Pump Woes

[NullQwerty]

Hi folks,

At the beginning of the season, my pump wouldn't start....it just hummed when you turned it on. I made a post about it here: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=1680

I opened it up, twisted the impeller which apparently was stuck, and all was fine.

Things have been good since then, but due to a DE filter that built up pressure quickly, I rarely had the pump on longer than 2 hours. Now that pool filter is working well, I attempted to leave my pump on for 24 hours straight. After 12 hours, all was good, but after 24, when I got home from work, I found my pump wasn't on and wouldn't turn on. No hum, no nothing.

I unplugged it for about a half hour and tried again. Now it would hum, but wouldn't pump. I couldn't twist the impeller, so I opened it up and got the impeller to spin, but with a good deal of resistance still present. I put it back together, but it still wouldn't pump (just hummed) and after 5-10 seconds it shut itself off and stopped humming. Again had to wait a 1/2 hour before it would at least start and hum.

So I took it apart again and this as far as I got it (see attached pics). I stopped at those 2 rusted screws. I'm afraid I might strip them as they are tight and not in the best of shape. The impeller does spin by hand but has a lot of resistance. Should I do my best to dissamble this thing further? In my other post the user Waste mentioned attempting to spin the shaft with a wrench near a white plastic triangle, but I haven't come across that triangle yet. Is it beneath the plate with the 2 screws?

Do I need to replace this motor or is salvageable? What went wrong here? Was it the DE?

Thanks

[CarlD]

If you power up the motor with the whole pump assembly removed, does it THEN spin? (with a clamp-on meter check the amperage draw--should be less than rated because it has no load). If so, it's the bearing in the pump, which is what it sounds like.

But it's possible the motor was damaged--if it doesn't run properly when powered up without the pump, then I'd consider replacing it all. Seems to me, if the motor is bad but the pump is OK, replace the motor. If the pump needs work but the motor's ok, fix the pump. But if both are shot, IMHO, I'd go for new.

[waste]

Good morning all. Null, thanks for the pics, it makes advising you a lot easier! I'd say that Carl is right on the money, on motors with that much visible oxidation usually the bearings are shot. When the motor runs, is it a lot louder than it used to be? If so it's either the bearings (most likely) or the brushes. If you have a small electric motor repair shop in town you can try to have them fix it, but only if the will give you a warantee (sometimes a newly fixed motor will die again within a month), if not you are probably better off replacing the motor.
From the pics, I'm trying to tell if your impeller is broken, looks like the stem has snapped off (I can't recall a super pump that has a flat backed impeller, though the northstars do). Before you go to put the pump back together, purchase a new shaft seal assembly (SP1600Z2) and housing gasket (SP1600T) and use the new ones, these things don't like being taken apart and will often fail on reintallation - don't forget to lube them with silicone or teflon based lube. The rest of the parts look good, even the diffuser gasket, sorry that this won't be cheep, but after it's done you'll have a lot less headaches (I'm thinking that this will cost ~ $250 for the motor and the seal assy and gasket). Good luck, if you need any help, just give a whistle.

[Poconos]

Just to set the record straight, there are no brushes in these motors. Brushes are used in DC or AC/DC motors with a commutator. However there is a centrifugal switch in the back end of these motors but that doesn't seem to be the problem since the shaft is seized, or at least tight. That motor looks pretty beat and in that condition, with the corrosion around the cord entry too, I'd wonder what the condition is of the switch and centrifugal assembly which is in the rear under the back cover. I'd go for a new pump. Your time is worth a lot too and you could fuss with this thing and still not have a reliable unit.
Al

[NullQwerty]

Thanks everyone

I tried plugging in just the motor without the pump. The shaft did not spin (but it did hum again). I unplugged it and tried one more time to confirm. Same thing although this time I did hear a grind/grumbling noise that lasted for a second or so.

As far as how loud it was when it was running, it's hard to say because I had nothing to compare it to. First time pool owner (just bought the house). However, I found it to be loud.

You guys called the white powder oxidation, and you're probably right, but it had crossed my mind that it might be DE. Possible?

So, I guess the conseses seems to be that I should just replace it. The motor itself I found for $180. The whole pump I found for $280. Being that it was suggested to replace some other parts too, I may just buy a whole new unit and save myself some headaches.

So, my only real question is, what happened here? Did this just get old and was time for relacement or was this used improperly, or maintained improperly? I just want to know so that it doesn't happen to my new one either.

Thanks a ton guys!

[waste]

Null, as you are still on the forum, I guess I caught you before you went to the store. My $ quote was based on what our store would charge ($240 for the motor, $15 for the seal and $4-5 for the housing gasket). You are getting much better prices wherever you're going, a new pump would be over $400 from us. That said, save yourself some hastle and get the whole pump, I was trying to save you some $, but for $280 the new pump makes sense.
Al, thanks for the education, I've only seen the inside of the motor once (~1990) and was told that there were brushes in them - sorry for disseminating BS :(
As to a cause for the failure, poor maintenance. A lot of folks keep all their pool stuff together for the winter, pump, filter, skimmer baskets, etc as well as thier chems - including tri chlor tabs. As I said before, even tightly sealed cl will vent off and oxidize all metals in the area - add a compromised shaft seal (with the often acidic water from using tri chlor) ... and it's rust city!


Good luck with the new pump, you probably won't need it but, if any advice is required to get the new one in, just ask - that's why we're here :)

[CarlD]

OK,
Your motor is plastered--I seriously doubt that's DE--looks like corrosion to me.

You'll need parts to get the pump back together, and then either need a new motor (doesn't have to be Hayward) or a repair job. Plus there's the time element where your pool has no filtering.

Sounds like an IDEAL opportunity to upgrade. That doesn't mean a more powerful pump--it means a pump that is quieter, more energy efficient, and maybe 2 speeds (once you have a 2 spd pump you NEVER want a single speed again!). You may even be able to use a LOWER HP pump and get the same performance.

[NullQwerty]

Thx everyone. Waste I did get your message before heading out. Thx for the advice!

Sorry CarlD...Headed to the store before getting your message unfortunately so I hadn't even considered a dual speed or even any other pump. Just bought the same one as I had before. It's the Hayward Super Pump 1.5 HP. Before I open it, are you thinking I should return it and get something else instead? Paid $297 with tax. I had just assumed it was a decent pump since I had read about so many people owning them. I obviously prefer not returning it but if you think I made a mistake here, then I would.

[duraleigh]

How many gallons in your pool and can you see a gpm rating on the filter? (or find that rating on a web site)

Those two things best determine the size of your pump.

[NullQwerty]

It's a 36 X 18 foot inground vinyl. Deep end is 8 feet and shallow is 2 or 3. So, my guess is about 24,000 gallons. The pump is the Hayward EC-65 which is 67 gpm.

Edit: 67 gpm was specs from the internet. The filter itself says Flow range is 35-65 gpm

[duraleigh]

If your filter is rated for AT LEAST that many gpm's, the pump size is fine.

[NullQwerty]

D'oh!!! My pool documentation from when I purchased the home was wrong. The previous owner had written down that I had 1.5 HP pump, and I guess I never doublechecked. I just noticed that my previous pump is a 3/4.

So, I called up 2 pool stores but both said that I want either a 1 or a 1.5.

What do you guys think? Did I buy the wrong size pump (1.5 hp), or will I be fine with it?

Also just to mention, the pool has 2 return jets (using a multi-valve port set to 1/2) and 1 skimmer. The return and suction lines are 1.5" thick.

[NullQwerty]

If your filter is rated for AT LEAST that many gpm's, the pump size is fine.

Got your message after I wrote that last one. Ok, so the previous pump that was used was too small then?

The filter actually says the flow range is 35 to 65 GPM

[duraleigh]

Let's get back on the same page.

Your pump gpm should be LESS than your filter gpm. IMHO, your new pump is too big.

[NullQwerty]

Thanks for the help! Went and exchanged it for a 1 HP Super Pump. They didn't sell any dual speeds or I would have checked those out.

Thanks again everyone!

[NullQwerty]

Just to finalize this thread, I installed the new pump tonight and while I was doing that installed a Union and Ball Valve to make removing the pump at the end of the season easier.

The new 1 HP pump is great and extremely quiet. Apparently my old pump was extremely loud, but I just didn't know it. Having never heard how loud or quiet it was supposed to be, I was clueless. I now know though that the old one was squeeling like crazy. It was probably my sign that the pump was about to die.

All is great now though. The PoolForum and you guys pulled through for me one more time. Thanks!