When to admit defeat and start over?

[SpacemanSpiff]

Hi all.
We're on our 2nd season with an 18'x48" Intex 'baloon type' AGP that got away from us over the winter and opened very badly. Lots of algae.

Before I go into details about what all chemicals we've thrown in and what our measurements are [or lack thereof], I have to question whether it's even worth it.

We've been at this for over 4 weeks and have spent more money on filters, supplies and chemicals than the $47.00 it would cost to simply drain, clean and refill, not to mention not being able to actually use the thing.

By haphazardly following advice from this site, we've managed to kill off most of the algae to the point the water was mostly clear, with just some greenish/brown dust piles on the bottom. The 'debris vacuum' the pool comes with is worthless on that, so I picked up a 1½" hose and vacuum head, and hooked it straight to the Intex pump/filter. It vacs up a little, but we quickly lose suction. I don't think the Intex pump is strong enough to draw through 25' of hose.

In the process of vacuuming from inside the pool, we stirred up all the bottom dust and made the water cloudy again. We also noticed that quite a bit of the dust was flowing right through the filter and back into the water.

So, the question at this stage is, should we keep on keepin' on, or drain the thing and start over? And should we buy a bigger pump? [such as http://smile.amazon.com/Swim-Time-NE6151B-Replacement-Ground/dp/B00B4ZNKO8/ref=smi_www_rcolv2_go_smi?_encoding=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0 ]
The Intex pump seems to do the job as long as the algae is under control, but if it does get out of control, it fails miserably.

[Watermom]

If you can, it will be faster to dump it and start over. Then, with your freshly filled pool, you can use our Super Simple Start-up Recipe to get the chemistry started on the right foot. http://pool9.net/sspool-info/

Those little pools are actually harder to deal with than a big pool at times. It is critical that you not let algae have a chance to get started because, as you have found out, it is extremely difficult to clear up.

Let us know if you have other questions.

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Welcome to the Pool Forum!

[SpacemanSpiff]

Thanks. That's what we thought.

Now, is it worth replacing the Intex pump with the one in my earlier post?
Any firsthand with that pump?

http://amazon.com/Swim-Time-NE6151B-Replacement-Ground/dp/B00B4ZNKO8/ref=smi_www_rcolv2_go_smi?_encoding=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0

[Watermom]

I'm going to ask Dave, who is one of our support team members, to take a look at your question. He is more familiar with Intex equipment than I am.

[BigDave]

That pump (by specification) would be way too much for your pool.

What filter were you considering? Intex makes some sand filters that would be appropriate. The Hayward VL would also be appropriate.

[PoolDoc]

. . . membership updated.

New filter cartridges will help, but a bigger pump by itself will not. If you want to improve filtration, but a pump + filter like this:
Intex Sand Filter Pump 2900 Gallons (GPH) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00GSPHS1U/scouscho-20/)

But, for $47, I'd absolutely start over . . . even if you get the new pump. It's hard to clean up algae, and harder to clean up chemical hobo soup, which it sounds like you have.

Good luck!

[SpacemanSpiff]

Thanks all.
After some deliberation [and laziness on my part] we've decided to try and fix this rather than starting over.

The green is gone, but it is now milky, and we can no longer see the squares pattern on the bottom.
We can see about a 2' dia pile of something dusty looking [dead algae?] in the center.
We currently only have a 3-way test kit, but can get the water tested tomorrow at a pool store.
As of right now we have:
CL ~ 10 [using distilled water method]
pH ~ 7.7
BM ~ 22

Over the last several weeks we've added:
2½ 1# pkgs of Aquachem Shock and Shock + [we can't remember the exact combination]
1 box of Baking Soda [which I can't recall why]
2 boxes of Borax
2 gal Walmart's Finest Liquid Bleach
a few handfuls of 1" chlorine tablets in a floating duck [he wanted to help :) ]
2 loads of 1" cl tabs in the top ½ of the filter. [OEM Intex pump/type a/c filter. mdl # avail on request]

The only things added in the last 4-5 days was 1g of bleach as we still saw some algae and the cl had fallen to 0, and 1 box Borax this afternoon to get the pH up.
The CL has been over 10 since we added the bleach, but it's coming down little by little.
We take the cover off for several hours each day to burn off the excess CL.

The questions on the floor:
Are we on the right track?
What is our next step?
With CL@10 and pH@7.7, can we swim even though it's milky? It's way hot here [90+ every day] and the pool would be nice. :)
It's just two adults.

Thanks again! :)

[Watermom]

There is one really critical testing result that is needed or we are not really going to be able to help and that is a CYA reading. Without knowing that, we can't know how high you should be keeping your chlorine.

The test kit that we recommend is the Taylor K2006 or 2006C (better buy). But, it is not available locally. You can get it through this link, though. http://pool9.net/tk/

But, in the meantime, go to Walmart and see if they have the HTH 6-Way drops-based kit (no test strips!) That kit does have a test for CYA.

(As far as laziness on your part, fixing this is actually going to be WAY harder than dumping it and starting over.)

Edit-- What is BM 22?

[SpacemanSpiff]

Ok, we're back from the pool store.
Our numbers are as follows:

FC = 12.05
TC > 15.66 [Their machine limit]
CC = 3.61
pH = 7.8
Hardness = 36
Alk = 104.3
CYA = 29
Copper = 0.1
Iron = 0.2
Borate = 24

Our Walmart is out of the 6-way kit, so a Taylor K2006 is on its way.
BM = 22 was a typo for BR, Borate. Sorry. [M and R are so close on the keyboard... :p ]

The pool store computer recommendation was to add:

7.5oz of pH Minus
10lb, 4oz Calcium Plus for the hardness
7.2oz Aquabrite Super Shock to bring down the TC
4oz Stabilizer

Talking to the pool store guy, he was basically, "just leave it alone. Don't add anything until the CC gets down around normal [from sun burn off/swimming], and then add Stabilizer.
He said the milkiness should go away in several days or so, and that, while not pretty, was nothing to stop swimming.

Does all this sound about right?

[Watermom]

Does all this sound about right?
Uhh, no.

We can tell from looking at your numbers that they are bogus. There is no testing that can give you reading to the nearest hundredth (two decimal positions). They do that to make it look so official but basically, it is meaningless for the most part. Then, they recommend that you add calcium to a vinyl pool. Why? Vinyl pools don't even need calcium.

Your pH and TA are fine. Leave them alone. Until you get your K2006 and can test yourself so we will really know what your numbers are, just try to maintain chlorine at about 15ppm. You can use the color chart at this link to help you estimate what 15ppm will look like on your tester since it will actually only read to 5ppm. http://pool9.net/oto-chart/
For reference, in your pool, each quart of 8.25% bleach will add about 3ppm of chlorine. Run the pump 24/7 and clean your filter as needed.

You do probably need more stabilizer but how much depends on what your reading is when you test it yourself. 4 oz. of stabilizer will only add about 5ppm of CYA to your pool. Assuming that your CYA is 29, which I doubt, then that would only put you at about 34 which is still too low. Wait to add any for now.

Once the kit arrives, test and post your numbers and someone here will help you decide what to do at that point.

[CarlD]

One thing to add is that if your FC number is correct, your TRUE pH is probably lower than 7.8, which is good. Watermom has it nailed.

[SpacemanSpiff]

Greetings all.
Our Unicel filters and Taylor K-2006 test kit arrived the other day.
I replaced the filter immediately. Didn't have a chance to test until now.

FC = 3.0
CC = .4
pH = 7.1
CYA = ~38

Note: We feel the CYA test is pretty subjective and depends a lot on incident light.
But we agreed it was around 38 when the black dot "disappeared".
We'll gladly accept hints for performing this test.

We haven't added any chemicals since my last post.
The water is still cloudy, but we can now see the squares pattern on the bottom.

Now what? :)

Um, just re-read Watermom's post about keeping FC ~15.
We failed. :(

[BigDave]

Not failed, but maybe losing. Get back on it. Persistence is key.

[SpacemanSpiff]

So, given our new numbers above, is there anything else we need do but get the FC to 15 and keep cleaning the filter?

[CarlD]

Couple of things:
1) 1 gallon of 8.25% bleach SHOULD add about 12ppm of FC to your pool
2) When you measure your FC and CC, use the 10ml line and not the 25ml line. You'll use up your reagents too fast and the .5 measure for each drop is more than accurate enough.
3) When measuring CYA do it the same way every time. I hold it at waist level and face into the sun. Then I spill the solution back into the squeeze bottle and do it again, at least once, sometimes twice, using the same solution until I'm satisfied I've gotten a good reading. The scale on the side is a log scale so halfway between 30 and 40 is NOT 35, it's less. Your guessing at "38" but it may be lower if it's not right on the "40" line.
4) If your FC is 3 and you add a gallon of 8.25% bleach to your pool you'll be (nominally) at 15.
5) You need to check and adjust your FC level at least 2x/day, preferably 3x until what you are fighting is dead. You CAN go a bit higher but may bleach the pool a bit.

[SpacemanSpiff]

Thanks, this helps a lot.
Will report back in a few days.
Hopefully with good news. :)

[Watermom]

Only one tweak to the good advice Carl gave you. When you test CYA, you want the sun at your back.

[SpacemanSpiff]

Only one tweak to the good advice Carl gave you. When you test CYA, you want the sun at your back.

Thanks, Watermom.

In order to get a definitive answer, I asked the Director of Education @ Taylor Technologies, Wayne Ivusich, and he was gracious enough to pass along this bit of information:

"the "correct" way to test for anything (not just CYA but for all the other tests, especially color-matching) is to NOT face the Sun. The Sun will alter you eyes' ability to match colors. The Sun should be behind you or on your shoulders. Never face the Sun. If it's an overcast day then it kinda doesn't matter!"

You might want to put that in a sticky as Taylor's Instruction Manual doesn't address it. :)

I don't know if we'll ever get our pool clear, but I'm certainly enjoying all the conversations about it.
There's some nice people in this business.

[PoolDoc]

Honestly, if you're not clear yet, you may want to consider draining, refilling, and then following the SSR (http://pool9.net/ssr/)

I've ofter said in the past that pools are not that hard, but that they aren't forgiving, either. That's doubly true with the soft-side pools, like the Intex. With the seriously undersized pumps and filters that can just barely keep up with a normal, there's simply no extra capacity for cleaning a mess.

If you have a cartridge filter, do make sure you get the Unicel cartridges, before you start up. Those seem to make quite a bit of difference.

[Watermom]

Honestly, if you're not clear yet, you may want to consider draining, refilling, and then following the SSR (http://pool9.net/ssr/)

Yeah, that's kinda what we thought and advised him up in post #2 in this thread. Especially since he said it would only cost $47 to do so! ;)




I don't know if we'll ever get our pool clear, but I'm certainly enjoying all the conversations about it.
There's some nice people in this business.
That's nice of you to say but......... we want you to get it clear so you can enjoy swimming. After all, that's what having a pool is all about!

[SpacemanSpiff]

Purely for clarification [pun intended], we have well water and a pressure pump that automatically kicks out if you try to fill a pool as it thinks there's a waterline break.
Our neighbors have city water @ much higher pressure and kindly allowed us to use their water and pay the $47 increase.
1. I don't want to bother the neighbors again unless absolutely necessary. [We just filled it last June]
2. I wanted to become educated in not only the proper way to start, but in what to do when things go awry.
So far, I believe I'm achieving the objectives, even though one wasn't intentional. :p

I would like to add, we're leaving on vacation for a few days, in a few days. Given the other numbers above and figuring I'll have the FC ~ 15 tonight [I added 1g bleach last night and will test when I get home], what can we do to best protect our efforts while we're gone?

[PoolDoc]

3 things:

1. Get some polyquat, and add a double dose just before you go. (You can add some now, if you think you have any traces of algae left). Here's the info page: http://pool9.net/polyquat/

2. Read up on borax and muriatic acid. http://pool9.net/borax/ http://pool9.net/ma/ Add 7 boxes of borax and 1.5 gallons of 31% muriatic acid to your pool. That will give you a borate level > 60 ppm. You can add all the borax and a gallon of the muriatic acid at once. Make sure the pump is on and that you can brush / swirl / otherwise dissolve the borax. (Walking around and brushing it, is good). Then add the remaining acid in decreasing doses till your pH is between 7.2 and 7.8.

Borax inhibits algae and remains permanently, unless drained.

3. Put in a clean cartridge before you leave.


Removing phosphates inhibits algae even more strongly, but you don't have time.