New Pool Construction by Owner - Equipment help!

[Lsanc]

Note: I also posted this question the newbies new post section, before I noticed there was a "subscriber section".

So I've decided to take on the fun (he said sarcastically) of building my new pool "by owner". I will be saving over $10K compared to builder's quotes, and most importantly, I will be able to place the pool exactly where I want it. Builders didn't want to go through zoning setback location adjustments that I needed. Additionally, I got the feeling builder's pushed certain equipments on their quote just because they get better deals from certain manufacturers, and not necessarily because it is best for my project. I feel comfortable dealing with contractors for the building stuff (excavation, rebar, plaster, etc), but have ZERO knowledge of the equipments.

POOL SPECS: Rather small 12.5' X 25' rectangle, with no spa. From what I've read so far, all I know is that I want a salt system and I will be using deck jets (4) was water features.

WHAT I NEED: If you were building this pool as your own from the ground up, PLEASE recommend equipments. If possible, keep in mind my size of pool so I know exactly which capacity to order and also mention briefly what purpose each equipment serves (newbie here). You can focus on the major components, as the plumbing contractor should be taking care of the very small standard plumbing fittings, etc. Also, any recommendations you may have with I welcome.

I will also be posting on other sections about other non-equipment related questions I have.

Thank you!

[PoolDoc]

1. Will the pool area be screened or not?

2. How will you use the pool (visual feature with little use vs 8 kids in the pool every AM, etc.)

3. Are you a meticulous maintainer of things (desk, car, house) or do you tend to be somewhat sloppy and erratic (like me!).

4. Will you be away from the pool for more than 2 - 3 days at a time?

5. Do you enjoy or hate cleaning & maintenance tasks (mowing, car washing, etc.)?

[Lsanc]

For general reference, check out a quick drawing I put together: http://imgur.com/WKCA2IJ

I am 30 years old, with a demanding job....so you find my answers to lean more towards the easy - self attending route - as long as I don't break the bank.

1. No screen

2. I want to use pool as both visual feature and for my two kids to play (years 1 and 3). I will have the occasion friends over, but nothing too crazy. Probably will use pool once or twice per week.

3. GREAT QUESTION, THANKS FOR BRINGING THIS UP. I am not a meticulous maintainer at all. If it were up to me I would like to have things as simple - self maintaining as possible. Notice, my budget is also limited so I need to keep VALUE in mind (best i can do for a decent price)

4. Yes, sometimes I can go a full 5-7 days without even stepping out on the patio.

5. Let's put it this way, I sold my boat because I hated washing it.

[PoolDoc]

OK.

Then generally speaking, I'd recommend the following:
+ Hayward 3/4 HP 2 speed pump running 24/7 on LOW.
+ Hayward 30" sand filter (easy to clean; very long intervals between cleaning)
+ Polaris booster pump pool cleaner.
+ Intermatic time clock for Polaris
+ Hayward / Goldline SWCG
+ white / light plaster or DiamondBrite type finish

Hayward, because (a) they honor their warranty on direct to end-user sales (Pentair does not) and (b) on the items listed, Hayward has the best, or nearly as good as the best, product. The older model Polaris 280 is very reliable and functional, and parts are available widely, plus lots of pool guys know how to work on one. You'll need a cleaner on an unscreened pool in Miami. Plaster should be light, since pools in Miami tend to overheat; dark colors can add 5 - 8 degrees!

BUT . . . you need to commit yourself to 5 minutes per day, plus 30 minutes more each week. If you can't do that, bail out now!

The pool above, in conjunction with our methods, will allow you to walk-away for 7 days for vacation, business, etc, but you cannot do this routinely. One frequent poster here has likened pool care to goldfish care: it doesn't take long, but if you simply ignore things, you end up with a stinking mess!

Do NOT get a pool unless you are really committed to the 5 min/30min plan OR unless you intend to hire a pool service. There is NO pool design that can be routinely ignored for 2 weeks!

[PoolDoc]

Once you've firmed things up, I can work with you on exact item numbers, etc.

[Lsanc]

Thanks for such a detailed response Ben! Boy, I feel like that subscription I paid was a steal! lol --- I will make sure to chip in more :)

Some quick comments / questions:

1- Most builders I spoke to were pushing a 1.5HP Variable Pump for what they said was "optimal performance and LOW power consumption". It's interesting that you are recommending 3/4HP Pump. I am happy with your suggestion, its less money...as long as it works well for my size pool. I read somewhere that 2" pipes would be best. But, wouldn't variable be better though? Or do you still recommend a 2 Speed Pumps at low 24/7? Again, excuse the dumb newbie rebuttal questions here...

2- Can you briefly describe the function of the booster pump pool cleaner?

3- I am going to instal four deckjets and two blowers (don't have a spa but have a section that I want some bubbles on for kids fun). Do you recommend I get different pumps to control jets and blowers?

Thanks

[Lsanc]

I've been looking for a 3/4 Dual Speed from Hayward so I can adjust my price costs, but all I find at 1 and 1.5Hp Hayward for dual speed.

[PoolDoc]

May have to settle for 1HP. It won't make a lot of difference, so long as you run on low.

VS pumps depend heavily on surge-sensitive and EXPENSIVE electronics. They do well in places like California, but not so well in places with lots of lightning related voltage surges, like Miami. And even in California, a VS pump won't usually last as long as a 2 speed.

A Polaris cleaner both vacuums up debris (leaf bits, dead bugs, flower petals) AND it sweeps the pool, disrupting developing or emerging algae biofilms. In Miami, with no screens, you DEFINITELY want one, if you don't want to spend 20 minutes a week vacuuming.

Bubbles, for kids? Are you sure? From what I've seen blower bubbles hold kids interest for about 5 minutes. Then it's all 'been there, seen that'!

BUT . . . blower bubbles are not pump flow dependent. Jets are. If you want spa like jets, that will require a MAJOR increase in pump size, piping complexity, and cost. All very do-able, but you are moving away from your low cost very simple system.

Again, spas (and spa like functions) are -- from what I've seen over the years -- interesting to kids only for a brief initial period. I've only seen continued interest in spas in adults . . . and teenagers 'on the make'.

I've seen motel spas jam-packed with with young teens at regional swim meets, but that's a bit different: 1 part "It's NEW to me", 1 part "I'm really sore from swimming that 400 IM", and 1 part "Can I squeeze in next to Suzy -- she's not going to be fast much longer if those things keep growing, but I sure do like how they look!".

[Lsanc]

I may not have described well about the jets thing. No, I don't mean those jets. I mean the ones you put on the deck...like mini water features. All they do is throw a small splash of water up into the air and into the pool for the kids to play in.

As as the blower goes, I have a little 7' seating bench on the deep end of the pool. One of the contractors thought it would be cool to have a couple of blowers there kinda for back massage, etc. I am not sure if I will do it or not but was curious how odd of a thing this in on an actual pool - not a spa.

I will definitely get the pool cleaner - I just didn't know what the booster was for - but now I know.

Regarding the VS pump...I never thought it would be such a nuisance. I was mostly inclined in that director for the electricity savings.

[PoolDoc]

Builders almost always think it's "cool" when the property owner spends more money. Just keep in mind that many builders don't even like pools, or have one themselves!

There are situations where a VS pump is a good choice -- but a small simple IG pool in Miami is not one of those. And the additional savings from a VS pump, compared to a well-chosen 2 speed is far too small to justify the $500 price difference, much less the $200 for a surge protector and the reduced service life!

[Lsanc]

Got it. I'm sold on the 2 speed then. With respect to pricing, my research led me to some $700 2 speed pumps. Am I looking correctly? When you have a chance, doesn't have to be now, please see if you can share actual models of the pump you recommend.

[PoolDoc]

Here's an equipment list for you. Please note that the Pentair item will not have much of a warranty, if you buy it. Also, I'd STRONGLY recommend that you not buy and store ANYTHING. If you buy directly from Amazon, you have a 30-day return window (sometimes, 60 days), which is EASY. After that, you have to deal with manufacturer warranty policies, which is usually HARD. For the same reason, on bigger items always try to buy directly from Amazon, rather than 3rd party sellers, even if they are a bit cheaper.

Take a look, and tell me what you think.

Pump, SWCG, controller:

Hayward SP2607X102S Super 1-Horsepower Max Rated Dual Speed Pool Pump (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00212EI58/scouscho-20)
Hayward AQR15 Goldline AquaRite Electronic Salt Pool Chlorinator Control Box w/ 40000-Gallon Cell (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002WKJ5ES/scouscho-20)
Intermatic PE653RC Wireless Control System for Variable Speed and Two-Speed Pumps (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0042D4RQ4/scouscho-20)

Pool Vacuum:

Polaris Vac-Sweep 280 Pressure Side Pool Cleaner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002HRET6A/scouscho-20)
Zodiac K14 Sand and Silt Bag Replacement (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006ZM4KS/scouscho-20)

Filter system:

Hayward S310S Pro-Series 30-Inch Side-Mount Pool Sand Filter (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002689HHQ/scouscho-20)
Hayward SP0710X62 Pro-Series Vari-Flo Replacement 1-1/2-Inch Control Valve Assembly with Gauge (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002EL3ZDC/scouscho-20)

--OR--

Hayward S244S Pro-Series 24-Inch Side-Mount 1-1/2-Inch Vari-Flo Valve Pool Filter (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000P5C602/scouscho-20)

Possible features:

Pentair 640122 IntelliBrite 5g Color Spa Light, 100-Feet, 120-Volt (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B005UB9GHC/scouscho-20)
Zodiac 1203003 Sheer Descent Waterfall with 6-Inch White Extended Lip (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004VU8HL4/scouscho-20)
Zodiac Sheer Descent manual (http://www.zodiacpoolsystems.com/~/media/Zodiac/Global/Downloads/H/H0347100)

[Lsanc]

I just wrote a long reply but it didn't post...let me do this again:

Questions:

1) I read that Hayward pump needs 1.5" intake and outlet pipe. Is that good? I was planning in running all plumbing 2". Should I just use a reducer? I was under the impression 2" was the way to go.

2) sand filter size? Price diff between 30 and 24 is small. Should I just go for the biggest?

3) color changing led pool light...yay or nay?

[PoolDoc]

Piping hydraulics and their interaction with the pump are somewhat complex. In general, you won't hurt yourself with 2" pipe . . . but ironically, if you keep your system simple enough, some special design elements may be needed. Contrary to what most people think, pumps overload on high flow, not high pressure.

Look through the equipment list above and the associated costs. They include a link to a Pentair LED light . . . but I'm not ready to recommend those. LED lights *should* last a long time, but Amazon reviews, and reports here, suggest that far too frequently, they fail after a short time. I need to find out why. It may be voltage surges.

Look at the 'Sheer Descent' too. That's an attractive feature option for a small pool, but it MUST be on a timer: running a waterfall more than a few hours per day will screw up your chemistry, because of the constant aeration. The Intermatic timer listed will allow you to run the pump HIGH/LOW/OFF, co-ordinate with the Polaris ON/OFF, and operate a small water feature, like the Sheer Descent (ON, when the pump is on HIGH). However the wiring is too complex for most non-industrial electricians, and must be drawn out in advance for them. Also, use of a complex timer (with electronics) MANDATES installation of high-grade surge protection.

The starting place for you is to assess the pool layout, and what features are important to you . . . and how much budget room is left over, once you have the complete shell and inground plumbing. Once you've done that, you can look at final equipment and feature selection.

Let me remind you again: Pentair equipment is NOT an option if (a) you buy the equipment yourself and (b) the warranty matters.

[Lsanc]

Thanks Ben. Just sent you a PM via gmail.

[Watermom]

A bigger filter is always better.

[BigDave]

A bigger filter is always better.+1!

[mas985]

Another cleaner you might consider is ThePoolCleaner. Now owned by Hayward. It doesn't require a booster so it is more energy efficient. Based upon reviews, it cleans just as well if not better than the Polaris. I have the suction side version and it has been a great performer.

www.thepoolcleaner.com

Also, the MaxFlo XL is another good Hayward pump and the 1 HP uses about 20% less energy than the 1 HP SuperPump.

[PoolDoc]

@ Mark: I'm not seeing the good reviews here, on the pressure side models. Did you see them elsewhere?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KSMVL6W/
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004KSRJZC/


@ Lsanc: I couldn't find 2 speed models of the MaxFlo on Amazon, though I did see them on other sites. I'm pretty sure that Mark is not claiming that a single speed MaxFlo would out-perform a 2 speed SuperPump.

Amazon does ship a fairly inexpensive VS Maxflo (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00C76UUK0/scouscho-20/). It would be a good option, if you coupled it with the Intermatic PS3000 Pool Surge Protector (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00I506Z3S/scouscho-20/).

[mas985]

There are not many reviews on Amazon and typically only those that dislike something will post a review so I wouldn't go by that. Also, only one of the reviews (a good one) was verified. Plus if you look at the SuperPump reviews, both are bad and we know that to be a good pump.

The reviews I am talking about are directly from owners on TFP. It is a very popular cleaner and I don't think there has ever been a negative review. The designer of the cleaner originally came from Hayward, created his own company and then Hayward bought it.

Here are just a few reviews:

https://www.google.com/search?sitesearch=www.troublefreepool.com&q=ThePoolCleaner+review&submit.x=0&submit.y=0&tbs=li:1&gws_rd=ssl


Some on this forum too although most are from me:

https://www.google.com/search?sitesearch=www.poolforum.com&q=ThePoolCleaner+review&submit.x=0&submit.y=0&tbs=li:1&gws_rd=ssl


The MaxFlo I was talking about is the SP2307X102 which is a two speed.

[Watermom]

I also have a suction-side model of The Pool Cleaner and am quite happy with it.

[PoolDoc]

Ok.

@Lsanc: I'm going to hijack the thread here, a bit, but I think it's relevant to you as well, so I hope you won't mind. If you do, email me, and I'll spin this off in to a separate thread.

@everybody else:

I've never loved suction side cleaners for 3 main reasons:

1. They usually hijack a skimmer, and at least in the East, that's a problem. Skimmers remove stuff that's still floating -- which is the BEST time to get it out of the pool. Cleaners remove stuff from the bottom, after the skimmer missed it. Using a suction side cleaner, at least in the Chattanooga area, tends to mean that all the thunderstorm debris that would otherwise go to the skimmer, instead ends up on the pool bottom.

2. They don't sweep the pool. I've never seen mustard algae in a pool that was (a) chlorinated at all and (b) had a working Polaris 180 / 280. The sweep tail disturbs biofilm development on the entire pool bottom and on much of the sides. Not all pools have problems with mustard algae, but when it does occur it's a true PITA. We don't know yet why some pools are prone to it and others are not, and we don't have a really good way to deal with it. In my mind, eliminating mustard algae from the menu of pool problems is a VERY good thing.

3. They don't circulate the water. Pressure cleaners represent a 2nd or 3rd pool return. When coupled with an inline feeder, an SWCG or skimmer tabs, using a cleaner means that EVERY part of the pool gets hit with chlorinated water at least one a day. Most pools have circulation issues and dead spots. When helping someone like Lsanc, I can't prevent those unless (a) I design the pool, (b) am onsite during plumbing & construction to enforce the design, and (c) service the pool periodically to make sure the eyeballs or other return devices haven't bee messed with to screw up circulation and create a dead spot. This isn't a big problem on round AG pools, but can be a huge problem on free-form concrete pools ESPECIALLY if they also have a textured finish (plaster!) with some rough spots (typical!).

I hate the infloor cleaning systems because (a) they tend to break irreparably after a few years and (b) they are HUGE energy hogs. But they offer one major advantage: infloor returns. Properly designed infloor returns can allow a pool to go from cloudy to clean in 1/2 the time otherwise, because of improved mixing characteristics and because they sweep the pool bottom with chlorinated water. Using a pressure side cleaner offers 1/2 of the benefits of infloor returns AND sweeps the pool.


Consequently, I've always viewed suction side cleaners as a 'better than nothing" option, for someone who's pool was already built.

Comments?

[mas985]

First, I wasn't suggesting that Lsanc go with a suction cleaner. ThePoolCleaner comes in both versions and they are actually based on similar designs. The pressure side just has the extras for propulsion. My only point was that ThePoolCleaner has had many fans and I think it to be a very good cleaner, suction or pressure.

Next on to your comments

1) I agree. But I have a separate suction port as well as two skimmers so this is not an issue with me. Also, I think most IG pools built today will have a separate cleaner port (pressure or suction) so I don't think this is relevant to new builds. But I also agree that even with a separate suction port, the suction in the skimmers is still reduced some because flow has to be redirected.

2) If you are talking about the tail stirring up the debris, I wouldn't call it real sweeping. As far as I know, there is no brush involved and if you watch the tail, it hardly ever touches the pool surface. But I think this could actually be a downside for small debris that gets suspended in the water because then you are dependent on the pool filter to remove it which might take extra run time. If you really want a cleaner that truly sweeps the floor and walls, then a robotic is probably the best choice.

3) I see your point on the return of chlorinated water but with a separate port, a suction cleaner most certainly adds circulation. It is returning water to the pump in addition to the other suction ports and it does it over the entire pool bottom. But not all pools have dedicated pressure side cleaner ports either and must rely on a return so from that perspective, it is no different.

Overall, I think for most pools, between the two, a pressure side is the best choice so I don't disagree with that and who knows, I might go that route myself someday. ;)

But either way, given the cost of energy, especially in CA, I don't think there is a good enough reason to put in a cleaner with a booster pump. There are other options in pressure side cleaners.

Also, I totally agree with you on in-floors.