Phosphate testing

[Big Splash]

Algae keeps trying to come back to my pool. I'm all over it with shock levels as needed and regular cleaning. No biggie really. The water is nice and clear (knocking on wood). But, I'd like to try keeping the phosphates low in hopes of not having to use as much bleach. I ordered the Clorox phosphate remover and was looking to get the K-1106 kit. The K-1106 is pricey for just one test type. Are there any good alternatives? Is testing really required if I'm just going to dose a small amount each week? I mean, if there's no more issues (no algae), there's no need right?

I probably already know the answer here. But, I'd figured it's still worth discussion.

Thanks,
Splash

[Big Splash]

I haven't yet ordered the K -1106, but I'm going to soon. I realize that lowering the phosphates isn't gonna do diddly squat without enough FC. But, since we have lots of trees near the pool, those little green algae monsters keep popping up in usual places.

Before finding this forum, I used the PhosFree product to help clear my spring swamp. It seemed like it helped tip the balance in my favor. So, I did try using about 1/2 bottle of the Clorox product. That + a good shock looks like the trick. One issue though I found. Both the PhosFree and Clorox tend to clog up my sand filter when adding to skimmer. Possibly it's not ever really getting in the pool but does its magic in filter. IDK??? So I can't apply a larger dose without it ending up wasted in a back wash.

Latest testing
FC 10.5
pH 7.8
TA 160
CH 160
CYA 50

Thanks for all the info and help on this. My latest pool dollars has gone towards a subscription. Easy the best pool dollars ever.

Splash

[Watermom]

Thanks for the subscription! Much appreciated!

[PoolDoc]

Turns out the Clorox phosphate remover is a seriously bad deal. A quart of the Kem-Tek predecessor product was labeled as removing 2 ppm PO4 from 10K gallons; the Clorox product is virtually the same price, but only removes 0.75 ppm from 10K gallons.

That means the Clorox product is actually 267% more expensive!

[Big Splash]

Turns out the Clorox phosphate remover is a seriously bad deal. A quart of the Kem-Tek predecessor product was labeled as removing 2 ppm PO4 from 10K gallons; the Clorox product is virtually the same price, but only removes 0.75 ppm from 10K gallons.

That means the Clorox product is actually 267% more expensive!

Well now... I did notice the "Clorox" brand is actually licensed by Easy 123 Pool Care LLC (whoever they are) on this stuff. I wonder if Clorox knows they're deluding their good name..

Any good alternatives? Is PhosFree a better deal?

[PoolDoc]

No, PhosFree is also over-priced.

I'm checking, this morning. I'll update later today.

[Big Splash]

Ok thank you.

My curiosity has gotten to me. Seems to be a case of brand re-engineering going on here. ..


KIK Introduces New Clorox Brand Pool Care Products (NYSE:CLX)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=IF21U-y8G4W_8gHAmYDICQ&url=http://investors.thecloroxcompany.com/releasedetail.cfm%3FReleaseID%3D786410&cd=1&ved=0CBwQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNEJV0ilKlfo3RF4lhFoH_4XFFovVw&sig2=tOjZ-euzgo_c31RIOtXKsg

Ah the games people play :-\

[PoolDoc]

I haven't heard from them; looks like they are taking a long weekend. Can't blame them: April, May & June are killer months for pool manufacturers.

The best confirmed deal is the Orenda PR-10000 product, but you'll have to find it yourself. Vendors are spotty and in-and-out of stock. I checked whole sale prices (for myself) and just ordered a 5 gal pail @ $441 (incl local sales tax). Wholesale to me for a quart was $29.88 before tax, but I had to order a case. From what I'm seeing, that may be the wholesale price pretty much everywhere. (On some products there's a S. Florida and S. Calif price, and an everywhere else price.)

Probably anything under $50/qt + shipping is a good price. If you can buy it for under $80 delivered, it's still cheaper ($/ppm PO4 removed) than the OLD Kem-Tek product, and MUCH cheaper than the Clorox or PhosFree products.

But, it's VERY concentrated and will cloud your pool. Best to use a little, repeatedly, than a big dose at once. Use of a clarifier at the same time will help avoid lingering cloudiness.

[Big Splash]

Thanks much Ben for the reply and attention. I'm not certain the extra cost and testing is worth it to me as I know more now than before. $50 per qt. will buy lots of bleach and that mankinni I've always wanted...

On 2nd thought, I might as well stick with the extra bleach and skip the mankinni too :)

Splash

[PoolDoc]

and that mankinni I've always wanted...

S-)

.

.

S-) S-)

Around my household, I try to keep the 'kinis strictly in my wife's drawer. She's within 12 pounds of what she weighed when we married, and I'm, uh-h-h, well, NOT within 12 pounds. :o

(My sons both still wear Speedos when swimming Masters . . . but at 6' 1" or more and 180 or less, I don't think anyone is complaining. I think there's something about swimming 4,000 yards at a time that makes those things fit better ;) )

[Big Splash]

I just wanna scare the neighborhood kids when it's not Halloween lol. My wife is a saint to keep me around.

[CarlD]

Seriously, I'm wondering what the original poster thinks reducing phosphates will do to reduce chlorine usage. If you don't have algae in your pool, reducing phosphate levels should have little effect on the chlorine levels. Phosphates are algae food...but if there's no algae, there's nothing to feed.

I just don't see the mechanism.

[Big Splash]

Seriously, I'm wondering what the original poster thinks reducing phosphates will do to reduce chlorine usage. If you don't have algae in your pool, reducing phosphate levels should have little effect on the chlorine levels. Phosphates are algae food...but if there's no algae, there's nothing to feed.

I just don't see the mechanism.

I agree with you. It's not the amount of bleach used so much as the maintained level I was originally thinking of reducing. Right now and forever I'm going to have to keep my FC level at the higher end (relative to CYA) to keep the algae at bay. That's ok by me. I just wanted to explore other options. This thread is proof positive of the BBB method works best.

[CarlD]

I agree with you. It's not the amount of bleach used so much as the maintained level I was originally thinking of reducing. Right now and forever I'm going to have to keep my FC level at the higher end (relative to CYA) to keep the algae at bay. That's ok by me. I just wanted to explore other options. This thread is proof positive of the BBB method works best.

Actually, I wouldn't worry. When you maintain a higher FC level due to a higher cya, you'll probably find you add LESS chlorine to stay in the maintenance range. We actually recommend it for those who leave in steamy, sunny climates....Though these last few days in New Jersey, it's hard to imagine being in a steamier hotter place. Day before yesterday, it was 96 in the shade, and 112 in the sun. Yesterday nearly the same...and HUMID!

[Big Splash]

Yep, I'm in NJ too (Burlington County) and it's purty sticky out there.

Stay cool -@@-
Splash

[PoolDoc]

Actually, when you have pools like the country club pool I service locally, they tend to maintain low levels of algae most of the time. I don't know why that pool is so prone to mustard algae, but apart from that it has a damaged finish with many, many cracks and crannies where algae can survive regardless of chlorine level. I've been in the pool with SCUBA, when the chlorine level was VERY high, and still found live algae in areas where the tile grout had eroded. None of that algae was visible from the surface.

But, when you have a persistent algae population, it will create a persistent and higher than normal chlorine consumption. This is the pool in which I'm experimenting with PO4 removal, and the persistent higher than needed demand is one reason.

[Big Splash]

I can see the algae in my pool tends to cling along the seams of the liner in deep end. That makes it tough to brush it off. It's never gonna go away completely. So containment is the key.

Really I'm just looking to dial in what's best for my pool. Whatever it takes to keep it clean, sparkling, and open all through this my 1st season is ok by me.

Thx

[PoolDoc]

Actually, you can kill it. Monochloramine* (chlorine + ammonia + high-ish pH) will kill it. But it's such nasty stuff . . . and pools prone to algae tend to have it come back even when you do kill it.

Copper will also kill it. But then you get stains and green hair. (I've actually DELIBERATELY stained pools that had very rough porous plaster.)

Super high chlorine will kill it.

But . . . it appears that moderate levels of chlorine will kill it when phosphate levels are very low. So that's what I'm experimenting with, now.


* Products like Yellow Out and Mustard Master work this way.

[JimK]

So what's the current thinking on using phosphate removers?

I use to use one at the end of every season, but last year I stopped doing it since it seemed the message here was that they are a waste of money.

Now I see more discussion about possible benefits of removing phosphates. I'm sure my pool has phosphates since I add 6 oz of Jack's Magic Purple stuff each week to keep stains from appearing on the steps (interestingly, the bucket metals test recommended here was negative for any metals).

So, should I resume my annual phosphate treatment or is phosphate removal only recommended for "problem pools"?

For reference my pools stays clear and CL holds overnight. I keep FC 5-6ppm and CYA 70-80 (recommended CYA level for my SWCG).

[PoolDoc]

Right now, I'm working on the theory that you don't need PO4 removers, unless you need them, and that there are 2 groups that may need them:

1. Those with pools prone to recurrent mustard algae, and

2. Those taking long or repeated vacations, and who lack anyone to check on their pool every few days.

[Big Splash]

It's interesting how this thread has morphed from testing for phosphates to testing the whole need to do so in the first place. I guess the answer (for me anyway) is it doesn't seem likely the effort is worth it. I'll just keep my FC at the upper end of the best guess chart, raise the CYA to about 60 and see how it goes.

It has been worth the effort to discuss the idea here. Thanks for all the expert info.

Happy 4th all :)

Splash

[CarlD]

That's a good plan. I find the persistent algae point is inside my wedding cake stairs. Water circulation is almost non-existent there and it's impossible to get inside it to brush--but you can see inside.

[PoolDoc]

I guess the answer (for me anyway) is it doesn't seem likely the effort is worth it.
Happy 4th all :)

Thanks! You, too!

Regarding the question of whether phosphate level control is "worth it", if
(a) you don't have problems with persistent algae in spite of good chlorine levels, and
(b) you aren't having difficulties keeping your pool clear and clean during vacation or other absences,
then you probably don't have a reason to fool with it.

[donfranko]

Hi folks been a while hope everyone is well.
This thread got my interest because of the price of phosphate remover. My questions is around my Florida pool (FL Pool: 10K gal gunite, zero edge, chlorinated with 3'' pucks, cartridge filter, spill over spa). I have it serviced due to limited use and last 2 months had an extra $10 charge for phosphate remover. Looking at the prices posted here they could not be adding much or are not using a good product. Over all happy with the service provided, the pool is clean and algae free when I'm there ( but I'd prefer to maintian it myself with BBB - someday)
:(
Anyway, question is around $10 for additional service for phosphate remover. thanks

[PoolDoc]

@donfranko: I'm sorry, but if there was a question in there, I'm not sure what it was.

[CarlD]

I think he wants to know if $10 for a service to add phosphate remover is a good price or an indication they didn't use nearly enough. I think.....

[PoolDoc]

If that's it, I can't answer.

It depends on the phosphate level of his fill water.

[donfranko]

Thanks Carl & Doc. Carl had it right seemed like not enough may have been used. The water looks good and I took my test kit with me. Is there a test for phosphate in fill water?

[PoolDoc]

Yes, the Taylor kit is best. The AquaCheck test is cheaper and easier, but isn't very useful at PO4 levels above 500 (0.5 ppm). Water company samples may have 4,000 ppb (4 ppm).

You'll find the Taylor kit info toward the bottom of this page: http://pool9.net/tk/

PS. Even with the Taylor kit, you may have to dilute samples. If you do, buy a gallon of DISTILLED water from Walmart., to dilute with.

[Big Splash]

Thread update...

I raised the CYA to 60 using trichlor tabs and have kept the FC at or above 10. Downside to this approach is testing the pH (without having to dilute with distilled water as I've read). While there's no visible algae growth like before, I can still see some (brownish dust) come off the steps, sides and corners as I bush the areas where my pool cleaner doesn't get to. Not surprising considering all the nasty wind swept thunderstorms rolling through NJ in the past week. These storms caused a couple major leaf cleanup jobs for me. So, I think my problem isn't removing phosphates. It's stopping them from getting in the pool in first place. I might be better buying a chainsaw ;) Other than that, I might try adding borates.

Thanks all,
Splash

[PoolDoc]

The problem with phosphate removal is that many sources can provide sufficient phosphates for algae; it takes very, very little to be enough. Managing phosphate levels is easiest on pools with DE or cartridge filters, low evaporation rates, and no leaks. The reason is that most utility water contains significant levels of phosphates. As a result phosphate remover must be added to the pool EVERY time you add fill water, unless you are filling from a well or other untreated water source.

There are two other problems.

1. The available tests are finicky and do not measure the levels of phosphates in incoming water, where PO4 > 1,000 ppb, well. It can be done, but requires PRECISE dilution with distilled water.

2. The phosphate removal products on the market are disappointing in quality. Only the Orenda PR-10000 product seems to offer a decent price/performance ratio.

That said, phosphate management seems to offer the ONLY relatively easy, side-effect free method of managing mustard algae in that fraction of pools that suffer recurring episodes.

=> Ammonia based products (Yellow Out, etc.) generate high levels of the VERY irritating monochloramine, and screw up chlorine management downstream of their use.

=> Bromide based products (Yellow Treat, etc.) are not especially effective against mustard algae, and make it impossible to stabilize the halogen (chlorine + bromine from converted bromide) residual, resulting in huge chlorine demand downstream.

=> Raising FC levels to 30 or 40% of the CYA level works, but not instantly, and can leave pools at levels that can bleach swimwear and some pool liners for days after treatment, depending on the initial CYA level

=> High levels of copper ARE effective, but they are ALSO effective at staining pools and turning hair green.

=> Borates help with other forms of algae, but apparently are only marginally effective with respect to mustard algae. However, other than cost, there is no downside to their use.


I just realized that I have been assuming people knew what I know, and have been failing to mention PHYSICAL BRUSHING OF THE POOL IS ESSENTIAL, regardless of which mode of chemical treatments for mustard algae you follow.


If you have mustard algae, you MUST brush!

[Big Splash]

I just realized that I have been assuming people knew what I know, and have been failing to mention PHYSICAL BRUSHING OF THE POOL IS ESSENTIAL, regardless of which mode of chemical treatments for mustard algae you follow.


If you have mustard algae, you MUST brush!

Got ya'

I'll keep brushing just like Mamma said :) Works for your teeth and your pool.

Thanks Ben.