Iron in water source

[stcohen]

New liner in 22000 in ground pool. Filled with well water. Now green-brown. Would like ti REMOVE iron if possible. No other water source available.

[PoolDoc]

You have 3 options:

1. You can remove the iron directly from the fill water, using a "greensand" filter or various types of water softeners, filled with properly selected ion exchange resins. This approach only works with iron that is still soluble. You cannot use this method with iron that is ALREADY orange and cloudy in the water.

2. You can set up a small Intex type pool, to pre-treat the water, and allow the iron to settle, before pumping iron-free water into the pool.

3. You can attempt to manage the iron AFTER it goes into the your pool.

None of these approaches are effortless. The first one is likely to give the best results, but ONLY if you install a large system, and meticulously follow the maintenance requirements to maintain the ion-exchange media.

The 2nd approach is probably the cheapest, requiring a $400 Intex pool and maybe $100 for a transfer pump, piping, and hoses.

The 3rd approach is, of course, what's typically done, and usually leads to stains, since it's difficult to actually REMOVE the iron from the pool, once it's in the pool. You can re-dissolve it, lifting the stains, but that simply MOVES the iron from the stains, back into the pool water.

[PoolDoc]

Filled with well water. Now green-brown.

1. Purchase 4 - 6 quart of polyquat => http://pool9.net/polyquat/
2. Run your filter 24/7.
3. Add a DOUBLE dose of polyquat immediately, directly to the pool.
4. Purchase a K2006 testkit ASAP => http://pool9.net/tk/
5. Purchase a cheapo OTO/phenol red drops kit locally. Use it to adjust your pH to near 7.0 . . . but NOT lower.
6. Order a quart of 60% HEDP or 3 quarts of 20%:


Jacks Magic The Pink Stuff 1qt (60% HEDP) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003MYEU3E/scouscho-20) @ Amazon
20% KemTek HEDP (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEI22/scouscho-20) @ Amazon

7. If you KNOW your pool is already stained, order -- but do not use yet -- several pounds of ascorbic acid:
Ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) can be used to remove copper and iron stains from pool surfaces, and put the metal BACK into your pool water. (Not likely to be available locally, except as Vitamin pills.)

Ascorbic Acid Powder (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0013OUMVO/scouscho-20) @ Amazon
Ascorbic Acid Vitamin C Powder USP Pharma Grade 11 Lbs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B005ISFX7O/scouscho-20) @ Amazon
8. Continue dosing with polyquat every 2 days.
9. If the pool remains green, consider adding borax; 60 ppm of borates will make it easier to kill the algae. On your pool, this would require about 22 boxes of 20 Mule Team borax and about 7 gallons of 31% (full strength) muriatic acid. (See http://pool9.net/ma/

The problem you have is that adding chlorine to a pool full of iron tends to make staining inevitable. Ideally, you need to remove the iron BEFORE you begin chlorinating. BUT, you can't let the pool become a slime pit during this period.

[stcohen]

As I feared, would really like to get Fe out. Have been using BBB method for years. Did great until liner need replacing and could not get anyone to deliver water this time in this very rural area.
I have Taylor K2006c & K1000 test kits
Pool Specifics:
IG vinyl; 22,000 gallons; sand filter, 1HP pump
FC: 5ppm
CC: 0.5 ppm
pH: 7.6
Ca hardness: 80 ppm (turns purple, not blue)
Alk: 160 ppm
CYA: 70 ppm
Plan to decrease pH to 7.2 with muriatic acid tomorrow
Will get the polyquat
No stains currently-removed with Vit C
? past point for a Culator or do they even work?
Thanks for your help.

[PoolDoc]

CuLator units work . . . very slowly and ONLY on dissolved iron. If it's orange, or in a stain, the CuLator has no effect.

Use the methods above, but order these:
CCH Calcium Hypochlorite Tablets 50 lb bucket (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00H81OM08/scouscho-20/)

You can use cal hypo tabs like these in the skimmer -- ONLY in the skimmer -- to remove iron and place it on the calcium residue from the cal hypo, which is then trapped by the filter.

Chemically, what's happening when you use these correctly is pretty complicated, but practically speaking, it's very, very simple. Let me know when you have them, and I'll walk you through it.

[stcohen]

OK, got the chems
6 quarts polyquat
1 quart Jacks Magic Pink
50 lbs Ca hypochlorite

pH 7.2
FC 0
Water deep green, almost clear with Fe sediment on bottom. Vacuumed to waste what I could. No stains apparent.

Waiting for instructions. Thanks

[PoolDoc]

OK, great.

1. Add a label dose of Pink Stuff -- I don't know what the label says, but just follow the label

2. Add 1 quart of polyquat. Then follow that with 1/4 quart every 2 days.

3. Make SURE there is no trichlor or any feeder in the skimmer or in the piping between the skimmer and the filter.

4. Make sure the pump is on 24/7. (Low speed is OK, if you have it.)

5. Clean the skimmer basket, then add 1 - 2 cal hypo tabs in to the skimmer.

6. Report how long it takes to dissolve the tabs. Don't add more than 1/2 pound per day.

[stcohen]

It took 2 hours for 2 hypo tabs to disappear (1 tab in each of the 2 skimmer baskets).
Approx. how many tabs in 1/2 lb. for daily use?

[FormerBromineUser]

Did you weigh them maybe? Weigh a bunch that you can measure on your scale and do some division. (Really just poking your thread because it might have gotten missed). You're doing great following instructions @pooldoc

[stcohen]

lol. Saw that as soon as I hit the send button.
Something slowly happening.
pH went to almost 8, lowered back to 7.2 with muriatic acid
Backwashed filter twice since started this. Discharging milky water, clears with in 2 minutes
Will stick with PoolDoc's regimen

[FormerBromineUser]

Good for you! BTW, PoolDoc's Dad passed yesterday so you might not hear from him directly for a while. Let us know if you need help! Sounds like you are on the right track although I am a bit surprised that your backwash discharge is just white. White from Calcium but I think it would have an orange-ish tint from the iron. What color is your water now?

[stcohen]

I saw PoolDoc's post. Good looking family. I'm sorry for his loss, losing a parent is never easy.
Pool water is clear with a greenish tint. Still a significant amount of "rust" colored sediment on bottom.

[stcohen]

F/U
Had to correct pH again this morning. Sediment seems to go back into solution with lowering the pH and water now green.
Adequate HEPD?

[FormerBromineUser]

.
Hey. I am not an expert here (for sure!). I have been a pool owner/operator for many years so there are some things I know pretty well. However, I am new to the BBB method so there are tons of things I don't know very well. BUT I want to keep a conversation going in the hopes of attracting a moderator/expert, so let's keep talking.

Are you continuing with the cal-hypo/backwashing and the 1 cup Polyquat every other day too?

-HEDP is yucky stuff and it stays in the water for a while. I would hesitate to add more only because the purpose behind using it IS to get metals in solution and it sounds like that is what's happening.


You can use cal hypo tabs... in the skimmer -- ONLY in the skimmer -- to remove iron and place it on the calcium residue from the cal hypo, which is then trapped by the filter.

As I understand it, the iron must be in solution for this to work. I used this same process with my iron-loaded new fill water and I am now metal-free!

I might suggest also that you go into "settings" and create a signature with your pool info. It helps the mods so they don't have to scroll back to see your pool specs.
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php/12181-Make-a-signature-line!

[BigDave]

A couple things I've noticed in this thread.
@FormerBromineUser: I think the HEDP is intended to keep the iron in solution.
@stochen: I think the idea is to let the pH stay high and create a high pH / high chlorine zone in the skimmer so the iron comes out on the filter with the calcium. When you drop the pH, you might redissolve the iron that's in the filter. Perhaps drop it no lower than 7.8. Can you vacuum the orange stuff.

[FormerBromineUser]

BigDave: Glad you're here :)

Yes, the HEDP is to keep the iron in solution and it sounds like that's what stcohen is describing as happening.
Do you think he needs to add more?

I saw Ben's references (quoted below) about chlorine.
Clean the skimmer basket, then add 1 - 2 cal hypo tabs in to the skimmer... Don't add more than 1/2 pound per day.
The problem you have is that adding chlorine to a pool full of iron tends to make staining inevitable. Ideally, you need to remove the iron BEFORE you begin chlorinating. BUT, you can't let the pool become a slime pit during this period.

All I found about pH is below. I'm wondering about raising pH to 7.8...:
...adjust your pH to near 7.0 . . . but NOT lower.

[BigDave]

I'm pretty sure bringing the pH down was to get and keep the iron in solution to start then use HEDP to try to keep it in solution.

I believe the mechanism for removing iron with cal-hypo is to let the cal-hypo raise the pH causing the iron to drop out on the filter with the calcium precipitate. I would backwash before dropping the pH. Did you do it that way already or did you backwash after dropping the pH?.

[stcohen]

Yes, I am continuing with the cal-hypo/backwashing and the 1 cup Polyquat every other day. 3rd dose polyquat today.
BigDave, that makes sense, I think I did it that way but I will make sure to backwash before dropping the pH again.
Thanks,

[BigDave]

I haven't seen a recent pH or chlorine reading. How are you with chlorine?

Is the water clear but green or opaque green?

[stcohen]

This am pH 7.4, FC >5, water somewhat opaque green.
Have to leave until Fri. am. Will of course keep filter running; backwash and retest on return.

[stcohen]

Returned home. today
FC 5
CC 0.5
pH 7.4
TA 60
Ca hardness 130
CYA 50
Water appears green, not opaque, sediment on bottom, less than when I started this. Placed 1 cal-hypo in each skimmer. Plan to try a vacuum what sediment I can to waste this afternoon and backwash filter. Will adjust pH down after that if necessary.

[BigDave]

Orange sediment on bottom?

[stcohen]

Yes

[BigDave]

Is the filter pressure rising? Are the returns getting weak or is there poor skimmer action? Do you have a 2 speed pump?
It seems clear that the chlorine / raising pH is making the iron come out but it's not settling on the filter as we'd hoped.

[stcohen]

Pressure not really increasing. Returns are strong,1 speed pump (1HP). Had sand in filter changed (200 lb., I think) when I had liner placed
Agree with your assessment, filter does not seem to be capturing much iron.

[FormerBromineUser]

Are you only adding 1 cal-hypo tab per skimmer per day or the half pound max recommended by PoolDoc?

[BigDave]

I'd let the filter go without backwash until the pressure is about 8lbs over clean. The dirtier the filter, the finer debris it will remove. Try to vacuum to the filter and see if the orange stays in. We already know it catches the calcium precipitate. I also think you can let the pH continue to float up to 8. PoolDoc may correct me when he returns but I'm pretty sure that's the plan.

[FormerBromineUser]

BigDave is right! Make that filter work. Also, you may consider adding DE to your filter via skimmer. (See sticky). We will all be joyous when PoolDoc returns in full! Also still wondering about cal-hypo dosage.

[stcohen]

AM:
Have backed off to 1 tab per skimmer per day. Will vacuum to filter this morning and see if it will catch and hold the sediment. I really do appreciate your help

PM:
pH 8.0, Vacuumed to filter. Basically captured nothing, returns basically putting what I vacuumed back into pool. No change in pressure and returns remain strong. Getting pretty frustrated.

.

[FormerBromineUser]

BigDave: I am thinking that there was not enough calcium on the filter media to catch the sediment. He is only using 1 tab cal-hypo and has been doing a lot of back-washing. What do you think?
BTW, here is a link to adding DE: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php/3742-Adding-DE-to-sand-filter

[BigDave]

I'm concerned that the filter is not working properly. As FormerBromineUser suggests, you can add DE to a sand filter to get it to catch smaller particles. You can test the filter with some DE as described in this link: http://pool9.net/de-test/ (http://pool9.net/de-test/). please do as it sounds like your filter is not working correctly.

[stcohen]

I will get the DE and try it. I've been concerned that the filter is not working correctly also. As I mentioned I had the sand replaced when I had to replace the liner. Was something done wrong or any idea what it could be? Right now have towels is both baskets. Catching lots of mineral. Rinsing and repeating. Probably just entertaining myself as it would probably take a month of Sundays. Was hoping the reduced flow would allow sand to begin to catch something. Flow still strong however. Please understand my frustration is with my pool, I appreciate all the time you, FormerBromideUser and PoolDoc have given this. I've had a pool 15+ years and never had to deal with a metal problem before. Wow!!!

[stcohen]

2/3 cup DE increased pressure 1 - 2 psi
pH 7.2, FC 5
Metal in solution, water opaque green.
Still doing 1 cup polyquat every other day.
Guess it's time to begin the cal-hypo again?

[BigDave]

Forgive me for asking, but, why 1 C polyquat every other day? FC of 5 for CYA 50 should be fine for algae control.
How did the pH get from 8.0 to 7.2? If you used MA, did you backwash first? How did backwash look?
CC 0.0?
Completely opaque or cloudy? Are orange particles gone?
Is DE still in filter?

[stcohen]

Wondered myself but adding polyquat per PoolDoc's origin post to me.
pH was 8.
Backwashed, mostly milky white. Got baseline pressure.
Added DE 1/3 at a time. Total 2/3 cup raised psi 1-2
Used MA to lower pH
Very cloudy, not quite opaque. No particles.
DE is in system, added after backwash.

[FormerBromineUser]

.
CC reading?
.
While BigDave is thinking, make a mental note about DE. It should work well for you in removing iron. It also is very good on an on-going basis to filter out smaller particles in sand filters. You just have to remember to add 2/3C after each backwash.

[stcohen]

Will do.
After 2 days and 2+ inches of rain I thought I better test all with 2006c kit.
Currently:
pH 7.2
FC 1.0
CC 0.4
TA 50
Ca hardness 160

[JimK]

Forgive me for asking, but, why 1 C polyquat every other day? FC of 5 for CYA 50 should be fine for algae control.
How did the pH get from 8.0 to 7.2? If you used MA, did you backwash first? How did backwash look?
CC 0.0?
Completely opaque or cloudy? Are orange particles gone?
Is DE still in filter?

I've read posts by Ben that said polyquat also acts as a clarifier, so my guess is that's it's purpose here.

[FormerBromineUser]

.
While waiting for an answer from someone more knowledgable than me, get some cal-hypo in there pronto!!!!
FC is WAY too low at 1.0.
Keep an eye on your filter pressure.

[stcohen]

OK, just added 1 cal hypo to each skimmer. Will watch pressure. Do not plan to backwash until pressure increases.

[FormerBromineUser]

Retest FC 1 hour after the tabs dissolve. I am thinking you need more cal-hypo but retesting will tell you. Get FC up to >5.0 SOON !
Please don't backwash (rinses out DE and calcium layer) until you absolutely have to. (don't vacuum to waste either)

[BigDave]

I agree that you should keep FC at or above 5ppm. Use the cal-hypo tabs to maintain FC at 5.0ppm. Let us know how the pool responds as pH and FC rises.

[stcohen]

So, this am pH 8, FC >>5. Pressure at filter and water appearance unchanged.
Slowed return by approx. 50% by adding more DE (used an additional 1/3 cup).
Water began clearing. Vacuumed to filter until began to come out of return.
Backwashed when psi increased and flow slowed-rust in discharge.
Then added 1 cup each DE and polyquat. 1 cal-hypo in each basket.
Will check in am.

[FormerBromineUser]

.
I am optimistic! Good job! Did you adjust your pH down a tad?

It still may take a while, but keep up with the system: DE, cal-hypo, and holding off on back-washing until you must. It sounds like the filter is working just fine. I could be wrong, but I think you might have just been back-washing/vacuuming to waste too often for the system to work.

Don't hurry, but next time you are at the hardware store, get a new, large white bucket (usually in paint dept for under $5). When you stop seeing symptoms of iron you will want to run a metals-bucket test to make sure it's gone. Here's the link so you can begin reading up:

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php/16946-Bucket-test-for-metals

[stcohen]

pH 8.0, FC >>>5
Lower pH to what level? Do I want Fe back in solution? What would that do to captured Fe in filter?
Felt like filter couldn't capture/hold Fe until flow decreased significantly.

[FormerBromineUser]

Can you get it down to 7.8? You do need to keep iron in solution, so just a tad.

Hard to tell about the filter cause more than one variable was changed... Just keep up with what you're doing unless an expert chimes in. Your method seems to be working. I am not very knowledgable about filters but I did have PoolDoc holding my hand through the process of removing my iron. He wanted my pH no higher than 7.8.

By the way, just curious. What part of Virginia are you from? My son goes to college there and I spend a lot of time in-state. (Headed there Saturday, actually)

[BigDave]

pH 8.0, FC >>>5How high is the FC? Is there any CC?


Lower pH to what level? Do I want Fe back in solution? What would that do to captured Fe in filter?I would wait until FC drops back to 5 and the filter must be backwashed then backwash, bring pH to 7.6, replace DE, start chlorinating with cal-hypo again.


Felt like filter couldn't capture/hold Fe until flow decreased significantly.I agree, this is good.

[stcohen]

Improving slowly. pH now at 7.8
I can see this will take some time but I think I've got the filter working thanks to the DE. Think I had been going in circles until able to reduce flow which improved the sand filtration.
Live in Mathews, VA... near Chesapeake Bay. Lived in Richmond, VA mostly but retired to our river home last year.
Thanks for your help and support.

[FormerBromineUser]

Your years of pool ownership paid off figuring that out! BigDave was wondering about FC and CC. Any numbers for him?

I got off topic with VA. Sorry, but I love VA. I still have some living relatives there; the rest of them are in Hollywood Cemetery... My SAR and Jamestowne Society (1620) son wanted VA for college. Got accepted at Univ of Richmond, William and Mary, Washington and Lee, and Bridgewater in the Shenandoah Valley. He chose Bridgewater for many reasons, mostly because he made the tennis team. He also made both the tennis and golf teams at VA Weslyan but chose the mtns over the coast. Ok, I'm done.

[stcohen]

No obvious improvement overnight. Pressure up 2-3 psi so probably caught something.
pH 7.8 - 8.0
FC 10
CC 0.5
Not sure what to do right now.