Question in regards to pool plumbing

[DennisP]

I am getting to the point of plumbing the equipment pad and I was wondering how much of a loss would there be using those combination 1.5"/2" (socket/spigot) valves on my setup?

As it stands I have 2" PVC run to the pool and to the equipment pad. I am running a Pentair Dynamo 1.5hp 2-speed above ground pool pump, which has a 1.5" NPT inlet. From the piping I will have a ball valve, then a union which will have a 2" to 1.5" NPT male adapter in it which will go directly into the pump. From the pump I have a 1.5" buttress union going to a 1.5" to 2" adapter street elbow. That goes via 2" PVC to the Sta-Rite System3 cartridge filter. From the filter it is all 2" to a check valve, then 3 way valve (one way will bypass the heater to the return, the other will go to the heater), then to the heater, from the heater to a check valve and ball valve (to totally isolate the heater positively if it is in bypass for service), then to the return piping (which will also have a ball valve).

Now the big question is how much flow is lost through the 1.5"/2" combo valves that are out there?

I know there is a flo-tech ball valve that is half union with that combo, a clear check valve that is configured that way, and the Jandy 4715 3 way valve also has this combo. Going with these items is almost a 1/2 cost savings going with these combo valves, but I don't want to kill the advantage of going with 2" piping and filter if going with these valves will compromise it that much.

I also have plumbed in extra 2" piping to the pool to give me options for water features or extra skimmers/returns, so it is not out of the question that I may upgrade to a higher-flowing pump in the future.

Last question is it acceptable to use "all purpose" PVC adhesive to connect CPVC piping to PVC piping? The heater (Jandy Lite2 250k) calls for CPVC connections at the heater with at least a 6" nipple, so I was going to use a close nipple with 90 degree CPVC elbows to allow for closer connections since my equipment pad space is at a premium with the heater on it.

[CarlD]

I'm not sure about the 1.5 to 2" connections, but I do wonder why you don't go 1.5" all the way.

There are special glues formulated to handle CPVC heat, and I believe they can be used for PVC as well. But I'd be leery of using PVC on CPVC where there's heat.

[DennisP]

I'm not sure about the 1.5 to 2" connections, but I do wonder why you don't go 1.5" all the way.

There are special glues formulated to handle CPVC heat, and I believe they can be used for PVC as well. But I'd be leery of using PVC on CPVC where there's heat.

Well, considering the pool is 70 feet away from the equipment pad I am trying to limit head loss. Since I am doing the installation, I figure 2" is the way to go, since the price is negligible compared to 1.5".

Also, since the filter is 2" connections, the heater is 2" connections, it just kinda makes sense to keep things 2" all around as much as possible.

I have hard that a single 1.5" fitting isn't as big of a deal as all 1.5" pipe, thus my query. I figure if folks have been doing this a while, someone would probably know if there are any issues one way or another.

In regards to the CPVC to PVC connection, I will probably just use the CPVC cement to connect the nipples to the elbow and use a threaded connection to connect the opposite side of the elbow to the regular PVC piping then. I know the instructions for the heater state to use the CPVC nipples to connect to regular PVC piping, in which case they expect a glued connection. No big deal and I would rather be safe about it and I know the "preferred" method of CPVC to PVC transition is via male/female connections, so I will just go that route.

[nefretrameses]

My pool had three 1-1/2 inch lines on the suction side of the pump all teed together to the 1-1/2 inch pump fitting. Then 1-1/2 to the filter and back to the pool. At the pool there's an in-floor cleaner valve to four circuits. I had the opportunity to change to 2 inch from the pump discharge to the in-floor valve - about 60 feet total. My discharge pressure dropped by about 1/3. Your fittings will cause some loss, but the 2 inch pipe is really gonna be the biggest factor. You can use two 45 degree fittings instead of 90's and save a bit more.

Not sure about your combo valves or adhesive. There should be a way to adapt PVC to CPVC, but its not in my bag of tricks to know how. If your heater wants a 6 inch nipple, its probably for "straightening out" the water stream before it gets inside. Not sure how much you want to compromise that, but again, its not really in my bag of tricks. Sorry.

[DennisP]

My pool had three 1-1/2 inch lines on the suction side of the pump all teed together to the 1-1/2 inch pump fitting. Then 1-1/2 to the filter and back to the pool. At the pool there's an in-floor cleaner valve to four circuits. I had the opportunity to change to 2 inch from the pump discharge to the in-floor valve - about 60 feet total. My discharge pressure dropped by about 1/3. Your fittings will cause some loss, but the 2 inch pipe is really gonna be the biggest factor. You can use two 45 degree fittings instead of 90's and save a bit more.

Not sure about your combo valves or adhesive. There should be a way to adapt PVC to CPVC, but its not in my bag of tricks to know how. If your heater wants a 6 inch nipple, its probably for "straightening out" the water stream before it gets inside. Not sure how much you want to compromise that, but again, its not really in my bag of tricks. Sorry.

Yeah, I am more worried about the 1.5"/2" combo fittings/valves being a restriction point more than anything else...

In regards to the 6 inch nipple, the only reason they have that is so that if there is a thermal control problem with the heater you don't melt connected PVC pipe (since CPVC has a much higher rated temperature). The issue has more to do with the potential heat of the manifold compared to the water, ie, if there is a thermal problem the water can be cooler but the manifold can get much hotter. By the time the thermal overload switches disable the heater the manifold can be much to hot for PVC to handle, so with CPVC and a length of 6" they are just anticipating that it would hopefully save the PVC up/downstream from the heater. The big concern outside of a thermal issue is if you don't put a firemans switch in and just shut down the pump/heater and water boils inside the heater. A much more common occurrence and 6" of CPVC is hopefully enough to protect any PVC downstream/upstream from the heater.

I figure a short nipple with an immediate 90 and another nipple being threaded into a PVC female should afford for at least 6-8" of total CPVC distance. That coupled with my installing a firemans switch will make sure I don't run into that situation. The only time it *might* happen is if we lose power while the heater is running. At that point there isn't much I can do, so the CPVC should hopefully do it's job.

[nefretrameses]

Makes sense. Didn't think about heat.

[DennisP]

Well, just figured out the rest of the plumbing on the pad and picked up the majority of what I need... Doing PVC hardline isn't cheap when you are talking about dozens of elbows, lots of couplers, etc, etc... Luckily I only have a single Jandy 3-way valve (I am still amazed at the almost identical flow rates for the 1.5-2" valve vs the 2-2.5" valve at <70GPM). I just have to decide on the check valves (Jandys are nice and sexy, the problem is that there are complaints of the actual Jandy valve on Amazon having the spring and pivot rust) and I am done...

I am going to start plumbing things on the pad tomorrow... I only have 2 additional unions (one for suction line and one for return line where they come up after the shutoff valves), other than the half ones at the pump, the filter and the flanges at the heater. Other than that it will all be hardlined with no adjustability... I only have to order a couple of specialty fittings (like the 2" CPVC stuff) and then the only thing left is the plumbing out to the pool, which is all 10ft sections of PVC...

[DennisP]

Well, got everything built in the last three days, let it sit overnight and did a full system test using 1.5" flex hoses run to my 650gal hot tub as a water source... I ended up using all 2" fittings everywhere with the 1.5" connections at the pump... I also went with Jandy 3-way and check valves along with NDSPro ball valves/flap check valve for the heater backup protection...

Everything tests out great!

I noticed about 9.5psi of backpressure at the Sta-Rite System3 cartridge filter with the Dynamo 1.5hp pump on high... I also noticed that once I switched in the heater it basically added about 2psi of backpressure...

With the Dynamo on low it showed about 2psi of backpressure...

My Jandy Lite2 millivolt 250k btu heater worked great too... Started right up and heated the water great... I noticed that the 2psi of backpressure on low was enough to allow it to operate so I will have to check it once the entire system is plumbed in with 2" out to the pool and see if it still has the same pressures... I doubt it will... But in either case I will adjust the pressure switch to make sure it only comes on once the pump is on high... (I even considered a small 120v relay installed in the pump that would kickoff only when it was on high tied into the firemans switch loop as well, but we will see how it goes)

My water feed with check and ball valve worked great as well...

I let the entire system run on high dumping the first couple hundred gallons of water to flush out all the piping and the filter/heater/etc...

In the end I am just happy I have no leaks anywhere and everything works as expected... Now to get the skid steer here and get the pool built!!!

[CarlD]

Great pool plumbing! Now all you need is a pool! :)

J/K--great job. One caveat: I would make sure your ball valves are easily replaceable, either with quick-connects or threaded fittings. Ball valves DO fail and need to be replaced, so now's the time to make that job easier.

[DennisP]

HAHA!

Yeah, I know, cart before the horse... Sorry, just trying to get as much done as possible when I can... ;)

I also ordered the dual main drains, so that means I either have to modify the pad plumbing to account for the extra line for main drains, or put in a valve at the pool and switch there... Decisions, decisions...

[DennisP]

Ok, time for pics:

http://www.darklogic.net/backyard-2014/20140808_194535.jpg
http://www.darklogic.net/backyard-2014/20140808_194542.jpg
http://www.darklogic.net/backyard-2014/20140808_194555.jpg
http://www.darklogic.net/backyard-2014/20140808_194612.jpg
http://www.darklogic.net/backyard-2014/20140808_194622.jpg

I could have had the heater a little closer to the wall of the garage, but I do like the way it all worked out... I could always move it back a little, but that would require a me to extend a couple of connections... ie, it isn't worth it right now... I may also put the heater outdoor vent on it I got (picked it up for a steal at $27) and with that I would rather have it a little away from the garage... That way the top of the heater wouldn't get hot like it does now...

[DennisP]

Forgot to mention, yeah there are unions at the top of the stand pipes and they are threaded into male PVC connections just below grade, so it is a simple matter of exposing the lower threaded connections, unscrewing the stand pipes and doing what I need to...

I plan on doing that at the pool as well...

[BigDave]

... that means I either have to modify the pad plumbing to account for the extra line for main drains, or put in a valve at the pool and switch there...It's probably best to keep all the operations in the same place - if you can. It looks pretty tight on the pad. Nice work.

[DennisP]

Thanks, BigDave!

Yeah, even if I do the main drain integration out at the pool to begin with, I will by next season have it plumbed at the pad as well...

I forgot to mention that the area below the manifold by the heater is where the booster pump will sit if I go that route, and the area right between the heater and the existing pump in the back is perfect for a 15 gallon chlorine tank... I figure a Stenner 10GPD adjustable pump along with a 15 gallon 14" dia x 25" high round tank will pretty much take care of that pad for me...

If I go that route I will remove the water feed at the bottom of the main manifold, put a tee in with 2 90 degree elbows and then feed the chlorine in there as well as the water feed... My only concern is that the check valve could be sitting in a heavy chlorine concentrated solution, even though I checked with NPD and they stated that it would be fine in that application. Then again, it is only about $10 worth of valves/unions/fittings to replace that whole assembly, so it isn't a big deal...


Then again, for "no issues" I could always do a tapped fitting solvent-welded to the side of one of the tees or elbows and not have to worry about it... That is one of the major advantages of PVC, if you know what you are doing you can solvent-weld it pretty good without compromising the pipe...

[DennisP]

Well, just got done doing the accounting on the PVC pipe/fittings/spa flex hose/ball valves/etc...

Let's just say I got great pricing on most things locally (thank you Menards), including 50ft of 1.5" Spa Flex hose for $70 and my grand total without solvents/primers is right at $520. That is not including tax either. With the Jandy 3-way valve and CPVC and schedule 80 elbows, along with the large ball/check combo and the Jandy check valve, along with the gate valve/adapters/plumbing to hook up to the water spigot it is more like $675.

I already calculated out how much it is going to cost to add the 2-way diverter valve for the skimmer/main drain and it comes in at roughly $100 (includes a Jandy 2"/2.5" 3-way valve, 3 unions, 2 ball valves and some 90s and a male adapter). I should be able to get it to fit in the same space I have the first input at. I am also going to modify the existing input with a union on the riser so if I ever need to switch to a single input without the main drain I can easily. I know, busy work/expense, but I have saved my bacon in the past doing things just as "frivolous" and finding that it was ideal for something that came up, so for the extra 5 minutes of time and $9 for a union I figure it is worth it.

I must say I was a little surprised at how quickly most of it added up. Even though I have to admit the amount of time involved was massive compared to what I expected. I can see how this becomes an art form quickly for those that can think 3-dimensionally, and I can also see how in a lot of cases if the person doing the plumbing cant' think like that, it is a disaster.

What I still don't get is how expensive this stuff is when you have a pool installed. I mean the quotes I got when I called earlier this year were OUTRAGEOUS. Granted, I have $4500 worth of equipment and plumbing overall (on a new installations billing I am certain it would come out to at least that, if not more), but there is no way I could ever justify paying someone $10-14k for both the installation and equipment. Now I already had the electrical all installed and a simple rewire from 240v to 120v along with a breaker change to a GFCI was all that was needed, but still, it seems unreal for that kind of cost for what you end up with.

In the end I do believe the total cost of equipment and plumbing for the pad is right at $1900-2000 or so (I did get some killer deals, but there was a lot of work too), with all of it being either brand new, or slightly used good enough to consider as new. And I won't have to redo anything if I decide to go in-ground at some point. I can just tap into where the lines run in the yard and reuse everything I have.

[DennisP]

Everything is now complete at the equipment pad... I even installed the firemans switch relay, wired it to enable only via firemans switch and the pump on high. I also have the high/low speed relay installed as well (pump is always at low speed unless the timer commands the pump to run at high and I have a seperate timer for pump power altogether). I also have the ability to switch the pump to high from low and it will allow the heater to run regardless of the status of the firemans switch since it is on manual override.

Pics of the equipment pad:

http://www.darklogic.net/P1020568.JPG
http://www.darklogic.net/P1020569.JPG
http://www.darklogic.net/P1020570.JPG

And the plumbing waiting out by the pool location:
http://www.darklogic.net/P1020573.JPG

Now I just need some dry weather for about a week to get the limestone down and to start paving the patio... I don't think I am going to get to install the pool this year...

[CarlD]

Looks great.

But I won't be satisfied till you can monitor it and run it from your iPhone/Android from anywhere in the world!

JUST KIDDING! :D

[Watermom]

I can turn my pool pump on and off from my phone (or from my computer). Very convenient.

[CarlD]

Whoa! That is SERIOUSLY cool! I've seen plug-in wireless switches, but for a 220v line?

[DennisP]

Well, now that the pool is up, I figured I would follow-up with some pics of the plumbing out at the pool:

http://www.darklogic.net/20140909_183650.jpg
http://www.darklogic.net/20140909_191737.jpg

I can happily report that when I went to kick everything on once everything was done being plumbed (at 10pm no less!), everything runs exactly like I expected it to...

The System3 cartridge filter setup shows 10psi of pressure, there is no air in the system while running, switching between main drains and skimmer works great, the dual timer setup works awesome (one for main pump power on/off and the other for pump high/low coupled with a fireman's switch to make sure the heater shuts off 15-20 minutes before the pump kicks off high), the fireman's switch works great, the custom wiring to the pump to enable the fireman's switch when you manually kick it to high works perfect, and in general I am happy as can be that everything just flat out works as expected.

One item that concerns me is that I noticed that when the heater sits with water in it for a few days, when you flush water through it you get rusty water out of it. I know the heat exchanger has cast-iron manifolds, but is rust supposed to accumulate so quickly?

I mean should I expect to get rusty water out if I let the setup sit overnight with the pump off?

I figure I will probably want to run the pump on low for most of the day, say from 6am to 6pm, with a stint on high (to help clean things up and to add heat via the heater) from 6am to 8am and from 3pm to 5pm. I may also kick the pump on low from 11pm to 1am during the peak summertime to clean things up since I am certain I will be getting some night-time swimming in as well.