Test Results are in :(((

[MattinAZ]

Hi

I have a 10,000 gal inground fresh water pool. Purex Clean and Clear 320 Cartridge type filter. 1 hp pump, also a connected (discharges to the pool) 1000 gal spa. Pump runs 8 hours a day , since I am in Southern Arizona, it is hot and sometimes afternoon rains, I feel may be I should run it for longer periods

The pool has been resurfaced Pebble tec about 2 years ago and restarted by the resurfacing company. Initially a pool guy was taking care of it. However since his service has deteriorated day to day we started to taking care by ourselves. I bought a bucket of tablets from Sam's club and kept the pool in good order for another year or so. However recently I have realized that it started to take more tablets just to keep the pool clean.

I have a 3 way HTH test kit from walmart and used it to test the Ph, Chlorine and one more thing i guess.

Anyway long story shot, this summer went for a vacation and when we return we have a green pool. Actually before we left it was greenish and cloudy (we were already giving up on it) and after finding this forum I started dumping Walmart Chlorox into the pool about the rate of 5 gallons a week or every ten days or so.

When I returned from vacation I added Chlorine tablets (3 inch) it started clearing a little bit but (we started to see the bottom of the pool at the shallow sections) still very green and I can see insects all over.

Yesterday I took a sample of the water and took it to Walmart as they now have an HTH machine which tests the strip that you dip in your sample. And my test results are ;


Free Chlorine 0 ppm
Alkalinity 80 ppm
pH 7.8
Hardness 800 ppm
CYA 200 ppm


So not looking good I guess.

As far as I understood from this forum for excessive CYA levels we need to discharge and refill the pool and I am OK with that. I am on a budget ( read I do not want to be robbed by the pool guy, they asked $ 300 just to discharge and refill the pool, using my own power and water, basically he is renting the submersible pump to me for that price, unbelievable !!!) so it will be a DIY job.

I want to buy new cartridges for the filet, on the net and at local branch of well known Pool Supply Chain they run about $ 69 each I need 4 of them.

Here are my questions, those probably have been asked before but please bear with me as I am trying to learn how to do this thing scientifically. and since this will be a start from scratch I want to do it right this time.


- I guess I need a better test kit, or is the HTH machine at local Walmart OK

- Is there a better place on the web to get the supplies at more reasonable prices, which stores other members are using to get supplies, chlorine tablets etc.

- Anything I need to do when the pool is empty ( I am planning to brush the walls with some mild detergent and clean the pop ups)

- After I discharge the pool what do I need to restart the pool. Walmart sells some HTH restart kit, but I want to do this the correct way by testing the water and adding chemicals as needed, however do not want to miss a step in the beginning. I think this is an important step to a happy and healthy pool.

Thanks very much

Matt

[Watermom]

You have to be careful completely draining a pool so it doesn't pop out of the ground like a big boat. I'm assuming in Arizona the water table is extremely low so this probably is not an issue for you but wanted to throw it out there just in case.

I wouldn't use any type of sudsing detergent to clean the walls with. Any leftover residue and you'll have a pool full of bubbles! You can scrub it with baking soda.

When you do refill it, you can use our Super Simple Start-up Recipe which is ideal for a freshly filled pools. You can read about it here:> http://pool9.net/ssr/

You also need a good test kit. Test strips are pretty worthless. The kit we like is the Taylor K2006 or 2006C (better buy) that you can get through this link as it is very doubtful that you'll find it anywhere locally:> http://pool9.net/tk/

By the way, the reason your CYA got so high was from the trichlor tabs. Using the dichlor in the start-up recipe will add the needed CYA as well as chlorine so don't use any more tabs. When your CYA gets to around 50 or so, discontinue the dichlor and then go with just bleach.

If you don't want to use the recipe, you can just use bleach from the get-go but you'll have to add some CYA separately. If this is the route you would rather take, let us know and we'll figure out how much CYA you need to add.

This link has a chart that explains the connection between CYA and chlorine:> http://pool9.net/cl-cya/

Hope this helps. Let us know if you have further questions and someone here will be glad to help.

[Pappy]

First thing is to get the test kit and verify your numbers. If your CYA is really 200 ppm, drain and refill might be the best way to go. There are some on this forum that run high CYA , but around 100 ppm is the highest I've heard.

Many Home depot locations have a tool rental department. If there is one close to you, they'll rent you a 2" submersible pump and hoses for WAY less than $300 (you might be able to BUY one of their used ones for less than $300).
http://www6.homedepot.com/tool-truck-rental/Pump_Submersible_2/0009112/

You might want to drain only 1/2 or 3/4 of the water instead of a complete drain. Then you'll have your CYA and can switch to bleach for your chlorine source.

Good luck!

Pappy

[dubbedout]

Everyone has already added all the important information as far as getting a good test kit. I had to drain my pool last season and also in AZ. I went to Home Depot and rented the submersible pump as recommended above, they'll give you as much hose as you need for no extra charge as well. I also picked up a cheap power washer from Harbor Freight and sprayed the sides down as the water went down. You can also notify your water company (Town of Gilbert here) and let them know when you refill and they'll cut you a break on water usage. I didn't even notice a difference on my bill when I refilled.

[PoolDoc]

Hi

I have a 10,000 gal inground fresh water pool. Purex Clean and Clear 320 Cartridge type filter. 1 hp pump, also a connected (discharges to the pool) 1000 gal spa. Pump runs 8 hours a day , since I am in Southern Arizona, it is hot and sometimes afternoon rains, I feel may be I should run it for longer periods

I want to buy new cartridges for the filter

Here's what you want
Unicel C-7470 Replacement Filter Cartridge Clean and Clear Plus (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0039QE35U/scouscho-20/)
Filbur FC-1976 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0045LRZ8K/scouscho-20/)
Pentair OEM R173573 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006JLUGS/scouscho-20/)

Get one of these three -- a GENUINE "Unicel", "Filbur" or Pentair OEM cartridge, and NOT anything else. Currently, my preference is for the Unicel, but the current (Aug 5, 2014) Filbur price on Amazon is a terrific deal. Watch out for the Pentair -- the Amazon description is all messed up, and they may not be shipping the correct item. By the way, either Unicel or Filbur MAKE most of the OEM cartridges for Hayward, Jandy, and Pentair.


Yesterday I took a sample of the water and took it to Walmart as they now have an HTH machine which tests the strip that you dip in your sample. And my test results are ;

Free Chlorine 0 ppm
Alkalinity 80 ppm
pH 7.8
Hardness 800 ppm
CYA 200 ppm

I'd love it if, once you have a K2006, you could compare the results from the K2006 with the Walmart strip reader.

[MattinAZ]

Thanks for all the replies.

Here is the preparations so far

- Ordered K-2006 from Amazon - Once I receive the kit ( hopefully this Friday) will retest to compare results with HTH-Walmart machine and put it on this thread.
- Ordered Filbur Cartridges from Amazon - thanks for heads up @PoolDoc
- Will rent submersible pump from Rent-All here in Tucson cost $ 27 per day but i'll pick it up on Saturday and return on Monday for the same price, so it is two days effectively. I may as well rent a pressure washer as suggested.

i'll buy the diChlor. Found it at Sams club (Pool Brand), they sell 24 packs (it says one pouch will treat 10,000 gallons ?) for 58.98. My questions are
- do I need 24 packs or shall I go for smaller ? if yes what are the commercial names for example does HTH have it ?
- do you place the contents in the strainer or just throw in the pool ?

Will get Borax from Local Walmart

Looks like thats all I need for the start up then if needed I may get the Muratic Acid from HD or Lowes

Anything else I may need to start up the pool ?


Here are some pictures

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3889/14845308755_63bb258e37_b.jpg

.

[Pappy]

If your CYA is really 200 ppm, you will need to dilute your pool water to get readable results. Carefully measure and mix 1 cup of pool water with 1 cup of tap (your drinking water will have no CYA in it) or distilled water. Double the reading you get. You may need to add 2 cups of tap/distilled water to 1 cup pool water to get a useful reading, if so, multiply the reading by 3. There are some videos on the test kit you should watch before you start testing. I don't have the links right now, but I'll find them.


Are you going to do a complete drain and refill? If you're doing a partial drain & refill, you don't need the dichlor. If your pool's pH tends to drift down, like mine, you may never need MA.

Pappy

[PoolDoc]

I'd hang on to the dichlor, unless you do a drain and refill. Dichlor adds 9 ppm of stabilizer for every 10 ppm of chlorine.

Instead dose with PLAIN bleach, at the rate of 2 gallons of PLAIN 8% household bleach for each 10k gallons of water in your pool. Even if you're going to drain, you don't want your pool to get totally swampy. Add 2 gallons EACH evening until you drain, or until the algae is all gone.

[Pappy]

Here's the thread with the test kit videos,

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php/17157-Taylor-K2006-Videos-on-YouTube

Good luck!

[MattinAZ]

If your CYA is really 200 ppm, you will need to dilute your pool water to get readable results. Carefully measure and mix 1 cup of pool water with 1 cup of tap (your drinking water will have no CYA in it) or distilled water. Double the reading you get. You may need to add 2 cups of tap/distilled water to 1 cup pool water to get a useful reading, if so, multiply the reading by 3. There are some videos on the test kit you should watch before you start testing. I don't have the links right now, but I'll find them.


Are you going to do a complete drain and refill? If you're doing a partial drain & refill, you don't need the dichlor. If your pool's pH tends to drift down, like mine, you may never need MA.

Pappy

Today I have received my Taylor K2006 test kit I bought from Amazon.
I have tested the CYA levels. On a 50% diluted sample (as suggested by Pappy) CYA Level was 100 which corresponds to 200.

Looks like HTH machine result is confirmed. I decided to go ahead drain the pool. Both chlorine and ph and bromium levels are high too as I was adding 10 % bleach to get rid of the algae in any case.

So tomorrow is the big day. Will discharge the pool, power wash and fill up. For a 10,000 gal pool to bring the CYA levels to required 50 ppm what do I need to do ?

I still have some 3 inch trichlor tablets if I am to use them approximately how many tablets I would need before switching to use bleach? Is there a rule of thumb ? Or shall I hold off using tablets and start with bleach or some other product ?

[BigDave]

8lbs of pure trichlor will get your CYA to just under 50ppm, 10lbs will bring to just over 60ppm. Be prepared, trichlor will push pH down, pH below 6.8 can damage your pool's surface.

Have you tested your fill water?

[CarlD]

Be VERY careful with the power washer and use it on the lowest setting. I've seen mine actually strip the stain and even rip wood off my cedar fencing and decking--you do NOT want to damage your finish! Personally, I'd rather see you brush the pool with a pool brush.

When you refill, Tri-Chlor tabs and Di-Chlor powder WILL add CYA to your water--Di-chlor will add both chlorine and CYA faster than the Tri-chlor tabs.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think 1 lb of Di-chlor SHOULD give you an initial FC of about 6.6ppm to 10,000 gallons of water. (which means roughly 6ppm of CYA). I'm basing this on Chem_Geek's post that 24.1 oz of Di-Chlor will add 10ppm of FC to 10,000 gallons.

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php/23659-di-chlor-question?highlight=chem_geek

[PoolDoc]

PF of a 10k pool is 12.

Available chlorine of dichlor is usually either 61% or 55%. Assuming 61%, 1lb x 0.61 x 12 = 7.3 ppm FC per lb of dichlor in a 10k gal pool.

Dichlor adds about 9 ppm of CYA for every 10 ppm of chlorine, so 7.32 x 0.9 = 6.6 ppm FC

==============

Each pound of 61% dichlor will add 7.3 ppm of chlorine and 6.6 ppm of CYA to a 10K pool

[chem geek]

Pretty much all Dichlor you get in pool stores is the dihydrate that has 55% Available Chlorine (pure Dichlor dihydrate would be 55.4%, but product is usually around 99% pure). The anhydrous form of Dichlor (if pure) has 64.5% Available Chlorine but it's not normally sold because as shown in this post (http://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/9834-National-Fire-Protection-Association-(NFPA)-Ratings), the anhydrous Dichlor is a Class 3 oxidizer similar to Cal-Hypo at > 50% concentration while the dihydrate is a Class 1 oxidizer similar to Trichlor. So to avoid the additional storage, shipping, and warning requirements associated with a Class 3 oxidizer, the dihydrate form is pretty much the only one sold for pools and spas.

So Carl's calculation is correct that 1 pound of Dichlor (dihydrate) in 10,000 gallons would yield 6.6 ppm FC and 6.0 ppm CYA.

[MattinAZ]

Here is a follow up on the situation,

Bur, first of all many thanks for all the replies I have received. I really appreciate it

I have drained, cleaned and filled the pool. I didn't use the pressure washer cleaned the pool with brush while draining. Also replaced the filter cartridges.

While filling the pool I have added house hold bleach at intervals about 2 - 2.5 cup at a time.
It took about half a bottle (half of 3.78 qt jug)

Once the pool is full I took a sample and test with my Taylor K2006 kit. Here are the results

FC. 1.2 ppm
CC O
PH. 7.8
TA. 120 ppm
CH. 110 ppm (Calcium Hardness)
CYA. 0

My plan is either

1) to use 3 inch tablets until I reach the needed CYA level and then switch to BBB method.
Also it looks like I need to build CC and lower the ph a little, which I guess the tablets will help with that too

Or

2) I can skip the tablets, buy conditioner to raise the CYA level and continue with Bleach as needed

I'll appreciate your comments/suggestions

Thanks very much

Matt

[BigDave]

1a) You are using BBB - it's not a recipe, just a catchy name for using only the chemicals your pool needs and finding them at reasonable prices.
1b) If you have the trichlor tabs I recommend you use them up. How much do you have on hand? You won't be able to measure CYA level until you've used about 5lbs (10 3" tabs) so don't waste the reagent. If the trichlor dissolves too slowly to maintain FC, supplement with bleach. Don't pour the bleach on the trichlor. The trichlor will tend to push pH down - keep an eye on that and add Borax if it gets to 7.0.
1c) You will need calcium to protect the finish. About 20lbs of calcium chloride should get your 11K gallons to 300ppm.

2) If you have the trichlor already, why buy stabilizer (conditioner) and then have to get rid of the trichlor?

.

[Watermom]

If you DON'T have trichlor, instead why don't you use our Super Simple Start-up Recipe:> http://pool9.net/ssr/

By the way, your CC reading is perfect. Ideally, you want it to be 0.

[MattinAZ]

I do have about 15lbs of trichloroethane left, therefore I'll start with trichlor until I reach the required CYA level.

Keeping an eye on ph, fc and the rest. But will test CYA in 3 to 4 weeks

I'm a little confused about the calcium levels though.my Calcium Hardness is 110 and living in Southern AZ I know we have hard water. Do I still need to add calcium, if yes where do I buy calcium chloride ? Will this be in lieu of trichlor tablets or bleach as it looks like calcium chloride has chlorine in it ?

Thanks very much

Matt

[CarlD]

For your pebbletec pool, like all hard-sided pools, the recommended CH level is 200-400ppm. zif you expect to be adding hard water to your pool, you MAY want to rely on that to get you to 200ppm. You can supplement your chlorine with Cal-Hypo, preferably with a content of at least 60%. it will add calcium as well.

Meanwhile, your CYA is low and your pH is on the high side so your tri-chlor tabs are perfect for lowering pH and adding CYA.

Just be sure you don't mix the two. Dangerous. Once dissolved in the water, they are safe.

[BigDave]

You and Carl make a good point - How hard is your makeup water and how much do you have to make up weekly? You do want to get the CH above 200 (preferably closer to 300) pretty soon or the water will take calcium out of the surface.

[MattinAZ]

Thanks for the heads up on required CH levels

Yesterday we had a rain storm (yes it rains in Southern Arizona) and shocked the pool using 1 lb HTH Super I had at home. It is about 56.44 percent Cal Hypo according to the label.

The test results I did this morning, using K2006 are as follows ;

FC 3.8 ppm (up from 1.2 ppm)
CC 0.2 ppm ( more like 0.1 ppm)
pH 7.8 (same as before)
TA 120 ppm (no change)
CH 110 ppm (no change)
CYA not tested as I am using TriChlor tablets (3 at a time in a floater, started 2 days ago) will be tested in a month or so

Theoretically 1.25 lb of this product shoul raise my CH by 0.1 ppm but I have used 1 lb and the strong rain I guess are the reasons CH didn't rise. We'll at least it didn't go down either.

So my plan for today is to go out and buy about 10 lbs of Cal Hypo and use it at the rate of 1 lb a day every night until I reach at least 200 ppm of CA. By this way we can still use the pool if I can keep FC around 3-4 ppm

1) Is this a sound plan or will it be better if I use say about 8 lbs of Cal Hypo at once and restrict pool usage until FC returns to normal. I am guessing this will push the FC levels up, could this be damaging to the pool ?

2) if I can't find 60 percent Cal Hypo is it OK to use 56.44 percent material? Or should I order stronger Cal Hypo online.

Thanks very much

Matt

[MattinAZ]

Regarding hardness of my makeup water

I have checked our water authority's web site it says it is 110 ppm which is consistent with my results. So I definitely need to raise the CH levels

[BigDave]

If you keep the pH on the high end (7.8), you should be able to chlorinate with cal-hypo until you reach your calcium goal. It will take a while. Each pound of 53% cal-hypo should raise your FC by a little less than 6 and raise the CH by 4. Don't dump 8lbs all in at once, use it as your primary source of chlorine until you reach your CH goal. By my figuring, you'll need to use up more like 30lbs of 53% cal-hypo to get above 200ppm.

[MattinAZ]

Thanks for reply

I am using HTH shock for the time being 56% CalHypo but also ordered 24 lbs Doheny's pool shock 66 % CalHypo. Once I receive it I'll use that product and will report the results.

I'm also having bubbles in the return do you know of a good product to reseal the connections without taking them apart? I wrapped shopping bag and it seemed to slow it

I bought Rectorseal's Tplus2 from HD would that work or what product should be used ? Would appreciate suggestions

Thanks
Matt

[BigDave]

I'm a bit confused about the bubbles. You think you have a leak in the suction side that's bringing air into the pump and filter? Those are hard to find. I've read about people having success finding suction leaks by smearing shaving on the fitting and looking for it to get sucked in. One poster here this year stopped a leak with shaving cream - go figure. if you know a threaded fitting is leaking and you don't want to open it, you could try smearing some non-hardening PVC compatible thread seal on the end you can reach.

[CarlD]

Air could getting in at numerous places, such as a badly sealing pump basket cover, or a leaking multivalve, along with places along the drain lines.

[MattinAZ]

I'm in the process of replacing strainer cover o ring, filter o ring and the filter drain plug o ring, I also suspect one jandy valve so I'll replace it's o rings as we'll. also thanks for the shaving foam trick, I'll definitely give it a try.

Can you give me a few examples (commercial names) for the non hardening PVC compatible seal, local guys at HD are not very, you know, and there are so many different types of caulk.

Looks like I have a nice project for the weekend

Will report once prints are replaced

Thanks
Matt

[BigDave]

Oatey Great Blue pipe thread sealant is one I've used. I believe many people like a Rectorseal product but I haven't used it.

[MattinAZ]

Thanks very much for the sealant brand

Meanwhile after replacing the o-rings especially the Jandy valve o-ring it looks like the air problem is solved. I also need to replace the 6 way valve for the pop ups, ordered one online already.

Now back to shocking to pool to bring the hardness up. By the way HTH shock is leaving a residue making the pool cloudy I'll start running the pump overnight, hope it clears

Thanks
Matt

[BigDave]

You don't need to shock the pool. Just use the Cal-hypo for regular chlorination until you reach CH goal.
What kind of filter do you have?

[MattinAZ]

Oh what I meant by shocking was using CalHypo.

Anyway last night I have used 2 lbs 56% CalHypo and let the pump run, this morning it is clean and clear :)
Due to lack of CYA chlorine from CalHypo tends to disappear by late afternoon, pool receives direct sun for at least 8-9 hours a day and I am in Southern AZ. But then I use it again same night (1 lb bag) and let the pump run. Meanwhile I am also using the tablets (TriChlor) to build up the CYA levels

Here are the test results as of 1 pm today (this after using 2lbs CalHypo last night after hit by a rain storm).

FC 3.8 ppm
CC 0.1 ppm
pH 7.6 (down from 7.8)
TA 120 ppm (unchanged)
CH 140 ppm (up from 110)

For the filter I have Clean & Clear plus 320 (pentair) with new cartridges.

Thanks
Matt

[CarlD]

You'll want to keep using that Cal-Hypo or add calcium powder as you have a PebbleTec pool and your CH is still 60ppm under the recommended range of 200-400.

[BigDave]

I'm pretty sure CarlD warned you earlier, but, I'll say it again since you are using trichlor and cal-hypo at the same time. Don't let undissolved trichlor and cal-hypo near each other.

[MattinAZ]

@ Carl & Big Dave thanks for the heads up on cal hypo and trichlor.

As of today I have actually stopped using trichlor as my test results are ;

FC 1.6 ( this after staying under the sun whole day and last dichlor was added 48 hrs ago )
CC 0.1 ppm
pH 7.8
TA 100 ppm (down from 120 five days ago)
CA 170 ppm (up from 140 ppm 5 days ago, it is rising nicely, Doheny's CalHypo speeded up the process, used 3 lbs in 5 days)
CYA 35 ppm (black dot disappeared after 40 ppm but before 30 ppm so I am taking the average)

As of today I have stopped the trichlor, I was very surprised how quickly Pool Brands tablets was adding CYA. I have used probably about 10ea 3 inch tablets to bring it to 35 from 0, and it was not adding much chlorine. Now I guess I know why my CYA shot upto 200 pm before I drained the pool.

Plan is to continue with dichlor until I reach somewhere around 200 - 220 ppm CA and then to switch to bleach and add other Bs as needed. I will be checking chlorine and pH daily with dye based test and running full test about twice weekly.

I hope I can keep the pool in balance.

Thanks for all the help I've received from this forum, I really appreciate it.

Matt

[CarlD]

I think you mean cal-hypo, not di-chlor, as di-chlor adds CYA faster than Tri-chlor. Di-Chlor does NOT add calcium, Cal-hypo does. If your CYA goal was higher (like for a SWCG or southern clime), the tri-chlor would be good as it would lower your pH as well.

FYI: Tri-chlor add about 6ppm of CYA for every 10ppm of FC, while Di-chlor add about 9ppm of CYA for every 10ppm of FC, but tri-chlor is much more acidic.

[MattinAZ]

I did mean CalHypo :))

Since I'm southern Climate (I'm in S. Arizona) what should be my ideal CYA level ? Is 35 ppm too low ?

Thanks
Matt

[PoolDoc]

BBB - it's not a recipe, just a catchy name for using only the chemicals your pool needs and finding them at reasonable prices

Good explanation.

@ MattinAZ => 35 is pretty low. 80 will make things easier . . . IF you continue to use cal hypo. But if you use dichlor / trichlor, it will go up on its own, more than you need, so you shouldn't add any.