine keeps turning purple; like royal purple. I went ahead and continued adding drops until it turned blue and it took 25. That seemed excessive, especially considering I did the 10ml test.

I purchased an additional chlorine floater and some liquid chlorine to help boost my chlorine levels, will be adding that to the pool here in a moment.

[CarlD]

Um, you're still doing the CH test wrong.
1) You MUST use the 25 ml line. It's the FAS-DPD test that you do to the 10ml line
2) Not sure what purple means...you may have no CH, but I won't swear to it.
3) If you added 25 drops of R-0012, that means you have CH of 250, not 500. But if you did it with a 10ml sample of water, I don't know WHAT the heck it means!
4) On your FAS-DPD test (FC/CC) use the 10ml line and each drop counts for .5, not .2. It's good enough.

[Apatton]

It says that if high CH is anticipated, to use 10, and multiply drops by 25. I skipped it the first time since it was purple, but decided to do it this time...eventually turned blue with 25 drops which is actually 625 apologies

[BigDave]

@CarlD: The K-2006 has instructions for a 10ml CH test in the lid.
@Apatton: CH of 625 is quite high. Do you fill with very hard water or was it something else?

[Apatton]

I suppose my task today will be to test my hose water. Will report back with findings this evening.

[CarlD]

Thanks BD.

Yeah 625 is super-high. Ben has a way of reducing it...I think it involves (counter-intuitively) putting lots of Cal-Hypo in the skimmer.

[Apatton]

Just tested my tap water, it's at 300 ppm CH.

CarlD - I'm open for any and all suggestions on how to reduce my CH, hopefully this will resolve my cloudiness issues.

[Watermom]

I'm going to ask Ben to chime in on your thread.

[PoolDoc]

Ok -- let me start by quoting stuff from earlier posts:


Pool became a green monster . . . Tons of shock and green algecide later (Swimtrine Plus - full container) pool turned a beautiful blue with all the dead algae on the bottom...sort of a cream color. I've been running the pool 24/7 every weekend in addition to my 8 hours at night, lots of back washing, vacuuming, and trying to keep my chemicals up No matter what I do I cannot get rid of the following:

- Pool is insanely cloudy, cannot see bottom. I have put in tons of clarifier, including BioDex - Clearex 500, no beneficial results.
- When pool is circulating there is a TON of foam buildup on the surface. I thought it would pass after weeks of cleaning/back washing/maintenance, but so far it hasn't seemed to dissipate.


Items used to clean up very green pool: Fresh n clear oxidizing shock (non chlorine shock), Hydro clear shock, and a gallon of Swimtrine Algecide (63% copper ethanolamine). I understand that I probably used too much, but having battled this pool for weeks with zero improvement (in fact it was getting worse) I was getting fed up.

I have also added a ton of pool clarifier to try and clear up my cloudy pool, everything from your basic buy one get one free stuff at shady back alley pool stores, to Clearex 500 that I get at the larger retail pool stores. Once I determined the Clearex did nothing to dissipate the cloudiness, I knew i had a problem.


FC - .4
CC - 1.2
pH - 7.0
TA - 100
CH - 625
CYA - 75

I should also note that your filter performance seems doubtful -- I don't know whether it's working properly or not . . .

SO . . .

First, you've got pool chemical voodoo soup. That means, we can't be sure how anything we suggest will work out. There are many reasons we tell people to avoid useless chemicals in their pools, but one important reason is to keep things simple enough so that we can offer advice that will work. Unfortunately, in your case we can only offer suggestions that we HOPE will eventually work.

Second, it's not likely that calcium is part of your current problem . . . UNLESS you've done something that you forgot to mention. With a pH of 7.0 and a TA of 100, a CH of 600 is actually on the LOW side!

Third, given your high doses of foamy algaecide, and your low levels of chlorine, foaming and cloudiness were INEVITABLE!. Unfortunately, your situation is complicated by having added copper algaecides that will tend to stain your pool once you begin raising chlorine levels.

Your chlorine level SHOULD be 10% of your CYA level -- 7.5 ppm. You have a level of about 1%, far, far too low.

Do this:

1. Turn your pump on 24 hours per day, 7 days per week till this is resolved.

2. Cautiously, gradually, raise your chlorine level to 5% of your CYA (~3 ppm) over a 48 - 72 hour period. This page, http://pool9.net/cl-cya/, partially explains the chlorine-cya relationship.

3. Meanwhile, use borax (http://pool9.net/borax/), 1/2 box at a time, to raise your pH to at least 7.2.

4. AND, order these cal hypo tablets: CCH Calcium Hypochlorite 2 5/8" Tablets 50 lb bucket (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00H81OM08/scouscho-20/). If you can get equivalent tablets locally, that's fine. BUT, make SURE that you are buying UNDILUTED, UNMIXED calcium hypochlorite in tablet form.

The reason is that, used in a skimmer in conjunction with a sand filter, the chlorine + calcium carbonate mixture will help strip the goo -- INCLUDING COPPER -- from your pool and put it on your filter where you can remove it.

However, while you use these you will need to (a) turn off any heater, (b) empty any feeder [cal hypo MUST NOT come into direct contract with any other form of chlorine], (c) make SURE that you don't add chemicals on top of, or next to, the cal hypo tabs.

When you receive these, I'd recommend splitting them into 3 heavy duty garbage bags. Seal 2 as best you can, and return them to the bucket. Be SURE to open the OUTSIDE when you're ready to use them; the bags will accumulate fumes, though the dryer they are, the less they will fume. Use the tabs in the 3rd bag, for now.

Once are ready to begin suing these tabs, retest pH, TA, CH and post results. You may need to raise the pH a bit first. (There's some complicated stuff going on here, and I doubt you want to read all the details. I KNOW I don't want to type all of them ;) )

[Apatton]

Great info, thank you PoolDoc. I will get the materials, but before I do, I wanted to update where my pool is at as of today. Due to the weather systems rolling through AZ, it has been unusually cool for this time of year, so I jumped at the opportunity to partially drain my pool last night and refill. I also began to work at increasing my chlorine content since I was told it was quite low. With the partial drain (3 feet) and refilll, my applicable levels as of this morning:

FC - 8ppm
CC - 2ppm
CH - 400ppm
pH - 7.0

Am I still ok to proceed with the process mentioned above? Also, I've attached a photo of my soupy pool. Water doesn't look bad, but once I kick that system on you can just see the nastiness being placed back in. This is what made the DE test very hard. Really wish I had the VAC 2 WASTE ability.

http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/ag220/Apatton/20140823_101435_resized_zps0a3383e3.jpg (http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/Apatton/media/20140823_101435_resized_zps0a3383e3.jpg.html)

[PoolDoc]

1. Check the sand, as above, if possible.

2. Do NOT cycle your pump on and off -- disable your timer for now.

Instead, run it continuously till EITHER the water is clear OR the pressure has risen at least 6 pounds over the clean pressure. At that point, BACKWASH, then RINSE, before returning the multiport valve to FILTER.

[PoolDoc]

My bad. I was confusing this thread with another one.

If possible, you should check your sand filter for LEVEL and for QUALITY. Get a bag of LABELED filter sand from a pool store (NOT: Lowes or Home Depot). Open the filter and check the sand LEVEL and quality (gummy, lumped, etc.) If there's sufficient sand, and it's OK, remove a handful and dry it on a pan in the over. Place some sand from the new bag side by side on a smooth white cloth (old pillow case) with the dried sand. See if they are the sand.

Also if possible, replace the push-pull valve with a multiport valve. It will make managing your filter much easier.