Re-occurring ZOMBIE Algae...

[Waldog]

LOL :D

But seriously... Here's what I have
18x48 Summer Escapes with Intex 2650 Sand Filter currently using the "TFP Method".
Came over here for help as it seems there are some personality conflicts and no one has responded. :/

Anyways, Hopefully there are more like minded folks here is all I can say.

I'm calling it ZOMBIE ALGAE because it's keeps coming back to life!!!

Put the pool up Memorial day weekend, filled from water truck as we are on a well.
Started using the TFP / BBB Method and all has been good... until... July 4th weekend.

Contracted the dastardly algae bloom after the July 4th weekend. SLAMMED / SHOCKED (whatever you want to call it) and tested afterward had "0" cc's at the end.

I've been using Tandil 64OZ 8.25% bleach from Aldi and my CYA has been 50-60.

All was well for a couple weeks. Fast forward to LAST WEEKEND.

FC LEVEL was 12 when I checked it Sunday morning. Went to the store. Came home a few hours later, and the bottom of the pool was covered in ALGAE. UGH.

Ran tests, started SLAMMING / SHOCKING. Got FC up to 24.
Next morning (Monday) Algae is back! re-tested FC 12, added more bleach.
Went through the cycle til Wed, and CC got to .5 stopped SLAM/SHOCK all looked good.

Came home yesterday all was good. Did some yard work, and went to add some bleach for my "daily dose" and guess who's back!? ZOMBIE ALGAE.

This whole time my FC has not dropped below 12!!!! This is crazy!!! I'm starting to wonder if someone has stock in bleach... LOL

I am not sure what else to do... other than add BORATES. I posed this question elsewhere and I was told not to do it until my SLAM was done. I fail to see HOW that would be relevant, or cause issues.

If borating will slow the NEW algae why not? I have calculated out what I need for my pool and it's roughly 5 boxes of mule team and 1.5 gallons of MA.

Currently my TA is 140... that's a problem... I understand I need to lower it before adding the borates...

I have "safe" MA from Ace Hardware. Is this OK to use for borating? No one seems to want to or be able to ask my question elsewhere.

I do not understand where the algae is coming from. I have removed my steps. I threw all the pool toys in and have been flipping them to coat them in FC... I did not have this problem until after July 4th weekend. BTW, I have been brushing the bottom and sides before and after bleach additions.

We have had CONSIDERABLE amounts of rain here in Florida the past 6 weeks, and I've been using it to my advantage to backwash. My rain gauge has been emptied 3 times at almost 5" full, so we've had close to 12-15" of rain.

I've read people SWEAR that rain does not cause issues but I am not sure what else to think.

Also, my PH has been steady at 7.5, and my last test was 7.2. How can this be if my TA is at 140?

I suppose I need to use the MA I have to lower my TA, and I will need more MA for borating.

So my questions are:
Am I doing something wrong? Does algae come back like this? It's not an all out infestation, but it's just wisps of it on the bottom of the pool

Can I borate and will that help me get a leg up on this? Or is there a logical reason to wait until I clear the pool? (assuming I will be able to)

Am I dealing with mustard algae? As I understand it, borates will not help with mustard algae....

BTW, I have a TF-100 test kit. And I have been running my pump non stop basically since the 4th to keep the pool clear and circulating because this has been ongoing.

Any help or advice you can provide would be great. I would like to make this a lot easier to maintain, but at this point I have went through 4 cases of bleach in two weeks and this does not seem cost effective for what is not even a full out algae bloom!!!

Please help! :(

Oh and my only other theory is that my bleach is "weak" old...?

Thanks!

[Watermom]

Your last sentence is one of the first things that came to my mind ------ is the bleach from Aldi old and has lost its potency? Maybe use bleach from Walmart. The turnover rate there will be much higher I would think and thus fresher.

I'm going to ask Ben to jump in here and offer his advice to you. Sit tight.

[Waldog]

Thanks WaterMom!!! :)

My better half should be picking up some Wal-Mart bleach and Borax this afternoon on her way home so we'll see if that helps.

I feel that adding borax either now, or after this is resolved can only help and the cost is not significant for my size pool.

We live in the country and I have enough chores and yard work I need the pool as low maintenance as possible. :)

And just to be clear, the algae I am experiencing is wispy and the last occurrences have been light per say. The first time it was covering almost the entire bottom of the pool but the water has been clear.

I also have been brushing before bleach and after like crazy.

Also, please feel free to move this to the Algae section! Sorry I posted in the wrong area I just realized...

[PoolDoc]

Interesting, on all sorts of levels. I hadn't heard that TFP was trying to get away from "BBB Method", though I know it irritates some of them that I originated almost all of the ideas behind "BBB". (Chem_Geek did the analysis that explained EXACTLY how those methods worked.) It's kinda funny, really.

Anyhow:

1. Your TA is not a problem, unless you are using a heater or a SWCG. Not sure why they'd tell you otherwise.

2. The ONLY reason not to add borates while your chlorine level is high, is that you may not be able to test pH levels accurately. I'm not sure if Dave's version of my old PS-233 kit is still using Taylor's phenol red blend. If it is, you can test pH levels up to FC=10 ppm. Above that, you need to do a 50:50 dilution with DISTILLED water (available in gallons from Walmart -- distilled, not 'bottled', 'spring', 'artesian', etc.). IF you use distilled, it won't affect the pH much, but will reduce chlorine levels by 1/2.

3. I doubt borates will help much, but they surely won't hurt, so go ahead.

4. For reasons unknown to me (and Chem_Geek), a small percentage of pools are highly susceptible to mustard algae. (It might be proximity to fresh ground water, like rivers and ponds. The two commercial pools I've dealt with, that had this issue, were close to a river.)

5. The ONLY side-effect free method I know of, of helping with mustard algae is very low phosphate levels. I understand that TFP is fairly rabid against using phosphate removers. They ARE rather a pain to use, at first, and the test kits (even Taylors) aren't great. But if you learn to maintain consistently low phosphate, doing so WILL make it easier to kill resistant algae, and will generally make your pool less susceptible to algae. I'm personally using them with good effect on a large 200,000 commercial pool that has ALWAYS --for 25+ years -- been prone to mustard algae.

---------- GOT TO RUN - WILL CONTINUE LATER -------------

[BigDave]

I have "safe" MA from Ace Hardware. Is this OK to use for borating? I don't know what that is, do you? I don't put anything unknown into my family's pool.

Fresh bleach or not, to shock a pool with 60ppm CYA the FC must be kept above 20 until it loses less than 1ppm FC overnight and CC <= 0.5ppm.

Mustard algae is often greenish yellow to brownish yellow and it seems to prefer the shaded side of the pool and aggregate in seams and small pits in floor. It often disperses easily with a brush or even a wipe of a hand. Mustard algae takes much higher FC levels to kill.

Do you think maybe it's just dirt that's too fine for your filter or never gets in the filter? Did the trouble start after a period of heavy usage - July 4 pool party?

[Waldog]

I don't know what that is, do you? I don't put anything unknown into my family's pool.

Fresh bleach or not, to shock a pool with 60ppm CYA the FC must be kept above 20 until it loses less than 1ppm FC overnight and CC <= 0.5ppm.

Mustard algae is often greenish yellow to brownish yellow and it seems to prefer the shaded side of the pool and aggregate in seams and small pits in floor. It often disperses easily with a brush or even a wipe of a hand. Mustard algae takes much higher FC levels to kill.

Do you think maybe it's just dirt that's too fine for your filter or never gets in the filter? Did the trouble start after a period of heavy usage - July 4 pool party?

I need to take a photo... I will try if it returns... I have a water proof camera and I just thought of that.

But I can describe it... It is mostly green, and it is thin wispy following the bottom pattern of my pool. (LOL) My pool liner is not wrinkled but it's imperfect due to what's underneath. I put it on solid ground, no sand.

The safe MA I refer to is what they call SAFE muriatic acid. It's supposedly more safe than regular MA and does not smoke when poured into the pool. Does that help? :) Ace Hardware sells it.

When I brush I see small clouds of green, and again I say we are not talking a lot of algae. I am certain it's algae and not sediment as I am really good about vacuuming. I usually get in and create a whirlpool and suck up all the debris with the hose as it's easier. :)

[Waldog]

Interesting, on all sorts of levels. I hadn't heard that TFP was trying to get away from "BBB Method", though I know it irritates some of them that I originated almost all of the ideas behind "BBB". (Chem_Geek did the analysis that explained EXACTLY how those methods worked.) It's kinda funny, really.


I thought so too. They don't describe it as BBB anymore. It's TFP method and shocking is not shocking, it's SLAMMING. And believe me... they'll will tell you if you are "DOING IT WRONG". I have the de-merits to prove it. LOL :D

Yeah there are some differences for sure. Doesn't seem to be as important to use Borax to them which is puzzling after what I've read because it sure as heck can't hurt?

At any rate, I am about 5-8 miles as the crow flies from a river called the "St. Johns". My pool is near trees, and specifically very close to a tangerine tree which is NOT in season and is losing fruit. I did cut it back away from the pool. This is the best location I could find on my property without putting it in the front yard (we have two acres) and without putting it in the way of my garage access.

Could the phosphates come from rain water? Our water came via truck as our well is high in iron, and I did not want to deal with that situation.

I'm willing to do the borates because of the other benefits (sparklypoolitus) and it may help prevent other forms of algae as well as being cheap.

I gotta run too... be back later. :)

[Waldog]

Just got home and no algae on the pool floor. Tested my FC and PH with OTO test and this is the first time that it's turned ORANGE. Like NEON orange!!!

I will do the FAS-DPD test and see what results I get with that.

PH is reading 7.5 but it always has been so I don't know if that's false because chlorine is so high.

Better half is on way to Wal-Mart shortly to get bleach and borax.

I'll be back shortly with the FAS-DPD results and CC test.

:)

Ok BACK!!! Just tested:

CYA: 40
FC: 27.5
CC: 0

Now... how in the world did the pool have some algae on the floor this morning?

I dumped a 64OZ bleach in this AM before I left for work because I was afraid I would come home to algae again... there's no way that one bottle put me up that high unless my FC was already pretty good. Yeah, I didn't test, was in a hurry so I winged it.

I guess I should do an OCLT tonight/tomorrow.

Going to vacuum up the pool now and possible swim. The h-e-double-hockey-sticks with it. LOL :D

Side note: I am seriously thinking my Aldi bleach was weak and quite possible that last bottle was not... although it was in a case I've been using... I dunno I have never seen my OTO turn orange so that's why I say that.

[Watermom]

I would go ahead and brush the pool while the chlorine is high even though you see no algae.

And, you'll probably want to wear old swimsuits if you swim with the chlorine that high. It won't hurt you but will likely fade swimsuits.

.

[JimK]

If I understand correctly, the "safe" MA at Ace is a diluted version of regular MA. If so, your dosing will be different. Personally, not knowing if there is anything else in the "safe" MA that you might not want in your pool, I wouldn't use it.

[PoolDoc]

Some 'safe' MA's have detergents or other addititives, making them NOT-safe for your pool.

[Waldog]

Thanks everyone! I vacuumed the pool and while doing that I noticed some more algae... not much. I brushed like crazy and then went swimming later. :D

My birthday suit doesn't fade! LOL :D

Kept an eye on it all weekend, and so far the algae did not return. I will inspect closer again when I get home this afternoon, but maybe I have beat it back for now.

I need to take a look at the MA that I bought and see what is "exactly" in it. I will post here and see if it needs to get returned for regular MA.

I'd like to borate the pool ASAP. Any suggestions on how much MA to add to start bringing my TA down before doing so? Or as you said PoolDoc I really don't need to worry about it?

[PoolDoc]

I need to take a look at the MA that I bought and see what is "exactly" in it. I will post here and see if it needs to get returned for regular MA.

I'd like to borate the pool ASAP. Any suggestions on how much MA to add to start bringing my TA down before doing so? Or as you said PoolDoc I really don't need to worry about it?

Re MA: check the MSDS; it's likely that will reveal whether there are problematic additives. However, the presence of even the slightest 'sudsing' or soapy bubbles in the MA solution is sufficient reason to keep it away -- far away -- from your pool.

I wouldn't worry about the TA. Just add the borax, and then add MA till your pH is normal. If you have a K2006, you can use the acid demand test to quantify how much MA is needed at any given point. However, I think the "poolcalculator.com" will also give you a useful indication. I would STRONGLY recommend that you (a) use PLAIN 31% MA and (b) never use more than 1/2 of the dose you think you need to fully correct. You can always add more later.

If you haven't already, do read the MA safe handling guide => http://pool9.net/ma/

[Waldog]

Here's the MA that I have... http://www.certol.com/AcidMagicHome.aspx

I'm still looking for what's in it... Should I exchange this for the real stuff?

http://www.certol.com/pdf/Industrial%20MSDS/ACID%20Magic%20SDS.pdf
Shows only - The User Friendly Muriatic Acid!™*
Chemical Name CAS No. Weight-%
Hydrochloric Acid 7647-01-0 Proprietary
The specific chemical identity of this composition is being withheld as a trade secret.

[PoolDoc]

Should I exchange this for the real stuff?

Yes. Mystery ingredients can cause very, very real problems with your pool.

[Waldog]

Yes. Mystery ingredients can cause very, very real problems with your pool.

Oh boy... guess I'll have to exchange it for the real deal... I need another gallon anyways for my borate operations. LOL

So this morning... the bane of my existence has returned. I had small amounts of algae on the bottom of the pool near the walls. Basically where the seam is on these intex type pools...

I'm really at a loss here... FC level is still coming down from 30. I'm at 12. I have still kept adding bleach just to be on the safe side. Other folks are telling me that it may not be algae that it could be pollen.

We have had lots of rain, maybe it's washing off the surrounding trees and collecting on the bottom, I do not know.

I had to drain off waste during a bad rain the other night, so I'm betting my CYA is down to around 30 now. I am tempted to get some powdered shock and see if that will help?

Otherwise, I'm just going to keep my FC high, and keep brushing...

[PoolDoc]

I am tempted to get some powdered shock and see if that will help?

You need to stop thinking of pool chemicals by their brands or descriptions, and start thinking of them by the chemical they contain. "Powdered shock" could be an excellent choice OR a terrible one, depending on which CHEMICAL is present in the "powdered shock" you have in mind. Neither we, nor you, know whether that product is good or bad for your pool, till we know what's actually in it.

Pool store operators and especially, pool chemical makers, really, really want to prevent you from getting involved "in the complications of pool chemicals and their effects": they want you to let them "make it easy for you". And honestly, if they actually did just that, PoolForum would be unnecessary. The problem is, they don't. The reasons are complex and pool store operators are themselves somewhat the victims of misinformation and misdirection from the pool chemical makers. But the bottom line is, the primary purpose of pool brands is to (a) sell you cheap chemicals expensively and (b) sell you rarely needed but high margin chemicals routinely.

Back to your pool: dusty debris on the bottom could be any of the following: mustard algae, dead algae (either green or mustard), sand from your filter, blown in or tracked in dirt or pollen.

You can probably rule some of these in or out yourself:
+ No dusty wind? Then, no blown-in dirt.
+ No pollen on flat surfaces outside? Then, no bulk pollen in pool.
+ No body tracking in dirt or sand? Then, no tracked-in dirt.
+ No yellowish-green somewhat uniform coating on your pool walls and floor, prior to accumulations of powder? Then, the dust is is not dead mustard algae.
+ Dirt does not feel gritty between your fingers, when you pinch a bit of it up? Then it's not sand.

[Waldog]

Is there a recommended dry shock? Just curious. I would never visit the pool store for chems BTW. I would use Walmart because at least there I won't be bothered by pesky pool store sales people. LOL :D Sorry, I didn't mean to make you fret. I'm just frustrated. I will most likely pickup MORE walmart bleach since it does seem to be more potent than the Aldi bleach I was previously using and bring the pool up to SHOCK level... again...

To answer your questions:
You can probably rule some of these in or out yourself:
+ No dusty wind? Then, no blown-in dirt.
Well, it's been windy, but during our torrential downpours.

+ No pollen on flat surfaces outside? Then, no bulk pollen in pool.
Noticeable pollen was early this spring. I have not noticed it on vehicles or other surfaces around my house. However, we have 2 acres and lots of trees. It could be wash off the trees, no?

+ No body tracking in dirt or sand? Then, no tracked-in dirt.
No one has been in the pool since Saturday night, and I had vacuumed the pool Sunday.

+ No yellowish-green somewhat uniform coating on your pool walls and floor, prior to accumulations of powder?
Then, the dust is is not dead mustard algae. - Well on the floor near the seams where the floor meets the walls.

+ Dirt does not feel gritty between your fingers, when you pinch a bit of it up? Then it's not sand
Pool is too deep for me to try that, can't lean over and grab some, but it is NOT disturbed by my skimmer pole, but is brushed away with the pool brush.

[PoolDoc]

Pool is too deep for me to try that, can't lean over and grab some, but it is NOT disturbed by my skimmer pole, but is brushed away with the pool brush.

Sounds like sand. Can someone swim down and check it?

[Waldog]

Sounds like sand. Can someone swim down and check it?

Well, I brushed this morning and it turned to a green cloud... but... what you say makes sense, and I say this because I recently changed where my return was facing. They recommend you face it to make the flow of water go clockwise assuming the skimmer is 6'oclock, but I found if I kept it this way, skimming was reduced. So I've had it facing down... which would cause anything coming back in, sand or otherwise... to be spread out to the edges of the pool floor. Make sense?

I'll check when I get home, and try to inspect the suspect more closely. LOL :D

Thanks for all your help!!!

[PoolDoc]

Woah! Stop the train!

If you brushed it, and got a green cloud, it's mustard algae. End of story! (You could ALSO have sand present.)

[Waldog]

Woah! Stop the train!

If you brushed it, and got a green cloud, it's mustard algae. End of story! (You could ALSO have sand present.)

Yeah... that's what I've been saying all along. I suspected Mustard Algae... Sand I'm not so worried about. My yard is a sand pit for the most part.

So what can I do to defeat the mustard algae... you have mentioned high phosphates as a contributor to pools that experience mustard algae.

Can I get some phosphate reducer and give it a shot, and bring my shock level to mustard level and maintain it?

Is there a magic potion I can use? Some sort of algae dance? Just keep my FC high and keep brushing and pray it eventually goes away?

A small strategically placed nuclear device maybe?

:(

[PoolDoc]

I'll help you get some phosphate remover. I'm currently using it, and it seems to work well, BUT . . .

You have to understand it's something an unrelenting process, that requires you to CONTINUOUSLY maintain a low PO4 level (< 0.125 ppm). Typically this will mean adding a small amount of PO4 remover every time you add water. It may require that you add a bit of clarifier to clear the resulting cloudiness.

You MUST understand that adding PO4 remover does NOTHING useful until you reach that 0.125 ppm threshold. If you reduce your PO4 level from 3 ppm (3,000 ppb) to 500 ppb . . . it may not help at all!

I'm trying to work this out on a 200,000 gal country club pool now. It loses about 1" of water per day, and is refilled with city water with 2 - 4 ppm PO4 levels (2,000 - 4,000 ppb), so it's necessary to add a small amount of PO4 remover at least every other day.

You'll also have to look at what chemicals you are using, and make sure you are not using anything that adds phosphates. If you have a problem with metal stains, this can be a challenge, since the effective metal chelants are based on phosphonates, and eventually release 'ortho-phosphates' (the algae-feeding kind). However, quite a few pool chemicals contain 'stealth phosphates', such as almost any product made by United Chemical (unless they've recently reformulated).

This REQUIRES that you use an accurate phosphate kit.

If you're up for this, I'd be happy to help. From what I can tell, it's pretty easy and not very expensive . . . once you work out a maintenance program for YOUR pool. In fact, I hope you do pursue this, since I'm looking for others who can test the process.

But, I'd be unfair to you if I didn't suggest a possible simpler alternative: draining and refilling! I do NOT know why some pools are prone to mustard algae. And in my local experience, draining and refilling does NOT solve the problem. But, it might for you, and then you wouldn't have to mess with one more factor (phosphate levels).

Lemme know what you want to do. Because of the kit cost, getting started with PO4 removal will cost you about $80. However, with a 5k gallon pool, you should be set not only for this year, but next season as well.

[Watermom]

5K pool? I'd drain. Just my $0.02.

[Waldog]

5K pool? I'd drain. Just my $0.02.

I can't drain... We are on a well... with high iron content... in the country. We just had the well replaced two years ago (re-drilled). I was worried about causing issues with the well again so we used a water truck and it was $300.00 in water. It wound up costing more than the pool.

I'm willing to try the phosphate remover as an experiment if it will help PoolDoc.

What else will be required? Will I need to shock the pool. Can I still borate?

I have not filled the pool with any other water other than RAIN water that has been filling the pool over the past two months. Is it possible rain water is high in phosphates?

If this was a "regular" Florida summer, and I had to deal with evaporation, I would have used the well but only for a few inches of water at a time, and ran it through a pre-filter.

PoolDoc, is there a link to where I can get the phosphate remover and kit?

[Watermom]

I agree with you. On a well with iron, don't drain.

[PoolDoc]

1. I'd be glad to have the help, BUT I don't want anyone to do it for that reason. If you want to try it, I'll help and collect info. If not, that's fine too. It was only an offer. Once I have a few more "ducks lined up", I'll probably invite participation, but I'm not at that point yet.

2. Go ahead with borates: it's fairly easy, and fairly cheap for a 5,000 gallon pool (5 boxes of borax + 1 1/4 gallons of 31% muriatic acid). That would be a useful experiment, too. The best info I have at present is that borates help with winterization and green algae, but not so much with mustard algae.

3. The kits you need are ALL linked from the testkit page: http://pool9.net/tk/

4. Phosphate remover is problematic. Most of the phosphate removers available are highly diluted and over-priced. The Kem-Tek brand I've recommended on Amazon has morphed into the Clorox brand and is now EXTREMELY diluted. The only desirable product is the Orenda PR-10000, which is not widely available except in large commercial quantities. For now, you'll have to search for it yourself. But I'm looking at some other options.

[BigDave]

I bought Kem-Tek phosphate remover yesterday on Amazon. Still in stock now. Maybe I should stock up.

[PoolDoc]

Make sure it's still the 2 ppm PO4 per 10,000 gallon, rather than the diluted 0.75 ppm/10k gal stuff. The original is a better value than all other products EXCEPT the hard to find Orenda product. The new diluted 'Clorox' blend is a very POOR value.

[BigDave]

I'll check in when it arrives tomorrow.

[Waldog]

Dang it! I should have check this thread yesterday while I was at home depot! They actually had ONE bottle of KEM-TECH phosphate remover, and it was DUSTY. I imagine it was just what I was looking for. They also had POOL-TIME brand but the packaging boasted about "water clarity" and I was like mmmmmhmmmm you've got something else in you... But, this bottle of KEM-TECH looked very good. It had the amount chart on the back, and did not boast that it contained other additives. I might swing back by there and see if they still have it. It was off on it's own away from all the flashy products. Oh and it was $12, I will check amazon for comparison.


1. I'd be glad to have the help, BUT I don't want anyone to do it for that reason. If you want to try it, I'll help and collect info. If not, that's fine too. It was only an offer. Once I have a few more "ducks lined up", I'll probably invite participation, but I'm not at that point yet.

2. Go ahead with borates: it's fairly easy, and fairly cheap for a 5,000 gallon pool (5 boxes of borax + 1 1/4 gallons of 31% muriatic acid). That would be a useful experiment, too. The best info I have at present is that borates help with winterization and green algae, but not so much with mustard algae.

3. The kits you need are ALL linked from the testkit page: http://pool9.net/tk/

4. Phosphate remover is problematic. Most of the phosphate removers available are highly diluted and over-priced. The Kem-Tek brand I've recommended on Amazon has morphed into the Clorox brand and is now EXTREMELY diluted. The only desirable product is the Orenda PR-10000, which is not widely available except in large commercial quantities. For now, you'll have to search for it yourself. But I'm looking at some other options.

[Waldog]

It was this exact bottle for $12 http://www.amazon.com/Kem-Tek-KTK-50-0001-Phosphate-Remover-Quart/dp/B0030BEI04/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1406204476&sr=8-1&keywords=kem-tek+phosphate+remover&dpPl=1

Should I have picked this up???

[chem geek]

Yes, that's the right stuff.

[BigDave]

The bottle of Kem-Tek phophate remover I just bought from Amazon is labelled the same as the two I bought in June.

[PoolDoc]

OK, good.

If you have a PO4 test kit, I'd be interested to see how much removal you see for a given dose.

[BigDave]

The data I have so far is uncomfortably soft. I have the Taylor phosphate kit.

From the initial supply bought from Amazon in June, I used about (not measured, guessed) one and a half quarts to get from > 1000ppb to 500ppb. At this point, I added 5 days worth of bleach, covered the pool and went on vacation.

Ten days later I uncovered the pool, FC 12ppm (CYA 60), some appearance of what might be dirt or might be mustard algae in the seams and corners where it usually grows. Allowed FC to come down and maintained 5.5ppm-7.5ppm FC. Added about 1/2 the remainder of the second quart.

Another ten days or so go by with several thunderstorms bringing tree debris into the pool. Definite return of mustard algae. Brush, vacuum, backflush. PO4 now at 250ppb. No makeup water for the three weeks since PO4 measured 500ppb. Added the remainder of the second quart.

So, about 8oz of the (June) Kem-Tek phosphate remover took about 250ppb out of my 7700gal pool. If my math is right, that's a whole lot more like 0.75ppm/10,000gal than 2.0ppm/10,000gal as described on the label. This is of course confounded by the storms, debris, high chlorine and time.

[PoolDoc]

OK. If you can, keep track of it.

I'm beginning to think that the ratings are 'ideal', not real. Adding lanthanum chloride to a pool can form lanthanum carbonate -- which is ALSO rather insoluble.

I believe that, over time, if the lanthanum carbonate remains IN the pool (pool floor or on filter media), it will be converted to lanthanum phosphate. But if you clean the filter before that happens, you'll end up having used a portion of your PO4 remover as an expensive and inefficient way to lower carbonate alkalinity!

[BigDave]

I let it sit on the filter for a long time (3 weeks) before backwash. I'd think that it should have finished.

A couple observations:
It took about three days to clear the cloud with each addition of phosphate remover. That's with the 27" sand filter and moving 40gpm in the sun and 10 gpm all the rest of the time. The cloud was minor, more of a dulling of the pool than a cloud. At night, I could see the beam of a bright, focused flashlight in the water.

When I added the first and second half-quart doses, the pool water smelled strongly like laundry.

After every dose the surface tension appeared to change dramatically - the water looked thick and the roil on the surface near the return was far more pronounced.

I hope to provide better info in August - the beginning of the summer has been crazy for us.

@PoolDoc: I realize this is now prety for off-topic from the original thread. Sorry. It might be a good idea to move it to the previous PO4 remover thread or make a new one to collect observations.

[PoolDoc]

3 weeks should be long enough, if anything is!

[Waldog]

HEY!!! You guys hi-jacking my thread!!!? LOL :D Just kidding, it's ok!!!

Well... that's a deep subject... LOL... seriously though... my ZOMBIE MUSTARD ALGAE is BAAAAAAAACK.... with a vengeance!!!

I've been keeping my FC level at 18, and brushing, but I missed brushing night before last and it was BACK BIG TIME!!!

So I went to Wal-Mart last night and I'm going to keep the FC high... got 9 gallons of bleach...

Any recommendations since my CYA is 40???

According to my calculations 16-18 is shock level, so what should be mustard level? I think i need to kick it up to like 25? and maintain that for 3-4 days maybe longer if possible?

I have not had a chance to hit Home Depot to pickup the chem-tek phosphate remover... it's the other way opposite of my house and Wal-Mart... but no matter, because I still don't have a test... dang test is so expensive... :(

I still have not added the borates... need more MA.... I need to get with the program! I was hoping the algae would have been at bay long enough for me to do so.

I'm going to hit this hard starting Friday!!! One way or another the borates are going in!!! LOL

Any advice for the rantings of a mad man?

[PoolDoc]

Waldog, let me caution you:

1. There's no evidence that borax will help much with mustard algae. It won't hurt, but it may not help either.

2. You are wasting time and money messing with phosphates without testing. You could lower your PO4 level from 4,000 ppb to 400 ppb . . . and accomplish NOTHING. You have to get it below 125 ppb (0.125 ppm) to accomplish anything useful.

If you really want to try it, search online for a quart of Orenda PR-10000 ($50 - 60 delivered) It's very unlikely that your pool has more that your pool has more than 10 ppm PO4, and that product will remove up to 20 ppm from YOUR pool. Clean your filter and THEN add no more than 1/2 cup. Wait at least 4 days, before cleaning your filter. Repeat this 5 more times (clean filter, add 1/2 cup, circulate for 3 days). Most likely that will work.

But you'd still be better off with a test kit.

[Waldog]

Ben,

Thanks for all the help! :) Yes, I understood what the benefits are of Borax and that it most likely would not help the mustard algae. I was looking more toward the "other" benefits; sparkly water, resistance to green algae, etc.

At any rate, the pool was looking good on late last week so I took the plunge. I added one gallon of MA to reduce my PH, and brushed to mix. Then I added the borax and brushed to mix. The next day I tested and my PH was slightly high so I added more MA, and then it was slightly LOW, so I aerated. LOL :D

My better half had ordered the Intex Krystal Clear Salt System on amazon, and it came on Friday. Picked up four 40lb bags of pool salt and added to the pool on Saturday. We swam most of the afternoon to mix up the salt, and Sunday morning I connected the system and it worked instantly.

The water was a bit cloudy after the salt, but before, it was sparkly. I imagine that might have been a result of the borax because it never was that sparkly before.

At any rate, the pool is a lot clearer this AM, and I'm running the pump 24/7 right now to keep everything mixing. I have the salt system set to run 6 hours, so I will test FC today when I get home.

I also added two pucks in a floater because I know with the salt system my CYA needs to be higher than 40 (that it is now).

So far, so good. The crazy thing is I have seen NO SIGNS of the mustard algae since I did this. So time will tell...

[PoolDoc]

Maybe borax works against the mustard algae in your pool -- after all, mustard algae is not a particular species of algae, but some sort of conglomeration, that varies from pool to pool.

The sparkly effect IS one of the often reported results of using borax.

Glad it worked so well for you; hope it continues to do so.