Need help...still cloudy after more than a week...very hard water

[2inthecountry]

Hello from another newbie to BBB.
I have a 16 x 24 oval above ground pool with a sand filter. We have been using Softswim the past 2 summers. First year was fine, 2nd year was cloudy all summer and this year we opened with algae... so I found this and decided to convert. My well water is extremely hard so we use a water softener inside. After a week of following the instructions (started 6-14-14), adding tons of bleach, backwashing, scrubbing sides and cleaning regularly, the pool went through the gross stages and is now looking good, with the exception of remaining cloudiness. (I only had the simple tester and kept the cholorine a bright orange.) I finally got the good test kit yesterday (Taylor K 2006) and these are the numbers (first time so not sure how accurate?)

TC 3
FC 1
CC 2

TA 250
CH 575 (don't need this in a vinyl pool?)
PH 7.8
CYA ?(I tested once but was not cloudy so not sure if I did it right. Thought I'd check in before testing again)

We were gone for the weekend and I left "floaters" made from half-filled bleach bottles with a slits cut to "leach out". It obviously did not keep the shock level high enough:(

When putting these numbers in the pool calculator, it said to add muriatic acid and more bleach, which I will do this morning. It also said to replace 55% of the pool water! Really? Considering my hard water, I don't think that will help much.

The other factor is my filter. It was new last year and I added new sand. However, we get a lot of debris from trees, bugs, etc. and it looked really dirty this spring. I rinsed it well before starting it up, knowing I would need to replace the sand after conversion anyway. So, the new sand is ready and waiting until the water clears up.

Here are my questions:
1. What is probably causing the cloudiness? Hard water? Dirty filter? Not high enough shock level consistently?
2. Why does my PH read normal when the TA is so high?
3. What is my next step? If I add acid to adjust the PH and TA, will that delay the process of clearing or help?
4. CYA-Why is it non-existent and should I be adding some? I bought some last week. Since the tri-clor tabs have some CYA in them, would it be feasible to get some to keep it consistent?
5. Should I go ahead and change the sand so the filter works more efficiently, or would I have to change it again after it clears?

Everything I had read says to just use bleach and lots of it, but it seems adjustments need to be made. I'm just not sure the best plan of action at this point. I was hoping we would return from our trip to sparking water, but... not meant to be. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you!

[Watermom]

*IF* your numbers are right, then you are not finished with your conversion just yet. You need to maintain shock level until you can go from sundown one evening to within an hour of sunrise the next morning without losing more than 1ppm of chlorine AND you have no greater than 0.5ppm of CC AND your water is clear. Then, we usually suggest keeping the chlorine high for one additional day after that before letting it drift down.

Don't bother retesting the CYA at this point. You don't have any in there and you will just be wasting your reagents. After you conversion is complete, you'll need to add some CYA directly but don't do it yet.

Do you have some trichlor tabs now? If so, are they wrapped or unwrapped?

Part of you problem may also be your high CH, TA, and pH. That is not a good combination. You can't do much about your CH since the only real way to lower that is to drain but then refilling will bring it right back up. But, you can do something about the pH and TA. Please read both of these links about the process of lowering TA. http://pool9.net/alk-step AND http://pool9.net/muriatic/

(You'll need to test the pH only when your chlorine is no higher than 10ppm or else you will get an inaccurate reading.)

Don't change the sand yet. Wait until you are totally done with the conversion.

Here are some testing demo videos that may be helpful to you. http://pool9.net/K2006-vid/

Hope this helps. Keep us posted how things are going.

Welcome to the Pool Forum!

(Until your registration is completed, you won't be able to see the rest of the forum while you are logged in. So, copy the links and paste them into a browser window after you first log out.)

[2inthecountry]

Thanks. It looks like I am on the right track, then. I got it back up to shock level and bought a bunch more bleach to be sure it stays there. I did add 18 oz. muriatic acid (pool calc said to add 22 oz.) just because I know how hard the water is. But I won't do anymore until after it is completed.

CYA is the only test that uses a lot of reagents, so I'm glad you confirmed that it isn't necessary.

I don't have any tabs, just thought about it. Years ago, we had a round pool that we kept a dispenser with tabs in all the time since I was busy with lots of little kids. Convenient but not necessary?

I watched the videos along with some others to be sure I was testing correctly. That helped.

So, there is progress from this morning. I can actually see something on the bottom and the 4th rung of the ladder! There is hope!

Thank you. I will be testing again this evening.

[Watermom]

Tabs are actually a source of problems for some people. Yes, they are convenient but what gets a lot of people in trouble is that they don't realize that those tabs continuously add CYA to the water and the higher your CYA gets, the higher you have to keep your chlorine to keep algae at bay. And, then they come here and tell us that "I kept my chlorine right where I always have and it has always worked before but now I have algae!" You can read more about the CYA/Chlorine connection here:> http://pool9.net/cl-cya/

Let us know if you have more questions. We'll be here!

[PoolDoc]

Membership upgraded . . .

. . . the 'gold standard' for completed conversion is the overnight chlorine test:
+ Raise your chlorine above 10 ppm, late in they day.
+ Measure the level carefully near sunset.
+ Retest in the AM no later than 1 hour after sunrise.
+ If you've lost less than 0.5 ppm of chlorine, your conversion is complete, or very nearly complete, and you can change your sand.

[2inthecountry]

Chlorine has been at shock level the past 2 days, however my TA 300 and CH 750 are still very high. PH 8. I have added water to be able to backwash sufficiently and that doesn't help the hardness. Would that be causing a problem I need to deal with?

[Watermom]

Yes, the cloudiness could be in part to your high pH, TA, and CH. Read about the process to lower pH and TA in the following links:>
http://pool9.net/alk-step AND http://pool9.net/ma/

Your CH has jumped a lot since your readings in your post above. Have you used any products with calcium in them such as cal-hypo or is all that from your water supply!? (Well or city water?)

How are your chlorine (FC and CC) readings this morning compared to last night?

[2inthecountry]

I will work with muriatic acid to reduce the TA and follow the other suggestions. It is higher because of adding new water, nothing else.

Chlorine levels were the same at 20 ppm. However, my husband did add another gal of bleach last night. We are having guests Sun. so I am keeping it high to be sure, maybe too high?

I will monitor it closely, as suggested, before sunset and 1 hr. after sunrise.

I can get in, mix it up and vacuum again this afternoon to help aeration.

[Watermom]

Report back tomorrow your results of the overnight test.

[PoolDoc]

With almost no stabilizer present, 20 ppm of chlorine is rather high. FC=20 *and* CYA=0 is high enough to damage swimwear and be irritating to some swimmers.

BUT, if you *really* have no stabilizer, you'll lose almost all your chlorine in an hour under full sun. So, that's a sort of the test. FC=20 and CYA=20 is very different and NOT a problem, even if still rather high.

[2inthecountry]

Yesterday, I added 32 oz. muriatic acid in small doses. I cleaned and vacuumed well and went in to stir the waters. There was still debris and cloudiness but I could see the bottom through it.

This morning, it it still cloudy, but the CH has improved and the FC remained at 15 from last night. TA is same and PH is way over (inaccurate with FC so high, right?)

Last night: This morning:
FC 15 FC 15
TA 275 TA 275
CH 750 CH 425

I really think the filter is not doing its job efficiently and needs a sand replacement and considering adding salt to help with the high TA?

[PoolDoc]

If this --- CH: 750 => 425 --- is accurate, your filter is doing a heck of a job removing suspended calcium particles. You can test it with the DE test: http://pool9.net/de-test/

Retest your pH with 1/2 pool water and 1/2 distilled water (gallon jug from Walmart: MUST be "distilled"). Distilled water changes the pH very little, but reduces the chlorine by 1/2, so you can get valid results.

However it appears that you are doing a "lime softening" process without intending it: given your very high CH, this is a GOOD thing. Do not stop! What's happening, apparently, is the high pH + the high TA are continuing to produce calcium particles that your filter is removing. This is GOOD!

So . . . don't add any more muriatic acid, now. Continue cleaning your pool. After you complete the DE test -- assuming the filter 'passes' the test, you can continue to add DE to help the filter remove very fine particles. It will result in more frequent backwashes, however.

NOTE: salt has NOTHING to do with TA, and has no effect on it. WaterMom already gave you the link to the alkalinity page -- you need to read it.

BUT, do NOT try to lower your TA yet; doing so will STOP the CH removal process!

Instead:
1. Complete the process of removing all the debris from your pool; vacuum up calcium dust as needed.
2. Complete the pool equipment form: http://pool9.net/pf-equip-form/ That will help us know how to help you.
3. Keep your chlorine high-ish
4. Test your FILL water, and report those results. You only need to test pH, TA and CH

[2inthecountry]

Ok. I will keep at it and do the DE test. BTW, it was SALT I was considering to help with TA, not sand. Just been reading about it making the water feel softer.

Thanks for your help!

[PoolDoc]

I meant "salt"; I typed "sand".

Salt will make the water feel differently; many people describe the difference as "softer" or "slick". BUT, that has nothing to do with TA.

[2inthecountry]

Ok. That makes more sense. Yes, there are little white particles all through the water. Must be the calcium.

PH tested at 7.8 using your method. Good.

I filled out the pool equipment form.

FILL water:
PH 7.6
TA 325
CH 375

Need to go to the store to get DE for that test. Still going....
.

[PoolDoc]

Note volume revision -- formula for oval pools is r1 x r2 x π x water depth x 7.46 gal/cft . On your pool that is 8 x 12 x 3.14 x 3.5 x 7.46 = 7,870 or ~8,000 gallons.

If your ACTUAL water depth is 4', then it would be 9,000 gallons.

Is this Waterway package what you have? http://www.waterwayplastics.com/wp-content/uploads/807-0094.0212.pdf

[2inthecountry]

Your picture looks like my filter/pump but is is Premium Blue instead of Carefree. Don't know the difference offhand.

I got DE and added it. It "poofed" some out of the return, then cleared up. Pressure is 25 lbs. which is normal as far as I know. (Don't remember where it was last year.)

Waiting to see if there is an improvement...

[PoolDoc]

Your picture looks like my filter/pump but is is Premium Blue instead of Carefree. Don't know the difference offhand..

Probably a sort of private label for your retailer. This likely means you can use Waterway parts.



I got DE and added it. It "poofed" some out of the return, then cleared up. Pressure is 25 lbs. which is normal as far as I know.

The pressure is too high -- that suggests your pump is too big for your filter. That's very, very common on AG pools. The DE test results would suggest that your filter does have some problems, but is still working well enough to capture the DE, after the first batch 'sticks'.

You might try another cup -- if it does not 'leak', that's confirmation of my interpretation.

Regardless, you'll get better filtration if you slow the water down, by putting a valve in the line between the pump and the filter, and throttling it somewhat. Your filter has also probably been losing some sand during backwashes and is a bit low.

[2inthecountry]

Hmm...the pump and filter came together in the same package.

I wonder if the sand is "channeling"?

[Watermom]

Hmm...the pump and filter came together in the same package.
Also very common. We see this all the time on the forum ---- people who bought a pump and filter combo as part of an AG pool package that were badly mismatched.

[PoolDoc]

Channeling can ALSO result from an oversized pump.

You have to understand, pool dealers want to sell pools, more than they want to sell pools that work. American customers tend to be much more impressed by "MORE HORSEPOWER" than they are by "BIGGER FILTER"! Plus it's cheaper to 'upgrade' to a 1.5HP pump from a 3/4 HP pump, than it is to upgrade from an 18" filter to a 24" filter.

[2inthecountry]

So, not sure what to do but wait at this point. Pool water is still cloudy. Could I go ahead and change the sand and see what happens? Surely the biguanide is gone by now? Sock with more chlorine?

[PoolDoc]

Yes, probably.

And that will also answer the question, "Have you lost sand, because of the oversized pump?"

Be *sure* to use labeled filter sand . . . do NOT get Quikrete sand from Lowes, etc.

[2inthecountry]

Yes, the correct sand is ready and waiting. Just had a big rainstorm, so will probably do it in the morning. Thank you.

[swimdaddy]

Does someone make a tablet that deos not have CYA or calcium in it? I have not seen anything yet, but the convenience of a tab in a feeder without the other junk would be great.

[PoolDoc]

Nope.

I suppose it might be possible to make tablets of lithium hypochlorite, but I've never heard of having that done.

And, now that salt water chlorine generators are the 'go-to' solution for convenience, I very much doubt that it ever will. Of course, it might be interesting to find out what high levels of lithium chloride would do to swimmers, given that it's a psychotropic drug, used in times past to treat bipolar disorder! S-)

[2inthecountry]

Hi,
After a long weekend, some important updates (and realizations) have been made:
1. We changed the sand in the filter.
2. I noticed the (defective) pump gauge showed 10 psi when it was off. So, the actual psi was 15, not 25.
3. Had a great pool party, in spite of the still cloudy water. (Tested ok enough to swim, fyi.)
4. Realized that we had been running the filter on the wrong setting so the water was just circulating instead of going through the filter sand...duh!
5. Added more bleach and DE.
6. Looking MUCH better already!

It is ironic that I have been doing so much research and testing, when most of the problem should have been obvious! Thank you for your patience and help. I am hopeful that the crystal clear sparkling water is just around the corner:)

[PoolDoc]

Yeah!

[2inthecountry]

I can see the bottom clearly enough to effectively vacuum! I need to keep it at shock level for another day after it clears completely, right? When do I add CYA?

[PoolDoc]

Yes, if your CYA is still less than 40 ppm, you need more. You can use dichlor.

Or, you add stabilizer directly. It dissolves SLOWLY, and mainly when the pump is on. If you add stabilizer to the skimmer, do it after backwashing, so you can avoid backwashing again for 3 - 4 days.

[2inthecountry]

Happy 4th of July!! My pool is finally beautiful, sparkling clear and perfect temp! I am working on balancing the FC and CYA and getting into a routine of testing. Once it is stabilized, how often do I check the CYA, PH, CH? Daily for the FC, right? I'm SO excited to have my pool back without all the gunk. THANKS!

[PoolDoc]

Unless you do some thing to add CH, you don't need to check it: it won't change unless water is removed from the pool.

Until your TA is in a more normal range, you might want to check it every couple of weeks.

CYA, again, won't change unless you do something to change it. So if you drain a lot of water, backwash a lot, or are using stabilized chlorine, you might need to test it occasionally.

pH & chlorine? Check it with the K2006 every few days; use a cheapo OTO / phenol red kit to check it daily.

With more experience, you can extend your test intervals.

[Watermom]

I'm really happy to hear that your pool is clear!! Congrats! Now it is time to enjoy it! :)

[2inthecountry]

The overview of the testing routine is very helpful. I am confident that my pool will continue to look great so we CAN enjoy it, instead of being a pain all summer. This forum has saved me much time and money. Thank you again! Happy summer!