Pool chemistry

[jcarroca]

I am new at this stuff so please bare with me. I bought a HTH 5 test kit the other day. This is my reults.

CL=>5ppm
ph=7.5 to 7.8
TA=100ppm
Total hardness=0 I believe. When 5 drops were added solution did not change color, suppose to be red to indicate hardness.
CYA=>100ppm liquid was little below the 100 mark on the tube.

Vinyl pool 16X32 IG. Hardness range should be from 200-800pmn and CYA should be 30-50ppm. My chlorine is always high deep yellow color. I shocked pool 1 week prior to memorial day weekend and have been using an automated hayward chlorinator and trichloro 3" pucks set at between 0 and 1. My chlorine does not seem to drop off even though I have the Chlorinator set very low. Where is my problem, or Do I have a problem? Water is brilliantly clear. Any comments/suggestions would be grealy appreciated.

[waterbear]

Some TA tests can suffer interfernce from high chlorine levels. retest when you know the chlorine is 5 ppm or less.
Ditto for pH test!

[Watermom]

Several comments. Your cya is really high. With a cya over 100, you have a couple of choices. 1 - You can do a partial drain and try and lower it. Or - 2 - you can keep the high cya and just run higher than normal chlorine. Check the post at the following link for more about that. At any rate, you need to quit using the trichlor pucks as they will continue to make your cya climb.

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=365


If you decide to just run higher than normal chlorine readings, you will need to be able to more accurately tell your chlorine reading. I suggest buying Ben's kit at his www.poolsolutions.com website. It is what most of us use and is the best kit you can buy. Or at least, you can dilute your sample and make your test kit read higher. Mix one part pool water with one part distilled water, test as usual and then multiply the result by 2. If you still need to go higher, mix one part pool water and two parts distilled, and then multiply the result by 3, etc.

Calcium hardness is irrelevent for a vinyl pool and even for a concrete/gunite pool, the range is 200-400, not 200-800.

Hope this helps.

[waste]

I am new at this stuff so please bare with me. I bought a HTH 5 test kit the other day. This is my reults.

CL=>5ppm
ph=7.5 to 7.8
TA=100ppm
Total hardness=0 I believe. When 5 drops were added solution did not change color, suppose to be red to indicate hardness.
CYA=>100ppm liquid was little below the 100 mark on the tube.

Vinyl pool 16X32 IG. Hardness range should be from 200-800pmn and CYA should be 30-50ppm. My chlorine is always high deep yellow color. I shocked pool 1 week prior to memorial day weekend and have been using an automated hayward chlorinator and trichloro 3" pucks set at between 0 and 1. My chlorine does not seem to drop off even though I have the Chlorinator set very low. Where is my problem, or Do I have a problem? Water is brilliantly clear. Any comments/suggestions would be grealy appreciated.

J, let me be the first to tell you to stop filling the CL200 (220) tab chlorinator and switch to bleach only for chlorine. The tabs you are using will drive your cya way up (though even the 'experts' on this forum can't agree on what the best level is we all agree that 100+ is too much), and tend to turn your pool water into an acid bath (the tabs have a very low [2. someting pH] and eat any metals in the system and pool area. You don't need any calcium in a vinyl pool. Take a look at the first post, it's stickied, in the "Chlorine" section of this forum and you'll find Ben's Best Guess chart on chlorine levels vs CYA levels - very helpful. Also give the mother site to this one POOLSOLUTIONS a good read through to find out what Ben, our mentor and administrator, says about various pool issues, including chemistry.
The chlorine doesn't drop because the CYA is 'locking' it up, it's reactivity (to UV, organics and viruses) has been reduced to a snails pace - in short, it can't do it's job at it's current level. Though the water is clear now, this may allow for infections to be passed on or an algae bloom. Though I have a fair knowledge of pool chemistry, I'm not an expert, there are people here that actually understand what's going on - l'll leave it at this until one of them comes along. Welcome to the forum! I'll keep my eye on this and if you don't receive more info, I'll call on a few of the experts to help you. - Waste

[jcarroca]

I am really upset at my situation. I am hoping that my CYA numbers are lower than what I tested. I bought 40 lbs ($$$) of these pucks becuase both the pool contractor and the pool shop told me they were the best maintenance product that I can use. Why do trichloro pucks have CYA. I know this stuff sells like hot cakes and I got a good deal for the bulk quanity (Atleast I thought I did). Where will I get if complain to my pool store. Why am I the only one with this problem. Is there chlorine pucks with out CYA. I don't want to get rid of my chlorinator.

[aylad]

There are chlorine (cal-hypo) pucks without CYA, but YOU CANNOT USE THEM IN YOUR INLINE CHLORINATOR, EVEN IF YOU CLEAN IT WELL FIRST!!! You run a serious risk of explosion and injury if you try. The chlorinator you have is designed for trichlor, and trichlor only. And no, trichlor isn't available without CYA.

If it makes you feel any better, you're not the only one with this problem--it is a very common problem among people that trust their pool store to balance their water for them--but forget that pool store people make their money by selling you stuff to fix problems! Trichlor is not a bad thing, if you understand the chemistry behind it. If you have a pool with low CYA and a pH trending upward, trichlor pucks are exactly what you need to fix it. HOwever, if your CYAis already that high, use of the trichlor will only drive it higher, requiring you to use more and more chlorine as a maintanance level, as Watermom said. If you want to continue to use the chlorinator, I suggest that you drain/refill a large enough quantity of water (not all at the same time unless you use the sheet method) to get your CYA back down to20-30 or so, and then set your chlorinator at the lowest setting. Toward the end of the summer you may find yourself having to supplement with bleach, but that's one of the caveats of trichlor.

Janet

[aquarium]

I am really upset at my situation. I am hoping that my CYA numbers are lower than what I tested. I bought 40 lbs ($$$) of these pucks becuase both the pool contractor and the pool shop told me they were the best maintenance product that I can use. Why do trichloro pucks have CYA. I know this stuff sells like hot cakes and I got a good deal for the bulk quanity (Atleast I thought I did). Where will I get if complain to my pool store. Why am I the only one with this problem. Is there chlorine pucks with out CYA. I don't want to get rid of my chlorinator.

Nope, you're not the only one with this problem. :p

The CYA addition from the trichlor appears to be a recurring issue for a lot of people here. Click on my user name and read the posts that have CYA in their titles. I got some good advice here, and I'm new at this game too.

Lowe's wants $96 for a 40 pound tub of trichlor pucks.

TW

[JohnT]

I am really upset at my situation. I am hoping that my CYA numbers are lower than what I tested. I bought 40 lbs ($$$) of these pucks becuase both the pool contractor and the pool shop told me they were the best maintenance product that I can use. Why do trichloro pucks have CYA. I know this stuff sells like hot cakes and I got a good deal for the bulk quanity (Atleast I thought I did). Where will I get if complain to my pool store. Why am I the only one with this problem. Is there chlorine pucks with out CYA. I don't want to get rid of my chlorinator.

They wouldn't be trichlor if they didn't have CYA. That's why most of us are using bleach. It isn't as easy as a chlorinator, but it doesn't have the side-effects. The only difference between us (and I'm including you) and the rest of the pool owners out there is that we're aware of the problem.

[jcarroca]

I am trying to understand what caused my elevated CYA #'s. I have had this pool for 2.5 years, run it only for 3 months out of the year and use ~ 2-3 trichloro pucks evey 2 weeks for maintenance and shock with granular chlorine. I am taking a sample of my water to a local pool store and see what he says.

[waste]

J, until you can accuratly test the water yourself, taking it to a reliable pool store that does free testing with reliable and calibrated equipment is your best option - you need to know what your chem values are. If they try to sell you a bunch of stuff, don't buy it, bring the numbers they give you here and let the good folks help you, without spending $$$. If on the other hand, you want to keep your pool builder and pool store's wallets full - that is your choice and I wish you well with your pool and shed full of chems.

What you seem to need is POP (pool owner patience) - a problem that has been caused over the course of years can't be errased in a couple of days nor with the addition of 'miracle product "X"' You're on the right track comming here and taking control of your pool, but it takes time - if you stick with it, by the end of the summer you'll know more about pool water chemistry than either your builder or the pool store tester!

[Watermom]

I am trying to understand what caused my elevated CYA #'s.

That is easy. Using trichlor pucks. Many people think that using the pucks is the only way and so they do it without realizing that the pucks are stabilized and thus with each puck, add more and more cya into the pool. At some point, the cya level will reach a point where the '"recommended" chlorine level of 1-3 (which it seems is what most pool stores tell their customers) is insufficient and they then begin to have algae problems. Take a look at the chart at the following link and you'll see how cya (stabilizer) levels and needed chlorine levels are related.

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=365

[ivyleager]

have been using an automated hayward chlorinator and trichloro 3" pucks set at between 0 and 1. My chlorine does not seem to drop off even though I have the Chlorinator set very low.

I, too, have a Hayward inline chlorinator.....however, I no longer use it. It put too much chlorine in to the pool. I'd keep it set at low, and somehow ended up w/ anywhere from 5-10ppm. Tried turning it to off, and it continued to dump chlorine in pool. I do believe that this is a recurring problem w/ these chlorinators. Bad design.

I used to shock pool w/ granular product which also had stabilizer (CYA) in it. Heck, was shocking 2x/month the first summer, even if I had no CC reading.

In effect, I was getting way too much CYA in my pool. It's still 100ppm, and I've been using bleach only since last June. No drop off over the winter for me.

Pool store water testing results HOPEFULLY will show your CYA to be much lower, but that may be wishful thinking.

Good luck.

CaryB
Go "Canes!!

[jcarroca]

Haven't gone to the pool store to get my official results yet. I am waiting to see if my chlorine levels drop off. This is week 2 of no additional chlorine from either granular or chlorinator. Tested water and still bright/dark yellow above the 10ppm from the 5 hth test kit. Water is still brilliantly clear and being used by my family, though it doesn't make me rest easy. When can I expect to see the levels drop off, will it be gradual or right away. Lately where I live, central mass we have been getting hot humid full sun conditions. I wish there is something more concrete that I could do short of draining the pool.

[gitchesum]

That is easy. Using trichlor pucks. Many people think that using the pucks is the only way and so they do it without realizing that the pucks are stabilized and thus with each puck, add more and more cya into the pool. At some point, the cya level will reach a point where the '"recommended" chlorine level of 1-3 (which it seems is what most pool stores tell their customers) is insufficient and they then begin to have algae problems. Take a look at the chart at the following link and you'll see how cya (stabilizer) levels and needed chlorine levels are related.

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=365


This is EXACTLY what happened in my case.

Pool was nice and birght when I bought the house. Previous owner left what chemicals hadn't been used yet. I brought samples to the pool store and let them run them and tell me what I needed to do to keep it that way. Started getting an algae problem that never would completely go away. That prompted more trips to the pool store for even more costly chemicals. I just recently spent over $200 on granular shock, 3" pucks, and a product called "Green to Clean". Still have spots of green on the perimeter walls of the pool.

Decided to take things in my own hands. Another member referred me over to this place.

Tested my water and found I had a CYA of well over 100, I could only get about 3/4" of water in the test vial before the black dot would disappear.


Drained 9000 gallons last night(half the pool) and refilled overnight. Stopping on the way home to stock up on bleach and I'm going to have this pool nice and clear before the big party on July 2nd.

[jcarroca]

Finally have gone to the pool store and here are my results,

CYA>>> 65
TC>>>> 0.2
FC>>>> 0.2
Ph>>>> 7
TA>>>> 42
Adj Alka> 22
THard>>>179


Pool guy said I have nothing to worry about my CYA#. He said that the range is 30 to 200. I told him that I didn't want to use any trichloro tabs because it would increase my stabilizer. He pretty much told me that I was crazy. Any way I shocked my pool and dropped about 25lbs of baking soda. Pool water is still brilliantly clear w/o issues. Also, I got some calcium hypochlorite 4" pucks and placed these in my chlorinator. I haven't used trichloro for a while so i know I am OK. This stuff though seems to disolve quite rapidy, does not stay in there for a week like the bucket indicates. (I think I am seeing non disolved chlorine dust in the bottom of my pool) However, it also says that it should be used in the skimmer. Does anyone see a problem with using it in the skimmer. Is it a problem to use it in the chlorinator. I like it for maintenance purposes. Will I have calcium hardness issues if I continue to use it.

[Watermom]

Cya at 65 is OK as long as you keep your chlorine between 5-10 all the time. Having it at 0.2 is an open invitation to algae. (No more trichlor for your pool.)

Your ph is a little low. Add a fourth of a box of Borax slowly to the skimmer. Retest it after it has circulated for several hours and redose if needed to get ph to 7.4-7.6.

I'm not the expert on chlorinators, so I'll let someone else address that question. People typically don't have issues with calcium hardness until they get above 500 or so, although it does vary.

[aylad]

You are taking a very big, and potentially serious risk by putting cal hypo in a trichlor feeder, unless it's the floating type. If it's the type that is plumbed into your system, I would remove the cal hypo, and do it now. The plumbed feeders are designed only for trichlor, and the heat and pressure that is generated when the pucks dissolve are not the same--possibly resulting in explosion and injury, since the cal hypo creates more heat. And no, the newer cal hypo pucks don't last like they say they do, even in the skimmer. Hth managed to find a way to screw up a perfectly good product by removing the plastic capsule that used to make the puck perform as advertised.

Janet

[CarlD]

Also, I got some calcium hypochlorite 4" pucks and placed these in my chlorinator. I haven't used trichloro for a while so i know I am OK. This stuff though seems to disolve quite rapidy, does not stay in there for a week like the bucket indicates.

You were specifically told NOT TO DO THIS!!!!!

You are risking an explosion, injuries, even death by not listening to us!

CAL-HYPO IS HIGHLY REACTIVE--MORE SO THAN OTHER CHLORINES AND MIXING IT WITH TRI-CHLOR IN YOUR CHLORINATOR IS A RECIPE FOR TRAGEDY!

WE CANNOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU DISREGARD THIS ADVICE!

I strongly recommend that other posters refuse to give you further advice if you continue to put cal-hypo in your chlorinator!

[DavidD]

Finally have gone to the pool store and ....Pool guy said I have nothing to worry about my CYA#........ He said that the range is 30 to 200........ I told him that I didn't want to use any trichloro tabs ......He pretty much told me that I was crazy...

jcarroca,

You were originally given excellent advice earlier this month from long time members and moderators of this forum. These individuals are not profiting from you in any way and have absolutely no reason to steer you in the wrong direction or cause you any grief whatsoever. I personally consider them more of an "expert" than ANY pool store employee, chemical company tech or ANYone else in the pool industry. They are using a tried and true approach to pool maintenance and have tried to let you in on it. You obviously want to pick and choose. That's fine, your choice. It is however a bad decision. One that could possibly have detrimental repercussions to you, your family or innocent passers by if your feeder explodes. Did the pool store guy warn you of this? I'd guess not. Is he out to get you? I'd guess not. Does he not care about you or your families well being? I, being the eternal optimist that I am, would say he does. Why then would he let you do this? The answer is he does not know any better. He is an expert, with "knowledge" gained through pamphlets and chemical company's information. Monday through Friday 9:00 am to 5:00 pm who's main interest is making a living. "My" experts, that gave you great advice, are experts with knowledge gained through experience. They are experts on their own time with experience in health, chemistry and many other pertinent fields. I'll bet "your" expert thinks that bleach will ruin your pool even though he sells a stronger version of the exact same chemical in his store.
I have managed to keep my pool crystal clear, free of algae and absolutely trouble free for three straight years thanks to this forum and "my" experts and have been told by many friends that I'm now their "expert". Funny how the "expert" term gets thrown around. Anyway, I blush, :o say "Aw no" and direct them to my secret, this forum and Ben's test kit. That's it.
I too use trichlor pucks in a Hayward CL220 feeder. Two pucks one week, then none the next alternating or when A bunch of people are coming over to enjoy a long day of fun in the sun. Also on vacations etc. The only difference between you and I is knowledge. That's it. I know what the side effects are and keep a close eye to insure my CYA does not go above 50 ppm and add borax if needed due the the acidic nature of the pucks. Do yourself a favor, read back through this entire post from the beginning. Read the tips at this link http://www.poolsolutions.com/tips/10things.html. and give yourself a fighting chance of low cost, no trouble pool maintenance. And take that cal hypo out of the feeder. Be sure to turn the pump off, turn the feeder to the highest setting, let the water drain out of it. Open it slowly, preferably with goggles and do not breath the vapors!

Dave

P.S.- Ever wonder why the chemical companies supply free water testing apparatus and the pool stores offer free testing?????

My numbers yesterday evening, before adding .8 (less than one gallon) gallons of bleach:

FC-2
CC<.5
TC >2
PH 7.5
ALK 100
CH 150
CYA <40
Temp 82
16k fiberglass I/G pool

[PoolDoc]

Not only is it unsafe to use cal hypo in a trichlor feeder, it's now unsafe to use trichlor in that feeder.

There are two problems:

Any cal hypo residue left can react, possibly violently, with trichlor, if trichlor is added again.
Cal hypo products lime dust, which is very likely to clog the trichlor feeder, and render it unable to operate properly or safely.I'm locking this thread down, to prevent further discussion of how to misuse a trichlor feeder.

Ben
"PoolDoc"